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163
anonymous
2018 Jan 20, 6:10am
which makes me wonder. if something as useless as bitcoin (in theory it can be useful - but currently it's not useful yet) can grow the economy. what else grows the economy? basically everything that makes people spend and create jobs, even though the product is 100% useless or close to useless. i can create a silicon valley start-up tomorrow selling air (that's right - air that you breathe), promote it to popularity and it will have a positive impact on GDP.
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That’s already the economy though. Gas stations, fast food, hair salon and mani/pedi, shopping malls for extra costume clothing, and horseshit financial institutions to bilk labor in between.
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That’s already the economy though. Gas stations, fast food, hair salon and mani/pedi, shopping malls for extra costume clothing, and horseshit financial institutions to bilk labor in between.
164
WookieMan
2018 Jan 20, 6:31am
WookieMan
2018 Jan 20, 6:31am
BorderPatrol says
Not saying you're wrong, but would love to see some IRS data on it. I haven't yet. You also almost certainly will be able to claim being correct, but at what level? Let's say the market cap of Bitcoin (I know there are a ton of others) is about $200 billion at current price. Then figure that not everyone was a winner in that market cap increasing or that not everyone sold their stake and took their profits. Then there's the tax evaders. Then the fact, in this very thread, it was stated 50% of bitcoin is held outside the US. We also know there are potentially a million or so coins that could literally just be lost and there will be no gains or losses on them ever. The amount of tax this will generate for the federal government probably doesn't even come close to touching the least valuable company in the S&P 500. Then there's the utter waste of resources in mining this stuff.
So sure, the US is collecting taxes on this. Would they have collected taxes though if these same people invested in other avenues? Would other business have created the same number of jobs with the same capital allocated to them as to crypto ? My argument would be yes. So I don't see it as a job creator, "start up" or driver of economic growth at all really. Most of the money would have been invested elsewhere will much more solid long term growth and stability. Bitcoin completely crashes and it does more harm then anything good it's done on this run up.
Again, I have not seen a compelling argument or discussion yet. My guess 99.9% of everyone here is completely working in the world of the USD. Why people are interested in devaluing their own future is kind of strange to me. Crypto gains for a US citizen are going to be transferred to dollars. This alone should scare anyone arguing there's actual value in crypto. It's a trade and not an investment or store of value.
as strange as this sounds, it is 100% correct. (it doesn't address the untaxable aspect of bitcoin payments and the rest of the paragraph is either completely wrong or doesn't make sense but that's another story.) crypto-currencies DO grow the economy.
Not saying you're wrong, but would love to see some IRS data on it. I haven't yet. You also almost certainly will be able to claim being correct, but at what level? Let's say the market cap of Bitcoin (I know there are a ton of others) is about $200 billion at current price. Then figure that not everyone was a winner in that market cap increasing or that not everyone sold their stake and took their profits. Then there's the tax evaders. Then the fact, in this very thread, it was stated 50% of bitcoin is held outside the US. We also know there are potentially a million or so coins that could literally just be lost and there will be no gains or losses on them ever. The amount of tax this will generate for the federal government probably doesn't even come close to touching the least valuable company in the S&P 500. Then there's the utter waste of resources in mining this stuff.
So sure, the US is collecting taxes on this. Would they have collected taxes though if these same people invested in other avenues? Would other business have created the same number of jobs with the same capital allocated to them as to crypto ? My argument would be yes. So I don't see it as a job creator, "start up" or driver of economic growth at all really. Most of the money would have been invested elsewhere will much more solid long term growth and stability. Bitcoin completely crashes and it does more harm then anything good it's done on this run up.
Again, I have not seen a compelling argument or discussion yet. My guess 99.9% of everyone here is completely working in the world of the USD. Why people are interested in devaluing their own future is kind of strange to me. Crypto gains for a US citizen are going to be transferred to dollars. This alone should scare anyone arguing there's actual value in crypto. It's a trade and not an investment or store of value.
165
anonymous
2018 Jan 20, 7:33am
Wookieman,
“I recently sent money to a person visiting Italy on my phone at lunch”
What fees did you incur and what system did you use?
“I recently sent money to a person visiting Italy on my phone at lunch”
What fees did you incur and what system did you use?
166
anonymous
2018 Jan 20, 7:33am
Investing in crypto does not hurt the dollar. Investing in it lets you participate in this fast, wealth creating economy. The good news, this is just the beginning. You can’t shut down innovation. The tech is here to stay. Why not participate and gain from it? Regarding the taxes: until recently it was not crystal clear how to treat these currencies and what is a taxable event in regards to your trades. Now, it just takes minutes to calculate your taxes by utilizing bitcoin.tax (for example). People who invest in crypto will pay their taxes. You don’t ever want to be on the IRS bad boy list.
167
WookieMan
2018 Jan 20, 9:20am
WookieMan
2018 Jan 20, 9:20am
anon_3a1a3 says
Paypal. Paid 5 USD fee. Owed someone 120 EU. Did this in literally 20 seconds while driving. I now won't be able to send my kids to college due to this astronomical fee.
80-90% of people don't make individual transactions with other people, in other countries, with foreign currencies. Even people and businesses that do, I really don't think you're going to cut that middle man out. Why do we still have real estate brokers? It's the exact same principle from the fee based perspective except on an infinitely higher level as a percentage of the biggest purchase you'll ever make in your life (with real estate brokers). Pretty much EVERY country has some form of real estate broker skimming off the transfer of property. Why does anyone think you can eliminate the middle man in currencies if we can't do it with real estate?
My answer is you can't and won't. I'm not arguing that this tech wouldn't be good for most. I'd actually say I'm on the side I'm arguing against right now if that makes any sense. What I'm mainly arguing is what happens to Visa, Master Card, American Express, etc? All those jobs. What happens to the tax dollars they were paying. This is exactly why it's near impossible to cut governemnt expenses. It's extraordinarily difficult to change the status quo. Uber uprooting taxi service. Fine, that's such a small sliver of the economy. Our actual currency itself, I'm just not seeing it and therefore don't see value in these cryptos.
It's a different question now, but why do we have a 3rd party, real estate brokers still? And what makes you think it's possible to get rid of the third party in currency transactions when we can't in real estate? Isn't that ultimately how crypto can and will become successful, dump the middle man?
What fees did you incur and what system did you use?
Paypal. Paid 5 USD fee. Owed someone 120 EU. Did this in literally 20 seconds while driving. I now won't be able to send my kids to college due to this astronomical fee.
80-90% of people don't make individual transactions with other people, in other countries, with foreign currencies. Even people and businesses that do, I really don't think you're going to cut that middle man out. Why do we still have real estate brokers? It's the exact same principle from the fee based perspective except on an infinitely higher level as a percentage of the biggest purchase you'll ever make in your life (with real estate brokers). Pretty much EVERY country has some form of real estate broker skimming off the transfer of property. Why does anyone think you can eliminate the middle man in currencies if we can't do it with real estate?
My answer is you can't and won't. I'm not arguing that this tech wouldn't be good for most. I'd actually say I'm on the side I'm arguing against right now if that makes any sense. What I'm mainly arguing is what happens to Visa, Master Card, American Express, etc? All those jobs. What happens to the tax dollars they were paying. This is exactly why it's near impossible to cut governemnt expenses. It's extraordinarily difficult to change the status quo. Uber uprooting taxi service. Fine, that's such a small sliver of the economy. Our actual currency itself, I'm just not seeing it and therefore don't see value in these cryptos.
It's a different question now, but why do we have a 3rd party, real estate brokers still? And what makes you think it's possible to get rid of the third party in currency transactions when we can't in real estate? Isn't that ultimately how crypto can and will become successful, dump the middle man?
168
anonymous
2018 Jan 20, 10:02am
What I'm mainly arguing is what happens to Visa, Master Card, American Express, etc? All those jobs.
They are already involved with crypto and hiring blockchain talent for the new jobs they’re creating
They are already involved with crypto and hiring blockchain talent for the new jobs they’re creating
169
anonymous
2018 Jan 20, 11:58am
Exactly. Companies that don’t embrace new technology (like block chain) will end up like Kodak! Oh wait, even Kodak is trying to jump on the crypto train.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.coindesk.com/kodak-launching-cryptocurrency-photographers/amp/
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.coindesk.com/kodak-launching-cryptocurrency-photographers/amp/
170
FortWayne
2018 Jan 20, 1:03pm
FortWayne
2018 Jan 20, 1:03pm
anon_b7985 says
If it provides no value, it's rather pointless to embrace it.
Exactly. Companies that don’t embrace new technology (like block chain) will end up like Kodak! Oh wait, even Kodak is trying to jump on the crypto train.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.coindesk.com/kodak-launching-cryptocurrency-photographers/amp/
If it provides no value, it's rather pointless to embrace it.
171
Onvacation
2018 Jan 20, 1:28pm
Onvacation
2018 Jan 20, 1:28pm
FortWayne says
Not true. It's rare. Once they mine the last one there won't be anymore.
Buy now or be priced out FOREVER!
What will you tell your grandchildren when they ask you why you condemned the family to poverty when you could have bought crypto-currency?
If it provides no value, it's rather pointless to embrace it.
Not true. It's rare. Once they mine the last one there won't be anymore.
Buy now or be priced out FOREVER!
What will you tell your grandchildren when they ask you why you condemned the family to poverty when you could have bought crypto-currency?
172
anonymous
2018 Jan 20, 2:12pm
“If it provides no value, it's rather pointless to embrace it.“
Certainly created a lot of value for me. If something that apparently has no value makes me rich I am fine with that! Keep it going! I just bought the dip!
Certainly created a lot of value for me. If something that apparently has no value makes me rich I am fine with that! Keep it going! I just bought the dip!
173
Patrick
2018 Jan 20, 2:16pm
Patrick
2018 Jan 20, 2:16pm
Crypto currencies have a lot of value for people who don't like the idea that the government can confiscate all the money in a bank account at any time.
I have a friend who found this out during a dispute with the dmv. They simply confiscated the disputed amount from his checking account, and he had never even told them about the account. They can look it up by ssn.
I have a friend who found this out during a dispute with the dmv. They simply confiscated the disputed amount from his checking account, and he had never even told them about the account. They can look it up by ssn.
175
mell
2018 Feb 5, 5:19pm
Patrick says
That's true and why they are here to stay, but that doesn't make them worth $19k, likely not even $5k. Hard to say where it will eventually settle.
Crypto currencies have a lot of value for people who don't like the idea that the government can confiscate all the money in a bank account at any time.
I have a friend who found this out during a dispute with the dmv. They simply confiscated the disputed amount from his checking account, and he had never even told them about the account. They can look it up by ssn.
That's true and why they are here to stay, but that doesn't make them worth $19k, likely not even $5k. Hard to say where it will eventually settle.
176
RWSGFY
2018 Feb 5, 6:04pm
RWSGFY
2018 Feb 5, 6:04pm
mell says
Something like Tether, i.e. crypto coin which costs exactly $1 would be ideal for these people who want to be independent from the banking system but still able to transfer money electronically.
Crypto currencies have a lot of value for people who don't like the idea that the government can confiscate all the money in a bank account at any time.
I have a friend who found this out during a dispute with the dmv. They simply confiscated the disputed amount from his checking account, and he had never even told them about the account. They can look it up by ssn.
That's true and why they are here to stay, but that doesn't make them worth $19k, likely not even $5k. Hard to say where it will eventually settle.
Something like Tether, i.e. crypto coin which costs exactly $1 would be ideal for these people who want to be independent from the banking system but still able to transfer money electronically.
178
anonymous
2018 Feb 5, 7:19pm
Wow, this will go down in history as one of the best buying opportunities. Big daddy Goes down to 5k or so and will end up at 60k in April!
179
RWSGFY
2018 Feb 5, 7:29pm
RWSGFY
2018 Feb 5, 7:29pm
anon_3a1a3 says
Yep, all the smart cookies are liquidating their shares in stock market Ponzi scheme to be ready to go all in when BTC hits the sweet spot @ $5K.
Wow, this will go down in history as one of the best buying opportunities. Big daddy Goes down to 5k or so and will end up at 60k in April!
Yep, all the smart cookies are liquidating their shares in stock market Ponzi scheme to be ready to go all in when BTC hits the sweet spot @ $5K.
180
lostand confused
2018 Feb 5, 7:47pm
lostand confused
2018 Feb 5, 7:47pm
Satoshi_Nakamoto says
I wonder if anyone bought at 20k and is holding?!!
Yep, all the smart cookies are liquidating their shares in stock market Ponzi scheme to be ready to go all in when BTC hits the sweet spot @ $5K.
I wonder if anyone bought at 20k and is holding?!!
181
WookieMan
2018 Feb 5, 7:52pm
WookieMan
2018 Feb 5, 7:52pm
Satoshi_Nakamoto says
Hits that number the bottom falls out IMHO. It's going to land in the $1,000-$2,500 range if I was betting on it, which I'm not. The amount of people losing money on the way down with this thinking it's going to bounce is staggering. The next few days should be interesting to say the least.
BTC hits the sweet spot @ $5K.
Hits that number the bottom falls out IMHO. It's going to land in the $1,000-$2,500 range if I was betting on it, which I'm not. The amount of people losing money on the way down with this thinking it's going to bounce is staggering. The next few days should be interesting to say the least.
182
anonymous
2018 Feb 5, 10:34pm
The long term? bitcoin is going to $0.
As some point, the electricity will cost more than the profit from mining, and then it is basically finished.
As some point, the electricity will cost more than the profit from mining, and then it is basically finished.
183
Patrick
2018 Feb 5, 10:35pm
Patrick
2018 Feb 5, 10:35pm
anon_eba5e says
There will still be profits to be made simply validating blocks in the blockchain even after all 21 million bitcoins are mined. It was planned that way from the beginning.
The long term? bitcoin is going to $0.
As some point, the electricity will cost more than the profit from mining, and then it is basically finished.
There will still be profits to be made simply validating blocks in the blockchain even after all 21 million bitcoins are mined. It was planned that way from the beginning.
184
anonymous
2018 Feb 10, 6:40pm
Sweet, another buying opportunity is coming up. It’s like have Christmas every two weeks. While I am no longer confident we will get the 4-5k range for big daddy (I would go in hard) I think we will form a double bottom at the 6k range. When that happens the big buy signal is flashing hard. This baby will bounce so hard, I call 1.5 trillion market cap by the end of the year. Now that regulators are on board the floodgates are open. Remember Blood on the street means buy buy buy!
185
anonymous
2018 Feb 11, 7:35am
20k will look very cheap once BTC hits 100k
lostand confused says
lostand confused says
Satoshi_Nakamoto saysYep, all the smart cookies are liquidating their shares in stock market Ponzi scheme to be ready to go all in when BTC hits the sweet spot @ $5K.
I wonder if anyone bought at 20k and is holding?!!
186
CBOEtrader
2018 Feb 11, 7:42am
CBOEtrader
2018 Feb 11, 7:42am
anon_3a1a3 says
What about when it hits a bazillion?
20k will look very cheap once BTC hits 100k
lostand confused saysSatoshi_Nakamoto saysYep, all the smart cookies are liquidating their shares in stock market Ponzi scheme to be ready to go all in when BTC hits the sweet spot @ $5K.
I wonder if anyone bought at 20k and is holding?!!
What about when it hits a bazillion?
187
anonymous
2018 Feb 11, 2:16pm
100k this year, 500k next year, after that, prob. A million.
US regulators/government loves bitcoin
https://www.google.com/amp/s/cointelegraph.com/news/us-arizona-senate-passes-bill-to-allow-tax-payments-in-bitcoin/amp
US regulators/government loves bitcoin
https://www.google.com/amp/s/cointelegraph.com/news/us-arizona-senate-passes-bill-to-allow-tax-payments-in-bitcoin/amp
188
RWSGFY
2018 Feb 11, 3:07pm
RWSGFY
2018 Feb 11, 3:07pm
anon_f70ca says
Yes! Mark this twit, bitchez!
100k this year, 500k next year, after that, prob. A million.
Yes! Mark this twit, bitchez!
190
anonymous
2018 Feb 11, 11:15pm
First we go back down to 6k. We need that confirmation one more time. Big buy signal, volume will come in and from there it will be moooooning. Get ready for the fun!
191
WookieMan
2018 Feb 13, 10:25pm
WookieMan
2018 Feb 13, 10:25pm
anon_fad35 says
What do you mean by back? Hits $9k or goes above it? Basically hit that yesterday, about $90 short. What's your move when that happens? We really need to know when to wake you up so we can find out how you played BTC.
Wake me up when price goes back to $9k again.
What do you mean by back? Hits $9k or goes above it? Basically hit that yesterday, about $90 short. What's your move when that happens? We really need to know when to wake you up so we can find out how you played BTC.
192
anonymous
2018 Feb 14, 6:48am
Wookie, I am guessing he is referring to a point of resistance. This is about technical analysis/market sentiment. If resistance levels are broken they become support levels. 9k was a heavy point of resistance and breaking it is signaling a bullish trend. We need to bounce off the 9k a couple times to confirm the new support levels.
It’s fun to wake up and see your coins go up. It’s a great time to buy now before the next bull run starts.
It’s fun to wake up and see your coins go up. It’s a great time to buy now before the next bull run starts.
193
anonymous
2018 Feb 14, 3:51pm
Oh yea, just broke 9400! Hope we start a bull run soon. If we can hold up above 9,5k the next few days we will probably see volume come back and kick off the next bull run
194
anonymous
2018 Feb 15, 6:41am
https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-02-14/terrified-bitcoin-banks-forced-innovate-first-time-40-years
Terrified bitcoin banks forced to innovate first time in 40 years
Terrified bitcoin banks forced to innovate first time in 40 years
196
anonymous
2018 Feb 16, 8:02am
Got so quiet here. Where are all those bitcoin haters and perma crypto bears? “It’s going to zero!!! Sell now!!”
197
anonymous
2018 Feb 16, 9:38am
https://twitter.com/TheEllenShow/status/964287117466640389
Ellen DeGeneres introduces Bitcoin to millions of viewers. Thank you Ellen!
Ellen DeGeneres introduces Bitcoin to millions of viewers. Thank you Ellen!
198
WookieMan
2018 Feb 16, 10:49am
WookieMan
2018 Feb 16, 10:49am
anon_3a1a3 says
Still here. Markets do fluctuate. My opinion hasn't changed.
Got so quiet here. Where are all those bitcoin haters and perma crypto bears? “It’s going to zero!!! Sell now!!”
Still here. Markets do fluctuate. My opinion hasn't changed.
199
anonymous
2018 Feb 16, 11:09am
Not going to recover so quick it simply has tested the 50% loss in MC and is likely to flip big time the fact it blew through 61.8 so hard shows very good odds of a min. test of 7500/61.8 and the weight of price possibly taking it much lower then the last low of 6k tgt 4500, 2350 +/-.... Don't FOMO into BTC you will regret it, BTC has to pay for all the broken promises and general inefficiencies price discovery has just begun and will expose...
201
anonymous
2018 Feb 16, 11:39am
I think it’s very possible that it will
Go down hard one more timeduring this bear market/correction. I can’t see it testing less than 5-6k though. Too much demand. What ever happens, I am ready to buy more when it retraces.
Go down hard one more timeduring this bear market/correction. I can’t see it testing less than 5-6k though. Too much demand. What ever happens, I am ready to buy more when it retraces.
202
WookieMan
2018 Feb 16, 11:40am
WookieMan
2018 Feb 16, 11:40am
anon_2fbc3 says
Thanks for giving what appears to be a solid, intelligent response. I don't necessarily grasp all the jargon (I recognize it), but it make sense somewhat.
Now BTC bulls, give me something like this. IMO I haven't seen anyone explain why they think this will continue to go up. Tell me what if I buy one coin, with my American dollars at $10k today, it will be worth $15k in say 6 months?
The pinkies already exist. I don't see how BTC is much different. Just with a whole hell of a lot less info to research on it or know who holds it.
As usual, don't take this as investment advice. There is a risk of loss.
Not going to recover so quick it simply has tested the 50% loss in MC and is likely to flip big time the fact it blew through 61.8 so hard shows very good odds of a min. test of 7500/61.8 and the weight of price possibly taking it much lower then the last low of 6k tgt 4500, 2350 +/-.... Don't FOMO into BTC you will regret it, BTC has to pay for all the broken promises and general inefficiencies price discovery has just begun and will expose...
Thanks for giving what appears to be a solid, intelligent response. I don't necessarily grasp all the jargon (I recognize it), but it make sense somewhat.
Now BTC bulls, give me something like this. IMO I haven't seen anyone explain why they think this will continue to go up. Tell me what if I buy one coin, with my American dollars at $10k today, it will be worth $15k in say 6 months?
The pinkies already exist. I don't see how BTC is much different. Just with a whole hell of a lot less info to research on it or know who holds it.
As usual, don't take this as investment advice. There is a risk of loss.
« First « Previous Comments 163 - 202 of 521 Next » Last » Search these comments
Hi guys,
I'd like to start a conversation on crypto-currency, particularly Bitcoin.
What do you all think about it from an investment point of view today? I have some buddies in the finance world who are quite bullish on it and claim we are just scratching the surface. Judging by the recent performance, they may be right.
For people who are investing in Bitcoin, what are you using to invest and what recommendations do you have for a new investor?
Also, how are gains taxed compared to typical stock market gains?
I read this week that over 100,000 merchants in the USA are accepting Bitcoin today.
At the same time, digital currency does scare me a bit as it seems so abstract. Curious what PatNet thinks.
Thanks guys!