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I am telling you there is no trickle down economy. It is Hoarding Economy

By Nobody   Jun 18, 1:58pm   6 links   3,732 views   295 comments   watch (2)   quote      

http://www.msn.com/en-us/money/markets/the-hoarding-of-the-american-dream/ar-BBCKMQq?li=BBnb7Kz

It really doesn't make sense to give tax reduction to the rich and investors. The investors are motivated to invest, because
they are expecting a better return. The rich does not suffer from getting taxed more. In the end everyone wants to hoard.
Or they used that money that they hoard to invest in a system where they can squeeze more money from the middle class.

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256   Goran_K   415/415 = 100% civil   Jun 22, 11:11am  ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote    

Heraclitusstudent says

Ai will make most of humanity obsolete. This is happening. This is the trend.

Technology is going to keep progressing.

In the Matrix, Neo found a way to have a good relationship with the killer AI.

In Terminator, John Connor lead a successful resistance.

What is your solution?

257   Heraclitusstudent   260/260 = 100% civil   Jun 22, 11:26am  ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote    

Goran_K says

What is your solution?

Staying in the increasingly small set of people that profit.
What's yours?

258   Goran_K   415/415 = 100% civil   Jun 22, 11:36am  ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote    

Heraclitusstudent says

Staying in the increasingly small set of people that profit.

What's yours?

I don't believe your scenario has a chance of happening. Though it's an interesting sci-fi narrative.

259   iwog   1829/1831 = 99% civil   Jun 22, 1:25pm  ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote    

Goran_K says

I don't believe your scenario has a chance of happening. Though it's an interesting sci-fi narrative.

That's odd because it was the standard of civilization for about 1000 years.

Never again tho huh!

260   Heraclitusstudent   260/260 = 100% civil   Jun 22, 1:50pm  ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote    

"Those who dismiss the improbable are like the caterpillar, who setting up to cross a forest trail, refuses to believe it will be made into a freeway before he reaches the other side. “
Confucius.

261   Goran_K   415/415 = 100% civil   Jun 22, 1:51pm  ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote    

iwog says

That's odd because it was the standard of civilization for about 1000 years.

Never again tho huh!

AI robots suppressed humanity for 1000 years? What movie was that?

262   Goran_K   415/415 = 100% civil   Jun 22, 1:53pm  ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike   quote    

Heraclitusstudent says

"Those who dismiss the improbable are like the caterpillar, who setting up to cross a forest trail, refuses to believe it will be made into a freeway before he reaches the other side. “

Confucius.

“The main thing that I learned about conspiracy theory, is that conspiracy theorists believe in a conspiracy because that is more comforting. The truth of the world is that it is actually chaotic. The truth is that it is not The Iluminati, or The Jewish Banking Conspiracy, or the Gray Alien Theory.

The truth is far more frightening - Nobody is in control.

The world is rudderless.”
― Alan Moore

263   Heraclitusstudent   260/260 = 100% civil   Jun 22, 2:14pm  ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike   quote    

Just observe carefully:
- Globalization = winner take all, on the planet scale. Few winners, many losers.
- US corporations unspent cash level
- #U.S.’s contingent workforce—temps, on-call workers, contract company workers, independent contractors, freelancers—i.e. almost doubled in 20 years.
- 6 millions unfilled job openings: while we still need a lot of workers, the work now requires much higher education leaving many behind.
- the staggering decline in labor force participation by men of prime working age, 25 to 54.
- # of Americans on food stamps

The current level of machine learning tech means a wave a change at least equal to that caused by the Internet.
Indeed just like the Internet made available to a computer data from an other computer, allowing social & distributed applications, machine learning makes available to computers data that so far was processed 100% by humans, that is the vast majority of available data. This opens the door to rapid expansion of tech beyond where it stands today. While we are still in the early stages, I think we can’t escape a major new wave of automation.

264   Heraclitusstudent   260/260 = 100% civil   Jun 22, 2:16pm  ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote    

Goran_K says

The truth is far more frightening - Nobody is in control.

Let's just say there are several groups of Iluminati. They don't control everything - yet.

265   Goran_K   415/415 = 100% civil   Jun 22, 2:28pm  ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote    

Heraclitusstudent says

Just observe carefully:

- Globalization = winner take all, on the planet scale. Few winners, many losers.

- US corporations unspent cash level

- #U.S.’s contingent workforce—temps, on-call workers, contract company workers, independent contractors, freelancers—i.e. almost doubled in 20 years.

- 6 millions unfilled job openings: while we still need a lot of workers, the work now requires much higher education leaving many behind.

- the staggering decline in labor force participation by men of prime working age, 25 to 54.

- # of Americans on food stamps

A large part of what you're complaining isn't globalization or deadly artificial intelligence, it's people either not graduating from college or going to college for the wrong degrees and not getting the right education.

People are indoctrinated to go to college, and get a degree in gender studies, or something equally useless as a degree to attain employment, and end up unemployed with no employable skills. A lot of the 6 million job openings you're talking about are long in the tooth trades like "electricians", or plumbers, or HVAC specialist, not specialized killer AI programmers. Older tradesmen are retiring, or leaving the field, and there are literally no plumbers to take their place because kids are taught to look down upon trades, and put liberal degrees on a pedestal.

Seriously, if you can pull up your sleeves, don't mind getting sweaty or dirty, and get a 12 month apprenticeship, you can make $40-$60 an hour as a plumber.

But instead, millennials want to act like weak ass bitches, complaining that there are no jobs (there are plenty of jobs), and expect everything to be handed to them on a silver platter.

266   joeyjojojunior   781/786 = 99% civil   Jun 22, 2:30pm  ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote    

Nope--that's just BS. If all the folks with crappy college degrees suddenly learned trades, then we'd have a huge oversupply of plumbers, electricians, and HVAC specialists.

267   Goran_K   415/415 = 100% civil   Jun 22, 2:36pm  ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote    

joeyjojojunior says

Nope--that's just BS. If all the folks with crappy college degrees suddenly learned trades, then we'd have a huge oversupply of plumbers, electricians, and HVAC specialists.

We don't know how many would even try. But right now there is a shortage, and people aren't even applying for the jobs.

268   Goran_K   415/415 = 100% civil   Jun 22, 2:38pm  ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote    

iwog says

3rd largest automotive company in the world?

GM has less than half the employees it did in 1950, and has less than 1/4 of the market share it enjoyed in 1950. GM is clearly in a much weaker competitive situation than it was 70 years ago.

269   joeyjojojunior   781/786 = 99% civil   Jun 22, 3:44pm  ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote    

Goran_K says

We don't know how many would even try. But right now there is a shortage, and people aren't even applying for the jobs.

It doesn't matter how many would try. My point is correct.

270   Goran_K   415/415 = 100% civil   Jun 22, 3:52pm  ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote    

joeyjojojunior says

It doesn't matter how many would try. My point is correct.

Yes if every college student who majored in liberal studies became a plumber then we'd have too many plumbers.

Yes, you are correct tatupu. You should feel good for being correct, or an award of some sort. Good job.

271   joeyjojojunior   781/786 = 99% civil   Jun 22, 3:59pm  ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote    

Why thank you. Now that we've established that, do you see that the problem isn't that the workforce is untrained (or uneducated), but rather that there just aren't enough jobs?

272   errc   570/578 = 98% civil   Jun 22, 4:00pm  ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote    

Where do you live where hvac and plumbers are in short supply?

Or does that actually play out statistically?

273   Quigley   704/709 = 99% civil   Jun 22, 4:03pm  ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote    

Goran_K says

Seriously, if you can pull up your sleeves, don't mind getting sweaty or dirty, and get a 12 month apprenticeship, you can make $40-$60 an hour as a plumber.

I don't mind either, but honestly, plumber knowledge is easily available on the web. I just had to do a bit of plumbing earlier this week when one of my toilets started leaking sewage water at the base. Turns out the wax seal was mostly gone, do I removed the toilet, scraped the seat hole clean, installed a new ring, and reseated the toilet. Not a fun job, but only cost me $8.95 for the rubber ring (upgrade from wax) instead of the $200-$300 a plumber would charge.
But I suppose not that many people would DIY on a job like that: hence plumbers stay busy.

274   Goran_K   415/415 = 100% civil   Jun 22, 4:05pm  ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote    

joeyjojojunior says

Why thank you. Now that we've established that, do you see that the problem isn't that the workforce is untrained (or uneducated), but rather that there just aren't enough jobs?

No, statistics do not agree with that statement. The employment rate for people with at least a 2 year degree, trade certificate, and 4 year degree are still extremely low, lower than the actual U3 unemployment rate. So it's not a jobs problem, it's a skills problem.

275   tr6   91/91 = 100% civil   Jun 22, 4:05pm  ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote    

Goran_K says

Older tradesmen are retiring, or leaving the field, and there are literally no plumbers to take their place because kids are taught to look down upon trades

That's the same narrative that I hear from many Trump supporters; it's not true. I have a friend who is plumber who does well right now; he was unemployed for about two years during financial crisis even though he is in the union.

276   Goran_K   415/415 = 100% civil   Jun 22, 4:08pm  ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote    

errc says

Where do you live where hvac and plumbers are in short supply?

Or does that actually play out statistically?

This is based on a professional survey given by the ACG of America, the largest organization of General Contractors in the U.S.

According to the survey, 86% of respondents said the #1 problem facing their firm was "Trouble filling salaried and/or hourly positions".

277   Goran_K   415/415 = 100% civil   Jun 22, 4:09pm  ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote    

tr6 says

That's the same narrative that I hear from many Trump supporters; it's not true. I have a friend who is plumber who does well right now; he was unemployed for about two years during financial crisis even though he is in the union.

Yes, so were a lot more people. The financial crisis began nearly a decade ago and peaked 6 years ago. Those were different times.

278   ThreeBays   13/13 = 100% civil   Jun 22, 4:14pm  ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote    

The trades like plumbing will likely be among the last jobs to be replaced by robots due to the complexity of the work space.

279   Rew   758/758 = 100% civil   Jun 22, 4:20pm  ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote    

On the mend, but not recovered. What happens when the next recession hits? Similar trend of not making full recovery in employment? Seems likely to me.

280   joeyjojojunior   781/786 = 99% civil   Jun 22, 4:25pm  ↑ like   ↓ dislike (1)   quote    

Goran_K says

According to the survey, 86% of respondents said the #1 problem facing their firm was "Trouble filling salaried and/or hourly positions".

Actually what they say is

"Trouble filling salaried and/or hourly positions at the pay they are offering"

281   Strategist   1698/1703 = 99% civil   Jun 22, 4:33pm  ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike   quote    

Goran_K says

It would never happen. Big companies rise and fall. New companies take over. Constant competition.

For instance in 1950, the biggest company by market cap was General Motors. Where is GM today?

GM had 60% market share in the 50's and 60's. Then the Japanese came, and the rest is history.
Damn unions.

282   Heraclitusstudent   260/260 = 100% civil   Jun 22, 4:34pm  ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote    

Goran_K says

So it's not a jobs problem, it's a skills problem.

Most people are too dumb to be data scientists. It's not something that's actionable unless you're considering genetic engineering.
This means for average human beings it's not a skill problem, it's a job problem.

That's exactly my point. A majority of human beings will soon be useless. Factor that in when you say "redistribution is theft."

283   joeyjojojunior   781/786 = 99% civil   Jun 22, 4:47pm  ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote    

Strategist says

GM had 60% market share in the 50's and 60's. Then the Japanese came, and the rest is history.

Damn unions.

Japanese workers are unionized too. So are German.

Perhaps it was just poor management decisions that killed the US automakers? Like being late to the show on quality and fuel efficiency?

284   Strategist   1698/1703 = 99% civil   Jun 22, 4:54pm  ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote    

joeyjojojunior says

Strategist says

GM had 60% market share in the 50's and 60's. Then the Japanese came, and the rest is history.


Damn unions.

Japanese workers are unionized too. So are German.

Perhaps it was just poor management decisions that killed the US automakers? Like being late to the show on quality and fuel efficiency?

Nope. The greedy American unions and the lazy, disloyal American workers are the problem.
The Japanese workers are ferociously loyal to their companies. They care for their company, thus turning out quality products. There was a guy who worked for Chrysler, who said he would leave out a screw, every time he got mad at his supervisor. The unions in America create an "us vs them" mentality against the management.

285   bob2356   557/561 = 99% civil   Jun 22, 5:02pm  ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote    

Strategist says

Nope. The greedy American unions and the lazy, disloyal American workers are the problem.

Of course they are. Making shit cars had nothing to do with the decline of US auto makers.

286   joeyjojojunior   781/786 = 99% civil   Jun 22, 5:05pm  ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote    

Strategist says

The Japanese workers are ferociously loyal to their companies. They care for their company, thus turning out quality products. There was a guy who worked for Chrysler, who said he would leave out a screw, every time he got mad at his supervisor. The unions in America create an "us vs them" mentality against the management

And why are they like that?? You don't think management has any culpability?

The difference in management styles between the Japanese car companies and the US car companies was about as stark as they come. It's funny how the same US workers care when they work for Honda or Toyota in the US....

287   Strategist   1698/1703 = 99% civil   Jun 22, 5:23pm  ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike   quote    

joeyjojojunior says

Strategist says

The Japanese workers are ferociously loyal to their companies. They care for their company, thus turning out quality products. There was a guy who worked for Chrysler, who said he would leave out a screw, every time he got mad at his supervisor. The unions in America create an "us vs them" mentality against the management

And why are they like that?? You don't think management has any culpability?

The difference in management styles between the Japanese car companies and the US car companies was about as stark as they come. It's funny how the same US workers care when they work for Honda or Toyota in the US....

I would agree. Management style can make a hell of a difference. We have a lot to learn.

288   Goran_K   415/415 = 100% civil   Jun 22, 5:54pm  ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote    

Strategist says

joeyjojojunior says

Strategist says

The Japanese workers are ferociously loyal to their companies. They care for their company, thus turning out quality products. There was a guy who worked for Chrysler, who said he would leave out a screw, every time he got mad at his supervisor. The unions in America create an "us vs them" mentality against the management

And why are they like that?? You don't think management has any culpability?

The difference in management styles between the Japanese car companies and the US car companies was about as stark as they come. It's funny how the same US workers care when they work for Honda or Toyota in the US....

I would agree. Management style can make a hell of a difference. We have a lot to learn.

I would agree too. Unions are used to bilk money and benefits in the US. In Japan there is actually pride of work, something that I believe has been lost to US union workers.

289   Goran_K   415/415 = 100% civil   Jun 22, 5:55pm  ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote    

Heraclitusstudent says

Goran_K says

So it's not a jobs problem, it's a skills problem.

Most people are too dumb to be data scientists. It's not something that's actionable unless you're considering genetic engineering.

This means for average human beings it's not a skill problem, it's a job problem.

That's exactly my point. A majority of human beings will soon be useless. Factor that in when you say "redistribution is theft."

In general are people dumb or lazy? I would contend that it's a lot more of the latter.

290   Goran_K   415/415 = 100% civil   Jun 22, 5:56pm  ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote    

joeyjojojunior says

Goran_K says

According to the survey, 86% of respondents said the #1 problem facing their firm was "Trouble filling salaried and/or hourly positions".

Actually what they say is

"Trouble filling salaried and/or hourly positions at the pay they are offering"

No it doesn't say "that" at all. At 86%, they are talking about market rate.

291   joeyjojojunior   781/786 = 99% civil   Jun 22, 7:18pm  ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike   quote    

Market rate is the rate at which jobs get filled. So, if the jobs aren't getting filled, it's not market rate

292   FortWayne   682/687 = 99% civil   Jun 22, 8:15pm  ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote    

Kids these days are just entitled and lazy when brought up by parents who don't teach value of hard work. I know parents like that, their kids are going to be hit with a dose of reality one day when they have to be on their own. Haven't worked a day in their life or paid taxes, but they sure are Democrats all right.

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