patrick.net

Ironman says

Sure you do, that's why you posted a detailed list above of the causes.... Oh wait, you didn't.

Did you read Bob's list? If you're looking for the reasons, it's a good place for you to start. If you want, I can post some other links for you too.

Ironman says

I'm not looking, I worked in the healthcare field my whole career, so I know the reasons.

Thanks for admitting that you are a troll. A normal person would have presented an argument based on their own experience why Bernie's plan won't work. But, we all know that you are not normal.
Ironman says

Please do, but I'll see pigs fly before you actually post them

http://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2014/06/us-healthcare-most-expensive-and-worst-performing/372828/

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/making-sense/why-does-health-care-cost-so-m/

http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/magazine/2014/11/it-is-time-to-get-mad-about-the-outrageous-cost-of-health-care/index.htm

Do you want more?

I worked in the healthcare field my whole career, so I know the reasons.

--------------

Eating shit does not constitute working a career in healthcare. Especially not when you volunteer to do it for free, you simple-simon motherless fuck

Ironman says

That's the best comeback you can think of, to prove that you're not a clueless idiot and know NOTHING about how the health insurance industry works??

Well, first off--I wasn't trying to prove anything to you. I couldn't give a crap what you think. I just find it amusing that someone who has worked in the healthcare field their whole life has yet to offer anything based on their experience.

Ironman says

Yep, answer this ONE question, if government single payer is the answer and they know how and can control costs, how did this happen?

Poor estimating?

Again--how do you gloss over the fact that EVERY other country with single payer has DRASTICALLY lower costs? There is no guesswork here. Just copy the best of the systems that already WORK.

Ironman says

So, why hasn't our government already copied these systems with Medicare and Medicaid?

Because there are too many folks like you who vote for Republicans that take $$ from companies that LOVE the status quo and raping the US population.

Ironman says

What the fuck do you think I've been doing

Great--can you point me to the posts where you explain why single payer health care will NOT work here? Not a chart showing that projections were wrong. Reasons why single payer won't be much cheaper than the current system.

What makes liberals think that they will get anything for the extra tax money than trinkets, or that the government having more money is some kind of guarantee of performance?

It's just the opposite. The more money you give them, the more pork barrel, and the less incentive to actually deliver anything when they think they can just keep diving deeper into the pot.

Ceffer says

The more money you give them, the more pork barrel, and the less incentive to actually deliver anything when they think they can just keep diving deeper into the pot.

Yes, that does seem to be the meme we get from right wingers.

Meanwhile, some are capable of seeing all that government actually does. IT's amazing, if you were to actually take that information in. But of course, you won't.

When was it exactly, that government started supposedly getting so so terrible at using tax revenue funding productively or half way efficiently ?

Was it coincidentally when republicans started controlling congress ?

Because I recall a time when people didn't question things like, public run prisons, or the post office, or most public schools. Also, government always contracted a lot of construction type work, and infrastructure and so on, to private firms. So, it's very disingenuous to say that the government can't do anything. Look around you ! Pretty much, everywhere you look, you see evidence of effective government investment. It's EVERYWHERE !

Ironman says

tatupu70 says

Do you want more?

Yep, answer this ONE question, if government single payer is the answer and they know how and can control costs, how did this happen?

-

If you actually worked in health care your whole life, which I seriously doubt, then you know this chart is bullshit,. The numbers are nominal not inflation adjusted and the later additions to the programs included are in the actual cost but not the "estimated cost at time of enactment". The estimated cost of any expansion to the programs needs to be added back into the "estimated cost at time of enactment" to make the chart valid. Otherwise it's a one sided accounting entry. But with your total lack of math skills you don't know what this means anyway. Post the source next time along with the methodology, not just a pretty picture from rightwingnut.com. Never going to happen.

Not that you have any interest in actual real numbers or have the capacity to understand them, but medicare part a isn't 7.44 to 1 it's 1.6 to 1. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fact-checker/wp/2013/10/21/jim-demints-claims-about-medicare-cost-estimates-from-1965/ The rest of the chart isn't any better.

So since you are so sure what won't work feel free to share what will. Oh yes I know, free market, more profits. It's worked so well already.

you are forgetting the payroll tax of ~8% on top of the 2.2% proposed on the backbone.

"The economic burden of the payroll tax falls almost entirely on the worker, regardless of whether the tax is remitted by the employer or the employee, as the employers’ share of payroll taxes is passed on to employees in the form of lower wages than would otherwise be paid." --wikipedia

the average parson under bernie the fuckhead sanders will be taking home about 10% LESS income per paycheck.

anyone on here who supports bernie is a threat to the average american and should be treated as such.

Ironman says

Would you prefer the numbers come from the Wall Street Journal instead?

Sorry no subscription. Looks like the WSJ aka the republican daily rag is recycling the same bogus numbers to me. The WSJ has certainly never ever printed an article that was a political hack job, Never, really, not ever.

Address the issue, don't post the same crap numbers back from a different source. Your chart is bullshit.Oh right, you can't address the issue because it involves third grade math which is far beyond you. .

bob2356 says

So since you are so sure what won't work feel free to share what will. Oh yes I know, free market, more profits. It's worked so well already.

Still waiting and will be forever.

Ah yes the farm animal reference. The signal that your sub microscopic intellect has once again been all used up.

Dan8267 says

Wanting the uber-rich who got rich by exploiting others rather than producing wealth to pay their share of taxes is envy?

You were always a communist at heart anyway right... so it's ok to justify envy like that.

FortWayne says

Dan8267 says

Wanting the uber-rich who got rich by exploiting others rather than producing wealth to pay their share of taxes is envy?

You were always a communist at heart anyway right... so it's ok to justify envy like that.

How the fuck does having no respect for Goldman Sachs, a company that made billions destroying the economy, make me a communist? Oh wait, I forgot, you don't know the actual definitions of any of the political and economic words you use. You probably think a communist is a kind of tulip.

I have no envy, but I do have disgust for the rich who became so from stealing from others, legally or not. For those who actually produced their own wealth like inventors, entertainers, engineers, and doctors, I have complete respect. And the difference between those two sets of people is something a simple-minded buffoon like you will never comprehend.

Speaking of envy, though, is that why you hate happily married gays so much? Is it because gay married couples have better relationships with their children then you have with yours? Yeah, it's all starting to make sense.

Ironman says

Translation: I can't dispute what was posted because it was verified by two sources, so I'll just resort to name calling.

The MAIN point being, since you decided to gloss over the entire thread, is that government programs virtually NEVER come in close to projections,

LOL. Verified by two sources? A picture from who knows where and a subscription only article from the WSJ that no one can read? What a joke. That's supposed to be some type of unimpeachable gold standard for proof? Contest the numbers in the article I posted, I'll wait even though it will be forever. . Being off by a factor of 700% or more like some of your "chart" isn't considered by normal people to be a valid talking point even within the alternative universe of the right wingnut echo chamber.

I didn't gloss over anything. I'm saying your numbers are crap, not that government programs don't grow. Your "chart" compares apples to oranges, it's too bad you don't have the math skills to understand that. Government programs do grow for many reasons. By inflation, by congress expanding them, by population expansion, etc., etc.. Who in 1965 when medicare was passed would have projected a decade of double digit inflation?

bob2356 says

bob2356 says

So since you are so sure what won't work feel free to share what will. Oh yes I know, free market, more profits. It's worked so well already.

Still waiting and will be forever.

Still waiting and will be forever.

Ironman says

bob2356 says

Ah yes the farm animal reference.

What other reason would you have for being such a fucking cranky old bastard?

You and dan are the ones that post about farm animal sex (and excrement, and gay sex) all day every day. I respond on occasion after you totally run out of argument and resort to posting about farm animal sex because you have nothing else to offer. Anyone obsessing about the subject as much as you do must be speaking from extensive personal experience.

tatupu70 says

Great--can you point me to the posts where you explain why single payer health care will NOT work here? Not a chart showing that projections were wrong. Reasons why single payer won't be much cheaper than the current system.

Still waiting.

Ironman says

It's been posted THREE times above. Having reading comprehension issues today?

Let me refresh your memory.

tatupu70 says

Great--can you point me to the posts where you explain why single payer health care will NOT work here? Not a chart showing that projections were wrong. Reasons why single payer won't be much cheaper than the current system.

If you've posted it above, just give me the comment#.

Ironman says

You still want to split hairs on percentages or get to the center of the problem that government SUCKS at ANY program they try to administrate. If they can't get it right when dealing with 1/6 to 1/7 of the population (seniors), how do you and Tatty boy think they can get it right when they administer "Medicare for All" for 320 MILLION people?

First--who says they aren't getting it right? As demographics change and the population ages, of course a program dealing with seniors will grow.

Have a look at administrative costs of government run vs. private insurance:

http://healthcarereform.procon.org/view.resource.php?resourceID=004083

Ironman says

Ironman says

The 1988 Medicare home-care benefit was supposed to cost $4 billion by 1993, but the actual cost was $10 billion, because many more people participated than expected.

The government doesn't do a census and doesn't know how many people are in a certain age group? How does the government "miss" this projection by 150% in only FIVE years?

Go look up Duggan v. Bowen 1988. A federal judge ordered Medicare to take off it's administrative controls on the program. That's how you miss a projection by 150%. The WSJ didn't mention this case? Shocking, simply shocking I tell you.

Ironman says

You still want to split hairs on percentages or get to the center of the problem that government SUCKS at ANY program they try to administrate. If they can't get it right when dealing with 1/6 to 1/7 of the population (seniors), how do you and Tatty boy think they can get it right when they administer "Medicare for All" for 320 MILLION people?

No the government doesn't suck at any program they try to administrate. So if private insurance is so great at adminstering why is the cost of health care in the US double all the government programs around the world?

I don't think they will get it right with Medicare for all. I've posted that on your threads at least a dozen times. Medicare is a poor program to base single payer on. If you worked in health care all your life then you should be aware of a field called geriatrics. They can help you with managing your dementia. Check it out, I'm concerned for you.

Why are you sweating this? The oligarchs that rule the health care industry, the people you worship, will never let anything cut into their astronomical profits. Any programs that come out will simply be thinly disguised public risk private profit corporate welfare like obamacare and medicare D.

bob2356 says

bob2356 says

bob2356 says

So since you are so sure what won't work feel free to share what will. Oh yes I know, free market, more profits. It's worked so well already.

Still waiting and will be forever.

Still waiting and will be forever.

Still waiting and will be forever.

Ironman says

Why is that? I want you to give me your answer, and then I'll give you mine.

I'm tired of playing your games. I'm still waiting for you to tell me why every other country in the world spends half what we do on health care but copying the best of their systems won't work here.

Ironman says

Translation: I don't know and don't have an answer.... again... so I'll just deflect it back on you to answer a question that was ALREADY answered above.

lol--why don't you answer the questions that Bob or I have asked you multiple, multiple times? Then I'll consider educating you again.

tatupu70 says

lol--why don't you answer the questions that Bob or I have asked you multiple, multiple times? Then I'll consider educating you again.

Still waiting