patrick.net

richwicks says

You're only considered Jewish if your paternal grandmother was Jewish.

It's maternal grandmother. Maternal.

You are factually, verifiably incorrect here. Twice in a single sentence. Israel does accept converts in addition to recognizing descendants from maternal bloodline. This was tested in 1980 in a case which made it to Israeli Supreme Court.

As to how willing they are, you should know that Israeli Arabs, proper Israeli citizens, celebrated rockets that landed in their own streets. They cheered and gave away candy, as it is customary to do during holidays. I'll repeat: In. Their. Own. Streets. Gave away candy, like they traditionally do during holidays. If you didn't hear about this then you should expand on your sources. If you did but didn't mention it here and didn't incorporate in your worldview then there's another problem (I won't go into it for now).

mostly reader says

It's maternal grandmother. Maternal.

You're correct and I did make that mistake. I corrected it. That was a typo by the way, but it's embarrassing.

mostly reader says

You are factually, verifiably incorrect here. Twice in a single sentence. Israel does accept converts in addition to recognizing descendants from maternal bloodline. This was tested in 1980 in a case which made it to Israeli Supreme Court.

Oh? Who were the people. Name them by name.

I hear claims like this ALL THE TIME. Prove what you said is correct. What was the case, and who were the plaintiffs?

richwicks says

I hear claims like this ALL THE TIME. Prove what you said is correct. What was the case, and who were the plaintiffs?

Miller vs. Minister of Interior. Source: http://www.etd.ceu.hu/2012/pransky_tiffany.pdf I was slightly off with my dates, it was 1986 (not 1980)

It wasn't even what I thought it was, a case of conversion to Orthodox Judaism. The entire case had to be filed because she was a Reform convert, not an Orthodox. I learned something new. Were she an Orthodox convert, the issue wouldn't even be there.

Other cases at that link give good idea about how the law treats all these situations - conversion, marriage, descendants, territories, what not.

Couple of cases here: https://cadmus.eui.eu/bitstream/handle/1814/56024/RSCAS_GLOBALCIT_CR_2018_02.pdf Not all of them with happy ending because the law is quite consistent. Someone who converted to Judaism is a Jew even if they weren't by birth, but someone who converted away from Judaism is no longer a Jew even if they were by birth.

Of the more recent new, this one tuckles a niche situation: converts within Israel, in which petitioners - Reform and Masorti movements - were the ones performing the conversion. Many links because it happened in the era of internet, here is one: https://www.jpost.com/breaking-news/israel-to-recognize-reform-conservative-conversion-for-law-of-return-660592 , there are many more. The court said that those converts are Jews.

Here's my question to you. While court cases with names and dates aren't readily available, their summaries are. 2-min search gives you tons of links on converts and how Israeli law treats them. Those summaries are mostly fully consistent with the more precise sources which I've offered above. You pressed me for hard data (names and cases), which costed me some time that I could've spent better. Why?

I can imagine two explanations for that.
1. You have a reason to doubt the summaries. Such as you personally know someone who converted and wanted to move to Israel, but Israel said "no". Or something else of similar nature.
2. Your strategy is to make a BS claim and to wear down the opponent by demanding that every little detail in rebuttal is verified or else it doesn't count.

This is a question of credibility. Your credibility.

What do you say?

Hamas: "Gee, let's do something really smart and lob a bunch of missiles at Israel." "Gollee, that's SO SMART, i wish I'd thought of it."

Paving the road for the Neocon war with Iran? Is Hamas on the neocon payroll?

Ceffer says

Hamas: "Gee, let's do something really smart and lob a bunch of missiles at Israel." "Gollee, that's SO SMART, i wish I'd thought of it."

I think it's necessary for Hamas fundraising. If they never attack Israel, they lose legitimacy with their supporters.

It's similar to how I felt about ISIS sawing people's head off on video and distributing that. I thought "Boy, that is really stupid if you want public support." But then someone pointed out to me that I am not their audience. Violently insane Muslims are their audience, and they watch that stuff like porn, and donate more when they get more of it.

Frenemy terrorism? "Hey, without you, our sanctimonious posturing would be useless. The WorldFucks keep pumping billions into us as long as we keep going at it."

Patrick says

I always like to say that the Palestinians should simply convert to Judaism.

Voila, they can then become citizens of Israel, lol.

One problem with my tongue-in-cheek solution there: other Muslim Palestinians would instantly murder any Muslim who converts to Judaism. Islam demands the murder of all those who renounce Islam.

I believe Islam is the only religion which still murders those who try to leave the religion. Christianity was like that in the middle ages, but eventually came around to the fact that Jesus never did or advocated such a thing, unlike Mohammed, who murdered lots of people. Example: https://www.answering-islam.org/Muhammad/Enemies/asma.html

It appears that ALL religions murder lots of people when given the opportunity. Gotta kill anybody who doesn't support your tribal mishmash of hierarchal God Vision.

Israeli government the protector of the homeland? They have been a thousand percent on board with Globalist Covid tyranny and vaccine terror agains their own people. It seems that a few Israelis have been going to the world courts for recourse.

Patrick says

One problem with my tongue-in-cheek solution there: other Muslim Palestinians would instantly murder any Muslim who converts to Judaism. Islam demands the murder of all those who renounce Islam.

Actually, it looks like Israel wouldn't accept them anyway:

https://www.jpost.com/Arab-Israeli-Conflict/Palestinian-requests-to-convert-to-Judaism-rejected-automatically-449987

Israel’s authority handling conversions to Judaism rejects Palestinian applicants without review because of their ethnic origin, its head said. ..

“The threshold requirements” to be considered by the special cases panel, he said, “are that applicants be sincere and that they are not foreign workers; infiltrators; Palestinian or illegally in the country.” In 2014, he added, the special cases committee received 400 applications. “Half of the applicants were accepted, the rest were rejected as foreign workers, infiltrators, illegal stayers and Palestinians,” he said.

That does seem to be a violation of human rights on the basis of ethnicity.

Ceffer says

It appears that ALL religions murder lots of people when given the opportunity. Gotta kill anybody who doesn't support your tribal mishmash of hierarchal God Vision.

Israeli government the protector of the homeland? They have been a thousand percent on board with Globalist Covid tyranny and vaccine terror agains their own people. It seems that a few Israelis have been going to the world courts for recourse.

This is propaganda against religious people
Kings, dictators and communists have killed more people than religious people throughout history.

Ceffer says

It appears that ALL religions murder lots of people when given the opportunity.

Yeah.

But that conflict is not a religious conflict. Talk with the folks on the ground, they will tell you that. If that's not practical, talk to IDF Vets who are all over Silicon Valley. They will tell you that too.

The Irish conflict was never a religious conflict either.

It was natives vs invaders, nothing more. They happened to have somewhat different religions, but not all that different.

Patrick says

Actually, it looks like Israel wouldn't accept them anyway

To be clear, they won't be allowed to convert, which is a prerequisite to getting accepted. Conversion to Judaism is no joke. The process is hard, and the authority which performs the conversion needs to be convinced that it's done for "right reasons" (i.e. spiritual).
It's sorta the opposite of a super easy path to Islam, or to moderately easy way to get baptized (unless it's George Constanza trying to become a Lithuanian Orthodox). In popular media, this was reflected in that cute episode of "Sex and the City" in which Charlotte converted.

mostly reader says

What do you say?

I have to do more research from my experience of dealing with Hasbera before.

Israel really doesn't have a "supreme court" - their decision isn't permanent and previous decisions aren't accepted as precedent and the next group of 15 can over-ride whatever was created before. It's squirrely because there's no Israeli constitution.

Hasbera's purpose is to spread propaganda. They are professional disinformationists. Not highly paid, but they have an extensive script and it's well referenced to support whatever argument is made to counter a genuine argument.

Give me some time, if I'm incorrect, I'll readily accept it, but this requires research - boring fucking research against an army of people who typically try to deceive. "Through deception we make war" - isn't that correct?

I know conversion is made extremely difficult and arduous. I doubt most people would put up with it. Israel doesn't want converts, and Jews don't want people to convert. It's mostly a genetically inherited trait through maternal line.

Patrick says

The Irish conflict was never a religious conflict either.

It was natives vs invaders, nothing more. They happened to have somewhat different religions, but not all that different.

Somebody should write a fiction book where a time traveler from 2021 goes back to Belfast of 1973 and shows the IRA and UDF pictures of Drag Queens with Transsexual Bathroom Signage, Sinn Fein celebrating the legalization of Abortion, etc. and both join up in a plan to kill every socialist in the Isles.

https://babylonbee.com/news/luke-skywalker-condemned-for-blowing-up-associated-press-office-located-on-death-star?fbclid=IwAR31SBQts--7lQqzaOjFw94jThgVxPXC2izjcjubzT2y3xtDzKIstYdoORs

richwicks says

Hasbera's purpose is to spread propaganda.

Nice.
You do realize though that it's not Hasbera's fact-bending that I'm pointing out here? So, shall we lay off statements as to who pursues what purpose.
To save you some trouble in that quest for truth: I personally know at least one convert who moved to Israel as a Jew.

mostly reader says

You are factually, verifiably incorrect here. Twice in a single sentence. Israel does accept converts in addition to recognizing descendants from maternal bloodline. This was tested in 1980 in a case which made it to Israeli Supreme Court.

I know a Portuguese Gal in her late 20s who is converting TO Judaism. Her family has disowned her for it, and they're not militant Catholics at all, but your typical Euro Secular Socialists. "You're going to be married to a circumcised man, and they rape women because they have no feeling in their penis" her mother told her. The mother is a long time heroin addict, FWIW.

Apparently, she reached out to some Hassidics, they paid for a plane ticket from Lisbon, put her up in a hostel in Israel, and have been paying for her Visa Renewals while she studies for Conversion.

Patrick says

Jews are pretty rich, so it's pretty hard.

There may be something to this. If I were to argue against this point, I'd point out that:
1) Conversion brings no benefits, apart from being able to move to Israel. Unless you are Doug "The Head" and need to blend in (spoiler: you'd be looked down at on both sides of the isle).
2) It was always hard to convert to Judaism, even before the modern Israel. The culture was always the opposite of "messianism", including the times when no one in the right mind would do it because it would bring nothing but trouble.
3) However, there is strong emphasis on reuniting with those who are already Jews but are detached from the culture/tradition.

If you look at 2 and 3 together, it hints at philosophy which is deeper than just "we want to expand" or "we want to be isolated". There's more to it.

However, I wouldn't argue against your point because there is no "because" in your point, and cause and effect may be not what they seem. Relative prosperity may be the consequence of such philosophy, not the reason.

Indeed, some of that may also apply to Parsis.

mostly reader says

Relative prosperity may be the consequence of such philosophy, not the reason.

There is a good argument to be made there as well. Groups that know they can trust each other have a big advantage in business. Outsiders don't fit into that.