patrick.net

curious2 says

You don't understand why your use of the straw man fallacy was important, for the same reason you think pointing out a logical fallacy is weak.

AS for straw man fallacy ? I know what it is, but why not just directly and specifically tell me your point. I have to assume if rather than just tell me where the specific flaw is, you break in to a video about straw man fallacies, that you are on thin ice.

Your way is inefficient and intended as a substitute for drilling down quickly and efficiently to the point. I assume that this is also because of some tribal fear of yours, because you are the one that's all about winning or losing or actually trolling.

By the way, congratulations you trolled me very well there (instead of making a specific point you play a video about logic fallacy, imply I don't have legitimate logic, and bring Dan into the conversation, all as a substitute for a simple specific response).

marcus says

The generalization that all Islamic immigrants in France, believe

Nobody attributed anything to "all Islamic immigrants in France."

marcus says

your hero Dan

You're populating a field with straw men. I didn't call Dan a hero before, but I'm starting to think his efforts to withstand your nonsense deserve much more credit than I had previously recognized. You may actually prove Dan heroic.

marcus says

why not just directly and specifically tell me your point... you are the one that's all about winning or losing.

Although you refrain from name calling, your rejection of logical debate enables you to throw whatever fecal matter you can find. There is no prize at stake here, so I don't see why you would say it's "all about winning or losing." You reject logic itself as "weak," i.e. a lesser faculty, which enables you to throw tribal arguments around like your 2:41p straw man argument that derailed this discussion and caused my opinion of you to fall into negative numbers.

marcus says

the generalization that all or most of the French Islamic people and people of Islamic descent believe,

Nobody said anything about what all French people of Islamic descent believe, and you are the only one who stated any generalization about what most of them believe.

marcus says

one of your trolling frenzies...I say welcome to ignore (I don't have time for that kind of BS).

So now you resort to name-calling and retreat into ignore. You have at last proved that @Dan8267 was right about you.

Marcus: "I have heard of problems in France with their significant islamic population, because there is significant prejudice against them and they have a hard time finding work."

curious2: "Most French people have considerable patriotic pride in French culture. Saying "I want to replace French culture with Islamic culture" is unlikely to win much popularity in France, and that has nothing to do with prejudice."

curious2 says

You have at last proved that Dan was right about you.

Yes, because I don't have time for arguments about arguing, I have proven Dan correct. He's on ignore too (what is he 4th most ignored person on Patnet ?).

If you were even the slightest bit thoughtful you would have made an attempt to understand where I was coming from, instead you show yourself to be a troll, just trying to get a rise out of me.

That was not my intent, nor was it to win. I was just responding to:

Saying "I want to replace French culture with Islamic culture" is unlikely to win much popularity in France, and that has nothing to do with prejudice."

This was an incorrect contradiction of what I had said. I responded, and the next thing I know I'm using logic fallacies and making Dan correct about me. Fuck you.

marcus says

troll, just trying to get a rise out of me.

If you actually believe that I have any interest in getting "a rise out of" you, then you overestimate your importance. That would also be consistent with what @Dan8267 has written about you. I'm not going to reciprocate your name calling, and I'm not going to quote your profanity. For someone who claims to ignore me, you seem to quote me a lot, albeit out of context, so it seems you have trouble with consistency on that score also.

Back to the OP,,,

Lucky for those countries, you know what they need!

If you were a bird, and they (islamic countries) a fish, you'd brow beat them to deatj about how come they won't just give up swimming and start flying. So much so, you'd insist on forcing them up the tree to a nest, and demanding "fly now,,this, I COMMAND"

errc says

Back to the OP,,,

Lucky for those countries, you know what they need!

If you were a bird, and they (islamic countries) a fish, you'd brow beat them to deatj about how come they won't just give up swimming and start flying. So much so, you'd insist on forcing them up the tree to a nest, and demanding "fly now,,this, I COMMAND"

And your point is?

http://www.youtube.com/embed/gAjzH0vWSIA

LOL - I love the flying fish reply.

Also, Islamic countries are populated by actual humans, genetically almost identical to western countries. So, it isn't really a close comparison to say that they are being asked to grow wings. It's closer to - dare I say it - the straw man argument. Realistically, a sexual revolution may be the best hope for a country like Iran, where a very high percentage of the population are young but almost all power is held by an elderly few.

Yes curious you are on ignore, but I opened in another browser just to see:

"If you actually believe that I have any interest in getting "a rise out of" you, then you overestimate your importance."

Fair enough. I don't know your motivation. All I know is that rather than take the trouble to comprehend my point, or address in a specific way what you say is flawed logic, you post a video about straw man falacy, and you bring Dan into it, all as a sub substitute for specifics.

Then later say things like. "Wow. Nevermind debating then, go back to reciting your favorite prayers."

Talk about a sore loser.

Then to add irony, rather than ever be really specific you say I use a straw man argument, when I was responding to an assertion that rather than being prejudice, much of the French negative feelings toward Islamic immigrants can be attributed to the Ismaic pov ""I want to replace French culture with Islamic culture."

Not exactly a straw man in the sense that you are attributing false beliefs about your pov to me, the one you are arguing with, but still ironic, since I was reacting to your attribution of incorrect beliefs to a majority of French Islamic immigrants.

And then while we're on straw man:

curious2 says

You don't understand

curious2 says

and then of course take their side against those evil secular Europeans

I was noting that a significant majority of Islamic immigrants who are not radical islamists don't have those views and integrate well in French culture, especially over time. Never the less they experience plenty of prejudice, which even I tend to feel when I read posts such as the linked OP on reddit. But I think it is an exaggerated view.

I stick with my assessment of how much of a jerk you were here.

marcus says

Yes curious you are on ignore, but I opened in another browser just to see

...and posted another lengthy nonsensical comment with name-calling too. You seem to have wrought yourself into a frenzy, maybe you should have a cup of tea and read it again. The bottom line is, you made a straw man argument as a fake ad hominem attack, then you said pointing out your logical fallacy is "weak," then you fell into name-calling and profanity. Somehow I had the misimpression you worked as a teacher, but really that's got to be way off, even a 12yo could do a more convincing impression of a teacher.

I would dignify you with a response, but I have you on ignore (but I just had to open the thread in another browser to see your response, rendering the ignore feature useless)

Flying fish! Ttouche', lol

Yeah, so I opened another browser to try see his last comment in this sad back and forth and then to recap for anyone who's interested. It doesn't mean I will be opening another browser every time I see from the main page that he or you have commented on something.

That doesn't render all the countless times in the future that I won't see his or your comments in whatever threads I'm reading from chrome.

And I feel complete on this now. Even more so after reading his last comment. He doesn't know how to be wrong gracefully.

marcus says

to recap for anyone who's interested

LOL probably no one is interested, and if anyone is they would see your nonsensical "recap" doesn't fit the facts. Anyway this thread isn't about you or me or your weird obsession with me (putting me on ignore but then opening another browser to see my comments). You call me names and resort to profanity, and pretend to ignore me while using another browser to stalk my comments, it's just hilarious, but it does prove Dan was right about you all along, actually you might be even more dysfunctional than he guessed.

Did marcus say something? I wouldn't know, or care, because I have him on ignore,,,,but I just can't resist! Let me download another browser, and ill go check on there. But mark my word, when I get back, he's going all the way back on ignore! That oughtta show him

Download another browser ? I have Chrome, firefox and explorer installed already. If I was on a mac, I'm sure I would have safari too. Yeah, I could see your cute comment from the front page (errc).

marcus says

Yeah, I could see your cute comment from the front page.

Well, at least you think my comments are cute. I'm flattered. Really. Your ignoring-while-replying isn't weird or creepy or disingenuous at all, wait maybe it is.

Nice article by Ayaan Hirsi Ali

http://s3.amazonaws.com/rdf_files/Ayaan_Hirsi_Ali_Islam.pdf

Raw says

Nice article by Ayaan Hirsi Ali

http://s3.amazonaws.com/rdf_files/Ayaan_Hirsi_Ali_Islam.pdf

We must be patient. America needs to
empower those individuals and groups
who are already disenchanted with political
Islam by helping find and develop an
alternative. At the heart of that alternative
are the ideals of the rule of law and freedom
of thought, worship, and expression.
For these values there can and should be
no apologies, no groveling, no hesitation.

~ Ayaan Hirsi Ali

This is the right course, but politically it is nearly impossible.

rooemoore says

Raw says

Nice article by Ayaan Hirsi Ali

http://s3.amazonaws.com/rdf_files/Ayaan_Hirsi_Ali_Islam.pdf

We must be patient. America needs to

empower those individuals and groups

who are already disenchanted with political

Islam by helping find and develop an

alternative. At the heart of that alternative

are the ideals of the rule of law and freedom

of thought, worship, and expression.

For these values there can and should be

no apologies, no groveling, no hesitation.

~ Ayaan Hirsi Ali

This is the right course, but politically it is nearly impossible.

Why impossible Rooemoore? It may take time, but we have to pursue this. We don't have a choice.

There are North Africans who want to be French, see themselves as French, and while they are proud of their heritage (cuisine, music, etc.) are just as proud of their French status.

I know a French-Algierian couple that is as secular as you can wish for, they love to cook North African food (the guy is ironically allergic to Cilantro!) but they are in all other aspects typical Urban Left-Wing Parisians. Their parents came in the 60s during the troubles in Algeria.

HOWEVER, in the late 70s/early 80s, France was flooded with economic immigrants from Algeria who came to France solely for employment. In the mid 80s, there was a labor glut and many of those people were laid off. However, they did not return to Algeria but instead lived on Welfare and produced the typically large Arab families with ludicrous numbers of children. Those children grew up in the French version of Public Housing, are really into their "Oppression", and assert their identity by choosing to advance Radical Islam. The girls insist on covering up even though society encourages them not to, and there are multiple horror stories of French Girls being gang raped by Religious Fanatic North Africans. It also happens in Australia, too.

The French are sick of kowtowing to the fundamentalist Algerians, but unlike the faux-left Democratic Party of the US, most French parties, including the Socialist ones, adopted stricter rules and are now repatriating North Africans who commit violent crimes or incite violence in the name of the Most Merciful. They also banned burkas in schools, because French people have a right to French Culture in France, and in Western Culture - which guests should be polite and decent enough to honor - wearing masks is associated with deception and criminality. It is not very "Frank" behavior. In Burka wearers insist on the Burka, surely they will enjoy wearing it in lovely Algiers where they came from. And, it's basic politeness: When in Rome...

Not ALL North Africans in France are that way, but they are a substantial minority, just like bigot hicks are a substantial group in Alabama.

Similar problems exist in many places. In Sweden, they have the honor killing of a second-generation Arab who dared go on a date with a Swedish boy. In Holland, Ayaan Hirsi Ali lives in hiding, after Muslim Fundamentalists assassinated Theo Van Gogh who made a film about Females in Arab Countries.