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Race is Real


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2015 Dec 27, 9:56am   40,979 views  158 comments

by Patrick   ➕follow (55)   💰tip   ignore  

http://time.com/91081/what-science-says-about-race-and-genetics/

A longstanding orthodoxy among social scientists holds that human races are a social construct and have no biological basis. A related assumption is that human evolution halted in the distant past, so long ago that evolutionary explanations need never be considered by historians or economists.


It's nice that there is actually some pushback stating the obvious. not only is race very real and right in front of your eyes every day, the science has advanced to the point where you can spend $100 at https://www.23andme.com/ and be told your racial composition quite accurately.

The denial of race is one more aspect of PC-conformity which demands you ignore what you actually see and suppress your anti-PC thoughts. sure, once again the sentiment is laudable (acknowledging the existence of race might lead to deterministic thinking about race) but we should put the truth above sentiment.

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124   Dan8267   2015 Dec 31, 1:18pm  

P N Dr Lo R says

"Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth."

Please give me a detailed example of how I fit that. Otherwise, you are simply making a baseless ad hominem attack, and that is a sign of a weak position and a feeble mind. Chicken-shitting out after such a challenge is also a sign of moral weakness and intellectual incompetence.

125   Dan8267   2016 Jan 1, 6:21pm  

www.youtube.com/embed/eKmRkS1os7k

I've watched this video twice while waiting for a response.

126   Dan8267   2016 Aug 1, 8:02pm  

Dan8267 says

I've watched this video twice while waiting for a response.

Six months later...

Well, I guess P N Dr Lo R is conceding that he's full of shit.

127   Dan8267   2016 Aug 1, 8:06pm  

Dan8267 says

I have no problem with a scientific definition of race, but I sincerely doubt that any scientific, genetically meaningful definition of race would generate the same groupings that human history has, just like the definition of continental plate does not remotely relate to the continents we historically named.

I'm not the only one who thinks this.

www.youtube.com/embed/GLcg6jyg3zk

The historic notations of race are socio-historic constructs with little resemblance to biological criteria for grouping people based on genetics. Such biological groupings are perfectly valid, but produce groups that are vastly different from historical accounts both in content and in the number of groupings. Biological groupings could easily create hundreds of races and that's not very convenient to people who want only several races in order to easily distinguish people.

128   🎂 Tenpoundbass   2016 Aug 1, 8:20pm  

Everyone should be damned proud of who they are. I know I am proud of them.

129   marcus   2016 Aug 1, 8:29pm  

rando says

i was explicitly taught in college that there are no races

If that's true, it silly and it's silly to get hung up on it. It's a semantics argument. Both you and the flaky professor that said that can both be right because you don't mean the same thing by race.

Here's Bill Nye, a smart guy arguing that there's no such thing as race. http://bigthink.com/words-of-wisdom/bill-nye-theres-no-such-thing-as-race

It's semantics.

The important thing is do you think that race can make someone more likely to be a criminal or an idiot ? That is, independent of social factors that occur over a small number of generations. Most informed intelligent people say no.

130   Strategist   2016 Aug 1, 8:43pm  

marcus says

rando says

i was explicitly taught in college that there are no races

If that's true, it silly and it's silly to get hung up on it. It's a semantics argument. Both you and the flaky professor that said that can both be right because you don't mean the same thing by race.

Genetically, we are 99.999% the same. We are all descendants of Apes.

131   Y   2016 Aug 2, 6:07am  

which begs the question, is the chimpanzee a member of a different race than say, the gorilla, the lemar, the libbies???

Strategist says

Genetically, we are 99.999% the same. We are all descendants of Apes.

132   Blurtman   2016 Aug 2, 6:19am  

Where is Hispanic or Latino on the chart?

133   Bellingham Bill   2016 Aug 2, 6:30am  

So I guess what Patrick's saying is that Jews and Asians are much sharper on the whole than the average Caucasian, and we white folk are fucked going forward?

I guess I agree with that.

Hell the Nazis had to purge the Jews from their professional classes in the 30s, since they had begun to monopolize all the high-paying professions, given their IQ superiority.

I sure felt a lot dumber when I was living in Tokyo in the 90s, LOL.

Great being back in the states, where I'm a super-genius*

*until I interview at a Microsoft, Google, or Apple campus

134   Strategist   2016 Aug 2, 6:33am  

Where are the Saudis?

135   Patrick   2016 Aug 2, 11:05am  

Bellingham Bill says

So I guess what Patrick's saying is that Jews and Asians are much sharper on the whole than the average Caucasian, and we white folk are fucked going forward?

Jews and Asians are on average smarter than white people, and that does seem to be partly genetic, but everything is a bell curve and there's a lot of overlap, so it's not deterministic. Ie, you can't just say any given Jew or Asian will be smarter than any random white person, nor how history will turn out.

The Saudis are very inbred:

Across the Arab world today an average of 45 percent of married couples are related, according to Dr. Nadia Sakati, a pediatrician and senior consultant for the genetics research center at King Faisal Specialist Hospital in Riyadh.

In some parts of Saudi Arabia, particularly in the south, where Mrs. Hefthi was raised, the rate of marriage among blood relatives ranges from 55 to 70 percent, among the highest rates in the world, according to the Saudi government.

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/05/01/world/saudi-arabia-awakes-to-the-perils-of-inbreeding.html

Another interesting tidbit I ran across recently: yes, all humans of the same gender are 99.9% identical or something like that, but the mere fact of having a Y chromosome or an extra X makes men much more closely related to other men and women to women. So much so that a male chimpanzee is more closely related to a male human than a female human is related to a male human! And similar for females.

136   NuttBoxer   2016 Aug 2, 11:52am  

I'm going to disagree and say race is not real, because I don't believe in aliens. The only context I've ever heard the word "race" in where it makes sense is the human race. Now if you want to say ethnicity is real, well what moron would ever argue with that?

137   marcus   2016 Aug 2, 12:00pm  

rando says

So much so that a male chimpanzee is more closely related to a male human than a female human is related to a male human! And similar for females.

Wait, is this essentially saying that a human male having a penis and a female human having a vagina (in addition to all the internal differences in reproductive organs and functions) is a bigger difference than the difference in intelligence between human male and a chimpanzee male ?

That's pretty nonsensical if you ask me. I guess we could say that an apple and a orange are more similar to each other than a forklift is similar to a boat. But I don't know what metrics would be used to draw this conclusion. Seems silly to me rather than profound.

rando says

Bellingham Bill says

So I guess what Patrick's saying is that Jews and Asians are much sharper on the whole than the average Caucasian, and we white folk are fucked going forward?

THe question is: if any race that you think is less intelligent than another were to have a cultural shift with respect to mating patterns, say for example such that a significant majority of females placed the highest emphasis in mate selection criteria on intelligence and potential career success in modern society, how much would this change in just a few hundred years (nothing close to an evolutionary time scale). Would the difference still be there ?

I don't think we know the answer to that. But my opinion is there would be no difference. Besides we can't really measure intelligence, since there are so many different types: emotional intelligence, creative intelligence (of many kinds), imagination, common sense, analytical, logic and problems solving, sense of humor, and social intelligence and so on. Not to mention so many skills that would not usually be classified as types of intelligence.

138   Blurtman   2016 Aug 2, 1:27pm  

NuttBoxer says

Now if you want to say ethnicity is real,

Ethnicity only gets you farther into the weeds as it is even more poorly defined. Current PC practice can keep it pretty simple - there are white people and there are colored people. Asians who may be whiter than some white people are apparently colored people, if they choose to be. People with Spanish surnames can also claim to be colored people, if that proves to be advantageous.

139   Strategist   2016 Aug 2, 1:59pm  

rando says

The Saudis are very inbred:

Generations of inbreeding results in freaks.

140   Patrick   2016 Aug 3, 9:58pm  

marcus says

THe question is: if any race that you think is less intelligent than another were to have a cultural shift with respect to mating patterns, say for example such that a significant majority of females placed the highest emphasis in mate selection criteria on intelligence and potential career success in modern society, how much would this change in just a few hundred years (nothing close to an evolutionary time scale). Would the difference still be there ?

I don't think we know the answer to that. But my opinion is there would be no difference.

I think that experiment has actually been done. Ashkenazi (European) Jews did have a system of occupations and marriages where more intelligent men had more children for something like a thousand years, say 800 AD to 1800 AD (ok, "common era" for you hardcore Jews).

And Jews did end up significantly smarter on average because of it, and it is genetic. That higher intelligence comes with the cost of susceptibility to more genetic diseases.

And I bet similar dynamics explain the over-achievement of the Igbo people in Nigeria, though I don't know as many details about that.

141   Patrick   2022 May 24, 12:02pm  

Race is absolutely not a social construct. It is biological fact.

https://web.archive.org/web/20220519200857/https://www.boston.com/news/health/2022/05/18/scientists-create-ai-race-from-x-rays-dont-know-how-it-works-harvard-mit/


Additionally, the fact that humans are unable to detect what features of the images are tipping off the AI systems to the patient’s race, combined with the fact that the AI systems were still accurately detecting the patient’s race regardless of what part of the body the image was taken from, as well as when the images were greatly degraded, means that it would be extremely hard to create an AI system using medical imaging that does not have a racial bias, the study authors wrote.


One should treat all races equally - except in medicine, where one's race can make a large difference in how well various treatments work.
142   AmericanKulak   2022 May 24, 12:25pm  

someone else says



And Jews did end up significantly smarter on average because of it, and it is genetic. That higher intelligence comes with the cost of susceptibility to more genetic diseases.

And I bet similar dynamics explain the over-achievement of the Igbo people in Nigeria, though I don't know as many details about that.


For the Igbo, yes, because herding is a very abstract, planning and thinking exercise.

Ethnicities that practice ocean fishing and herding are generally the smartest: You have to do guess work as to weather, learn different methodologies for knots, ropes, sails, wind apparent angle, leeway, currents, etc. You have to say "I think the grass on the other side of the valley would be best. On the other hand, it hasn't rained much this season, but maybe it did in the rain shadow on the other side of the hill. Now let me count my sheep and train my dogs." or "Will the fish be biting again on this bank, or that bank? What was the weather like last week? Will I face a storm? How much netting width do I need if I have to encounter one fish versus another."

Primitive farming is basically seed spray and praying for the floods/monsoon/rains/sun to come in order.

Just FYI Ashkenazi are 2/3rd White, with the entire maternal line coming from a starter base of about half a dozen West Coast Italian/Sardinian/Corsican (the last two famous for sailors and intelligence) maternal ancestors.
143   Patrick   2022 May 24, 12:28pm  

That's interesting. My wife's father is Jewish, and her mother is Armenian. Yet 23andme shows her as a small part Sardinian.
144   Bd6r   2022 May 24, 1:49pm  

Patrick says
Corsican (the last two famous for sailors and intelligence)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gV52zs4-sNU
145   Patrick   2023 Jun 23, 12:22am  

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2019/jun/12/what-does-it-mean-to-be-genetically-jewish


In recent years, a number of high-profile commentators have appropriated these scientific insights to push the idea that genetics can determine who we are socially, none more controversially than the former New York Times science writer Nicholas Wade. In his 2014 book, A Troublesome Inheritance: Genes, Race and Human History, Wade argues that genetic differences in human populations manifest in predictable social differences between those groups.

His book was strongly denounced by almost all prominent researchers in the field as a shoddy incarnation of race science, but the idea that our DNA can determine who we are in some social sense has also crept into more mainstream perspectives.

In an op-ed published in the New York Times last year, the Harvard geneticist David Reich argued that although genetics does not substantiate any racist stereotypes, differences in genetic ancestry do correlate to many of today’s racial constructs. “I have deep sympathy for the concern that genetic discoveries could be misused to justify racism,” he wrote. “But as a geneticist I also know that it is simply no longer possible to ignore average genetic differences among ‘races’.”

Reich’s op-ed was shared widely and drew condemnation from other geneticists and social science researchers.


Lol, another truth that may not be spoken.
146   Patrick   2023 Oct 10, 3:50pm  

https://notthebee.com/article/this-man-just-crushed-the-world-record-marathon-time-in-chicago


Kelvin Kiptum of Kenya is the new record-holder for the fastest marathon time, at just 35 seconds past the two hour mark. This is an amazing feat, and he did it all without a coach.


Pretty much all marathon winners are Kenyan.

It's genetic.
148   gabbar   2023 Nov 17, 2:43am  

marcus says


i was explicitly taught in college that there are no races

I don't think colleges should be in the business of teaching this. But we know schools and colleges do do this.
149   gabbar   2023 Nov 17, 2:44am  

Patrick says

Pretty much all marathon winners are Kenyan.
It's genetic.

I second. The nature of the heart and muscle characteristics are suitable to marathons.
150   gabbar   2023 Nov 17, 2:46am  

Patrick says

Race is absolutely not a social construct.

Social construct is a bullshit phrase?
151   Patrick   2023 Nov 17, 9:55am  

The bullshit phrase is indeed bullshit. I should have put it in quotes. Race is real.
153   AmericanKulak   2024 Feb 3, 3:05pm  

Patrick says


Lol, another truth that may not be spoken.

I agree - the truth should be pursued regardless of "possible" effects.

That being said, one thing that some in HBD won't like is the proven concept of hybrid vitality, that mixing strains often results in hardier, better adapted offspring. Mutts are healthier and exhibit fewer negative traits than purebred dogs, for example.

Another myth is that the Blackness always burns through: I work with a 6' tall woman you'd never think was anything but Italian or Hispanic, she's hardly a shade darker than me. The only hint of her Blackness is her curly hair and nose, but again plenty of Roman Noses and Dark Curly hair among South Europeans. Her father is a giant of an almost pitch Black Man, a pastor. Another example would be that influencer Britney Venti (sp?) who is so light skinned you'd never guess she's half black. Once you know it, you see a few features but nothing you couldn't find in plenty of Whites.

The solution to Africa might be taking all the unmarried Chinese men and having them marry African women.
154   Patrick   2024 Feb 3, 3:47pm  

AmericanKulak says

hybrid vitality, that mixing strains often results in hardier, better adapted offspring. Mutts are healthier and exhibit fewer negative traits than purebred dogs, for example


Hybrid vigor is a thing, but outbreeding depression is also a thing.

Some subspecies are so well adapted to a specific environment so that mixing them dilutes those adaptations. Example: blue eyes are an adaptation to the low winter light in northern Europe in both people and wolves. A homogenized human will invariably have brown eyes and lose that advantage, not being able to see as well in low light.
155   Patrick   2024 Feb 8, 11:08am  




https://boriquagato.substack.com/p/in-person-nation-vs-impersonation


physiognomy, once a darling of victorian natural philosophers, is one of those disciplines that got discredited but probably shouldn’t have been, at least not conceptually.

it, along with genes, gene driven outcomes, and genetic population variance in traits and outcomes are among the most suppressed topics in academia, media, and social media.

even mention them on twitter and you get your reach throttled severely.

do so in a university and unless you have the most secure of tenure, they will drop a building on your head.

many like to denounce it as pseudoscience.

this seems odd to me as, at core, it’s not like this is an exotic or even debatable idea. such notions were once common canon, they were just taken too far and in some poor directions owing to lack of rigor but the simple fact is that it’s patently obvious that genes affect all manner of characteristics and behaviors in animals (including humans).

because these traits are heritable, changes in environment serve as selectors where some traits prove advantageous to certain populations at certain times and are therefore conserved and spread through mating fitness outcomes.

breed and your genes spread; don’t and they disappear. that’s just biology.

similarly obvious is the idea that the traits encapsulated in your genes often create visible markers in your physiology and that humans are highly attuned to this. the evidence for this is (contrary to popular pontification) actually quite strong. like everything, it has limits, but the there is real information there.

we carry all manner of signals in our bodies and body language and it follows inevitably from this that learning to read such signals (consciously or unconsciously) from other humans is a highly adaptive trait. you’re probably experienced it consciously when you see the mentally ill on the street. their posture and movement is wrong. you can see it from a block away. it’s not difficult to perceive the survival benefit once upon a time of catching that early or knowing who would likely be prone to violence before they got close enough to engage in any.

the ones who figured it out had offspring. the ones who didn’t, not so much.

similarly, high heeled shoes on women became a trend because it’s attractive to men, but the reason for it is not known to most. it’s because it changes hip and pelvic angle to a position associated with human estrus. ask any chimp or baboon. they know this. men may not realize they’re having a “breeding response” but they are. the men who didn’t respond to that stimulus were less likely to propagate and their genes are no longer with us.
156   AmericanKulak   2024 Feb 8, 1:28pm  

Patrick says


Some subspecies are so well adapted to a specific environment so that mixing them dilutes those adaptations. Example: blue eyes are an adaptation to the low winter light in northern Europe in both people and wolves. A homogenized human will invariably have brown eyes and lose that advantage, not being able to see as well in low light.

Those are nice for pre-artificial light/electric living, but much better that races with poor time-preferences and emotion management get that bred out or diluted by those that do?

That "Tropical Dystemper", LOL.
158   Patrick   2024 Feb 15, 9:55am  

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/meritocracy-would-mean-almost-no-black-harvard-professors-says-cambridge-academic-mqjwdwg92


Meritocracy would mean almost no black Harvard professors, says academic

Students have previously called for Nathan Cofnas to be sacked from Cambridge and said his fellowship was tantamount to funding ‘scientific racism’

A University of Cambridge academic has suggested that a meritocracy would reduce the number of black Harvard professors to almost zero.

Nathan Cofnas, an early career fellow at the faculty of philosophy, wants a “hereditarian revolution” and for a culture of “race realism” that acknowledges differences between ethnicities. ...

Cofnas, who was hired by the university in 2022, said that, without imposed diversity in recruiting, that black people “would disappear from almost all high-profile positions outside of sports and entertainment”.

He called for an end to the “war on nature” and for people to “accept that talent is not distributed equally within or across groups”.

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