patrick.net

corntrollio says

You are wrong on this. Letting in documented folks tends to raise wages, and deporting undocumented immigrants would be very expensive and hurt our economy and wages (and cause higher unemployment).

There are studies on this:

http://www.americanprogress.org/issues/2010/01/raising_the_floor.html

Sorry if that doesn't fit with your agenda.

Ok I read the article and the whole report. What a crock. It says that in 86 when all the illegals were made legal that within a year they made more money than when they were illegal. Duh, of course they did. The whole point of illegals is to pay them next to nothing. So once this set was legal the report doesn't bother to talk about how to prevent the next group of illegals moving in that will be taking the peanut wages. That's exactly what happened after 86, yet the report doesn't talk about it at all. For christ sakes, 1986 is practically prehistoric.

bob2356 says

The whole point of illegals is to pay them next to nothing

That's pretty much it. We've been addicted to cheap labor for over 500 years now.

If you wanted things done you'd have a large family to run the farm. If you had money you would get a slave. Once that was abolished you had child labor that lasted until the 1930's (for the most part). I'd agree with feminists that most household labor was performed by women. Automation of washing/drying clothes and dishes, ovens, microwaves, electricity, lighting, running water all dramatically cut down on labor needed for homes...

Leaving illegal aliens being the last source of cheap labor. When Ceasar Chavez organized farm workers in the 1970's it simply pushed agricultural companies to update their economy cause it to become much more efficient..which caused the backlash of illegals going further north and into plenty of other fields. Instead of just farming it is now taking care of horses, nannies, maids, yard work, tilework, construction, roofing etc.

If we legalized illegals then they would have to be paid minimum wage and all the protections kick in. If you read the book Reefer Madness it illustrates that some work is nearly impossible to be performed with such conditions. It looked at the strawberry industry in southern CA. Highly labor intensive and even just the slightest bit of too much rain ruins it all. In short it is not a guaranteed type of industry.

If they want to reward something how about a green card for those that get a ph.d ?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PettvYLrLLM

What would it be saying that we want people to mow lawns more than scientists that might make new drugs to fight diseases?

Some other policies also need to be addressed within this. The war on drugs needs to end. The drug war in mexico has been ignored and tens of thousands are dead due to it. Violence creates exoduses of people. It is one argument to prevent people from coming in for economic reasons. But if we let an outright war fester on our borders it will be a much harder emotional argument to put them back.

To comment on what propitup stated..the term should be illegal aliens. "Illegal immigrants" is a bad term because immigration is a legal process. That would be like using the term "legal murderers" or "legal rapists" or "illegal midwives"

Gubmint failed on the $8,000 tax credit for Americans who were willing to buy homes that would lose value equal to ten times that credit. Did we run out of trusting Americans ? No wonder so many other Nations don't like Americans.

This proposal is already a hot discussion topic in China.

Regarding h1b, as a hiring manager I would rathe hire a citizen or green card holder. Less paperwork and legal fees. But if many of the applicants for a given job are h1b holders, what other choice do I have?

LarryPatrickMaloney says

I want to hear what Patrick has to say, this is instigated by Shumer, cmmon patrick, you gonna defend Shumer?

Larry that's the thing I'm not sure liberals are willing to do yet, look at their own failures and publicly criticizing their own politicians.

Conservatives were forced years ago to look at the cold reality and failures of Bush and other Rino and Neocon Republicans. It's those criticisms that spurred the Tea Party.
One of the straws that broke my back was was when Bush and Grahamnesty cuddled up with Ted Kennedy in 2006 to ram amnesty of illegal aliens down our throats, thank god that millions of us rose up to save our country and stopped them. Most conservatives agree that Bush broke the Republican party. It's the Tea party that decided to take it back.

It is obvious to me that the Liberals are extremely frustrated with Obama and the Pelosi, Reid and Barney Frank led congress and their coddling of the too big to fail, but I haven't seen the Occupy Wall St. crowd willing to point the finger of blame directly at Obama and their politicians... yet.

It's comming, but they're not there yet.

this bill will be dead on arrival. This is so unamerican that it's outrageous.

FortWayne says

this bill will be dead on arrival. This is so unamerican that it's outrageous

That is what I am thinking. I belong to several organizations like Numbers USA and others that lead the fight against illigal immigration and efforts to reduce legal immigration, and none of them are saying much about this bill. I think it is because this bill is going no where.

www.numbersusa.com

Interesting that the article doesn't mention Northern California at all, just Southern. What happened to all the "It's special here" cheerleaders who are convinced our insane home prices will stay high due to foreigners with suitcases full of cash?

Another study on where mainland Chinese and Hong Kong buyers were looking showed they preferred Vancouver.

Uh,oh! America is going to get screwed by the black money from overseas.

bob2356 says

That's exactly what happened after 86, yet the report doesn't talk about it at all. For christ sakes, 1986 is practically prehistoric.

LOL! you missed what was the American Renaissance in the 80s.. It was far better than you can imagine compared to today.

thomas.wong1986 says

bob2356 says

That's exactly what happened after 86, yet the report doesn't talk about it at all. For christ sakes, 1986 is practically prehistoric.

LOL! you missed what was the American Renaissance in the 80s.. It was far better than you can imagine compared to today.

I must have missed it somehow. Remind me again, I have forgotten.

propitup1 says

Corntrollio for your information, immigrants that come here without proper visas are not "undocumented", they are illegal. And they are taking jobs away from the 20 million Americans that are unemployed!

Yes, and you don't know anything about economics and reality. Read the study and tell me if you have any specific criticisms. Otherwise, spew your talking points trash elsewhere.

cab says

corntrollio says

Now the real estate industry wants visas attached to real estate contracts, to buy houses that Americans won't.

I didn't say that, that was propitup.

cab says

You may be right that it's not very compelling to outsiders, and that people aren't dreaming of coming here like the government assumes. But there's a very important point that almost no one is touching on here, and that's the fact that this is just once again the US government sticking it to its own citizens and letting us know that we're lower than last on their list of priorities.

Don't get me wrong -- I think it's an exceedingly crappy idea to pass the legislation the OP mentioned. I just think it won't have as much of an effect as people think. It's certainly stupid policy. Canada basically has the same policy already, I believe, and it has resulted in only a few thousand people a year coming to Canada on these sorts of visas (and their threshold is $400K instead of $500K, if I remember correctly).

bob2356 says

It says that in 86 when all the illegals were made legal that within a year they made more money than when they were illegal. Duh, of course they did. The whole point of illegals is to pay them next to nothing. So once this set was legal the report doesn't bother to talk about how to prevent the next group of illegals moving in that will be taking the peanut wages.

Let's not forget that it was Ronald Reagan who changed the laws in 1986. But what Bob is saying is why every politician who has proposed immigration reform has coupled it with making borders stronger. In addition, Obama has deported more folks every year than Bush, so enforcement has already improved.

Yet, state governments are still using this ideological BS to attempt their own immigration enforcement, which is hurting their economies. Just today, there was another report on NPR about how Alabama's new regulation has resulted in undocumented immigrants leaving the state, and farmers are now having trouble harvesting crops and sowing the next crops. Without migrant farm workers, Alabama's agricultural economy is being destroyed, and with it the suppliers of seed, fertilizer, and farm machinery.

Here's an article from a couple weeks ago:
http://www.npr.org/2011/10/08/141183030/can-the-u-s-economy-really-function-without-undocumented-workers

Here's the update from today's Morning Edition:
http://www.npr.org/2011/10/24/141638999/labor-worries-rise-as-planting-season-nears-in-ala

Peturis says he's tried to hire through the state unemployment office before, but didn't have much success.

"Two of them left in 30 minutes; didn't even tell us they [were] going to leave," Peturis says. "One worked an hour and says it was too hard on his back."

The Impending Planting Season

In Baldwin County on the Gulf Coast, strawberry planting season is just a few weeks away. Farmers are wondering if they'll have the crews to get the plants in the ground.

"We need help doing it and we need help that's going to come back every day," says Mark Krupinski, whose family farms about 900 acres in Foley, Alabama. He says the work is hard, and when local people ask him about a job, they want to drive tractors, not labor in the fields.

"That isn't the kind of job most of us want to do," he says. "I don't blame them for not wanting to do [it], but somebody's got to do it if we're going to keep eating for the price that we are eating at."

You heard it -- Americans just want to drive around in tractors, but undocumented migrant farm workers are the ones who are willing to do the real work.

corntrollio says

Yes, and you don't know anything about economics and reality. Read the study and tell me if you have any specific criticisms. Otherwise, spew your talking points trash elsewhere.

Controllio actually I do know something about economics and reality. Your "study" is an open borders piece of garbage, and the reality of living in California has taught me how to to spot this trash a mile away.

propitup1 says

Your "study" is an open borders piece of garbage, and the reality of living in California has taught me how to to spot this trash a mile away.

No evidence, no argument. Yeah, that's what I thought. You have nothing.

Corn you are only hearing what you want, not what I am saying. What I am telling you is that your "study" is a crock of you know what and not worth the paper it's written on.

If you want some real studies on the effect of immigration on Americans you can read these:

https://www.numbersusa.com/content/learn/illegal-immigration/illegal-immigration-1-billion-cost-los-angeles-taxpayers-1-year.html

https://www.numbersusa.com/content/learn/ethics-population-and-immigration/immigrants-and-welfare-use.html

https://www.numbersusa.com/content/learn/illegal-immigration/the-fiscal-cost-low-skilled-immigrants.html

https://www.numbersusa.com/content/learn/illegal-immigration/the-fiscal-cost-low-skilled-immigrants.html

Corn, no matter how you slice it, massive immigration is a disaster for Americans, and Americans want to stop it.

Borders are political constructs. Immigration is just migration of species over an arbitrarily political construct. If you don't like it, become part of the solution: make more citizens, have more kids.

propitup1 says

Corn you are only hearing what you want, not what I am saying.

Bullshit, you didn't say anything substantive the first go-around.

As for your links, the welfare stuff is absolute nonsense. We have discussed this on Patrick.net before. Undocumented immigrants do not get welfare. Anyone suggesting that they do is lying to you, outright, including in that report about Los Angeles County. It is possible that undocumented immigrants' US citizen children might get welfare, but I don't see a problem with that -- the kids didn't choose to be here, and it's better to have well-cared and educated children than not in the grand scheme of our economy.

I noticed that the Los Angeles County calculation is not backed up by any evidence of how they got $200M for public safety and $400M for healthcare (as part of LA County's more than $23B budget). Also, nice job completely ignoring the fact that in some states native folks receive more cash assistance than immigrants.

The cost vs. benefit of low-skilled immigrants is also not compared to low-skilled natives. I wonder why? I bet you'd find that low-skilled natives aren't pulling their weight either (including lots of teabaggers who don't pay federal income tax -- 47% by most estimates). It also ignores the fact that many immigrants that would be here under immigration reform would be high-skilled immigrants -- the anti-immigrant people seem to ignore that, and high-skilled immigrants raise wages.

(if you're going to make a ridiculous argument about so-called "anchor babies", don't bother. That is an ideological term that does not exist in reality. It is extremely difficult for an undocumented immigrant to stay here just because they have a US citizen child. Only uninformed people who don't know anything about immigration law refer to "anchor babies.")

corntrollio maybe you just don't know what propitup is talking about.

There are many ways illegals can get benefits, and anchor babies are not so uncommon.

FortWayne says

There are many ways illegals can get benefits, and anchor babies are not so uncommon.

Yes, and you're wrong on that. Again, if you think the concept of an "anchor baby" is common, you know absolutely nothing about immigration law.

What ways are there for undocumented immigrants to get benefits? You should be able to name them. Every study that anyone has mentioned on Patnet shows that US citizen (or LPR) children of undocumented immigrants might get some welfare, and that it's extremely rare that this welfare is composed of cash.

Repeating the opposite of what I say without facts or an argument isn't really very effective.

Corn,
swearing and calling me foul names just shows that you have a tired mind, and with a tired mind it's no wonder you don't understand anything that I have written.

Speaking of welfare benefits for illegal aliens, I'm getting my petitions ready for the signature drive that I am going to do this Sunday to repeal the California Dream act. Tax payer paid financial aid for Illegal Alien college students?!!!

Not if I have any say about it!

propitup1 says

it's no wonder you don't understand anything that I have written.

Maybe because everything you write is false and propagandist, and provably wrong. If you can provide facts and evidence that show differently, please do. Otherwise, pipe down, son. And have fun screwing up the country by trying to encourage people to be less educated -- I'm sure that'll work out well.