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10 atheist quotes that will make you question religion
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2019 Apr 4, 7:14am 3,685 views 87 comments
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18
Shaman
2019 Apr 5, 7:49am
Shaman
2019 Apr 5, 7:49am
d6rB says
And do you always want help when you’re having a hard time? Does stepping in to “do it for you” help kids learn?
On the other hand, who is to say whether God helps those, or at least some of those, who ask for it?
Gentleman is supposed to help those in distress.
And do you always want help when you’re having a hard time? Does stepping in to “do it for you” help kids learn?
On the other hand, who is to say whether God helps those, or at least some of those, who ask for it?
19
Patrick
2019 Apr 5, 7:52am
Patrick
2019 Apr 5, 7:52am
Religion has many profound benefits regardless of the objective truth or falsity of the specific beliefs. The biggest benefit is probably a sense of community, something totally missing from the liberal globalist mindset, which puts the individual above the community at all times.
https://bestlifeonline.com/the-secret-reason-why-religious-people-live-longer/
https://bestlifeonline.com/the-secret-reason-why-religious-people-live-longer/
Ohio State University researchers analyzed the obituaries of over 1,000 Americans across the country and found that, taking into account the sex and marital status of those who died, those who had religious affiliations lived an average of four years longer than those who didn’t.
“Religious affiliation had nearly as strong an effect on longevity as gender does, which is a matter of years of life,” said Laura Wallace, a doctoral student in psychology at The Ohio State University and the lead author of the study.
20
Blue
2019 Apr 5, 9:05am
The benefits of being an atheist are:
1) Freedom: Living your life without need to defer to someones interpretation of their god's rules.
2) Responsibility: Living your life knowing that you are ultimately responsible for your actions.
3) Meaning: Living a finite life requires you to prioritize the activities in your life.
4) Love: Living a finite life makes you want to leave a positive legacy through your children.
5) Reality: Living your life practically and pragmatically, without need to refer to the supernatural.
6) Harmony: Living life without cognitive dissonance. No need to believe in things that are not there.
https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20110312095753AApZMnO
https://bigthink.com/paul-ratner/10-benefits-of-atheism
1) Freedom: Living your life without need to defer to someones interpretation of their god's rules.
2) Responsibility: Living your life knowing that you are ultimately responsible for your actions.
3) Meaning: Living a finite life requires you to prioritize the activities in your life.
4) Love: Living a finite life makes you want to leave a positive legacy through your children.
5) Reality: Living your life practically and pragmatically, without need to refer to the supernatural.
6) Harmony: Living life without cognitive dissonance. No need to believe in things that are not there.
https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20110312095753AApZMnO
https://bigthink.com/paul-ratner/10-benefits-of-atheism
21
clambo
2019 Apr 5, 9:25am
Religion is an interesting invention by man. I think it's popular for some reasons mentioned above which maybe I will express more clumsily.
People may fear random events so much that they invent a power to regulate them for us. Religion has created non-existent yet powerful gods to do things to protect us or even help us.
What level of insanity does it take to believe you must 1. capture people 2. bring them to the top of a pyramid 3. cut out their live beating hearts to please a non-existent god to make crops flourish? Religious insanity did this.
The concept of many gods being boiled down to just one god in Christianity and islam is considered an advancement of thought on the subject. How quaint, now there is a god so omnipotent he keeps track of what happens all day long to the population of the earth, thousands of millions of people. The ancient gods had more reasonable tasks; one guy was in charge of weather, another god in charge of the oceans, etc.
Humans like to put someone else "in charge" or in a position of authority. This is a way to delegate responsibility that makes us feel comfortable maybe.
Recall that for thousands of years the only people who had a decent standard of living were 1. royalty 2. priests
The rest were essentially slaves of 1&2 who had to give the fruits of their toil to keep them happy.
I hear females often talk about "karma" in the sense that if they think you did something wrong to someone else, you will be punished somehow later by someone or something. This is the belief in a judge figure who dispenses out justice to right the wrongs of everyday existence.
My problem with some religions is it asks you to believe complete nonsense depending on which flavor you choose; I have met people who actually do not believe evolution happened, that dinosaurs are an invention or maybe "dragons" and that we have descended from Adam and Eve.
Quaint but dangerous beliefs sometimes cause more human suffering; for many years contraception has been forbidden by the catholic church, so the poorest people had more children. I have spoken to some very poor in Mexico and they may say that "god will provide for us somehow" and I feel sorry for them.
LIke Blue above, I don't submit to the morality foisted upon me by others. I often reflect on this myself; I wish I had been kinder in this situation or that, or I wish I had helped this person more or etc. but I don't feel the need to confess this or to call it a sin.
We all instinctively wish there were a higher authority to right wrongs against us somehow, or to save us from random natural events. Being religious is a comfort to many who like to feel there is really some protector "up there watching over us".
One funny example was my friend went to visit relatives on the North Shore of Hawaii; she told me many surfers attend church because they want to be protected and not drown if things go wrong on the huge waves. I said "doesn't god tell them to stop putting their lives in danger so he doesn't have to 'save them'?"
People may fear random events so much that they invent a power to regulate them for us. Religion has created non-existent yet powerful gods to do things to protect us or even help us.
What level of insanity does it take to believe you must 1. capture people 2. bring them to the top of a pyramid 3. cut out their live beating hearts to please a non-existent god to make crops flourish? Religious insanity did this.
The concept of many gods being boiled down to just one god in Christianity and islam is considered an advancement of thought on the subject. How quaint, now there is a god so omnipotent he keeps track of what happens all day long to the population of the earth, thousands of millions of people. The ancient gods had more reasonable tasks; one guy was in charge of weather, another god in charge of the oceans, etc.
Humans like to put someone else "in charge" or in a position of authority. This is a way to delegate responsibility that makes us feel comfortable maybe.
Recall that for thousands of years the only people who had a decent standard of living were 1. royalty 2. priests
The rest were essentially slaves of 1&2 who had to give the fruits of their toil to keep them happy.
I hear females often talk about "karma" in the sense that if they think you did something wrong to someone else, you will be punished somehow later by someone or something. This is the belief in a judge figure who dispenses out justice to right the wrongs of everyday existence.
My problem with some religions is it asks you to believe complete nonsense depending on which flavor you choose; I have met people who actually do not believe evolution happened, that dinosaurs are an invention or maybe "dragons" and that we have descended from Adam and Eve.
Quaint but dangerous beliefs sometimes cause more human suffering; for many years contraception has been forbidden by the catholic church, so the poorest people had more children. I have spoken to some very poor in Mexico and they may say that "god will provide for us somehow" and I feel sorry for them.
LIke Blue above, I don't submit to the morality foisted upon me by others. I often reflect on this myself; I wish I had been kinder in this situation or that, or I wish I had helped this person more or etc. but I don't feel the need to confess this or to call it a sin.
We all instinctively wish there were a higher authority to right wrongs against us somehow, or to save us from random natural events. Being religious is a comfort to many who like to feel there is really some protector "up there watching over us".
One funny example was my friend went to visit relatives on the North Shore of Hawaii; she told me many surfers attend church because they want to be protected and not drown if things go wrong on the huge waves. I said "doesn't god tell them to stop putting their lives in danger so he doesn't have to 'save them'?"
22
Bd6r
2019 Apr 5, 10:11am
Bd6r
2019 Apr 5, 10:11am
Quigley says
No. If not helping me would make me a better/stronger person, I should not be "helped". However, I am sure that tens of thousands dying in natural disasters do not become better people. Same for ones killed in concentration camps etc.
And do you always want help when you’re having a hard time?
No. If not helping me would make me a better/stronger person, I should not be "helped". However, I am sure that tens of thousands dying in natural disasters do not become better people. Same for ones killed in concentration camps etc.
23
Ceffer
2019 Apr 5, 10:57am
Ceffer
2019 Apr 5, 10:57am
Who cares as long as God is on your side, you speak for him (XER, XIT), and he (XER, XIT) allows you to kill the fuck out of anybody you please.
24
anonymous
2019 Apr 5, 11:49am
Ceffer says
Since "God" is on everyone's side in wars - it shows you what a sense of humor he/she/it has...
Who cares as long as God is on your side
Since "God" is on everyone's side in wars - it shows you what a sense of humor he/she/it has...
25
anonymous
2019 Apr 5, 11:55am
Patrick says
Religion is not required to get that sense of "community" when a group of people are abused, controlled, ethnically cleansed, harassed, systematically fucked over etc. by another group for decades and generations.
The biggest benefit is probably a sense of community, something totally missing from the liberal globalist mindset, which puts the individual above the community at all times.
Religion is not required to get that sense of "community" when a group of people are abused, controlled, ethnically cleansed, harassed, systematically fucked over etc. by another group for decades and generations.
26
anonymous
2019 Apr 5, 11:56am
Blue says
Not being hounded to give up 10% (tithe) for the good of the church and God.
The benefits of being an atheist are:
Not being hounded to give up 10% (tithe) for the good of the church and God.
27
anonymous
2019 Apr 5, 11:57am
Who is to say God is male? Why can't God be an "it" like in comment 17 or for that matter both male and female ?
28
EBGuy
2019 Apr 5, 12:21pm
Kakistocracy says
It is required to transcend family and clan boundaries. That's why it's such a powerful evolutionary force. It allows you to organize goups of disparate people & tribes. Otherwise, you're left in a state of perpetual tribal warfare.
Religion is not required to get that sense of "community" when a group of people are abused, controlled, ethnically cleansed, harassed, systematically fucked over etc. by another group for decades and generations.
It is required to transcend family and clan boundaries. That's why it's such a powerful evolutionary force. It allows you to organize goups of disparate people & tribes. Otherwise, you're left in a state of perpetual tribal warfare.
29
anonymous
2019 Apr 5, 12:28pm
EBGuy says
Which is pretty much the current state of affairs both in the U.S. and many other countries and there is no shortage of religion either - it actually helps divide people further while.organizing groups of disparate people & tribes into separate and unequal fiefdoms of hate against anyone that is not them.
Otherwise, you're left in a state of perpetual tribal warfare.
Which is pretty much the current state of affairs both in the U.S. and many other countries and there is no shortage of religion either - it actually helps divide people further while.organizing groups of disparate people & tribes into separate and unequal fiefdoms of hate against anyone that is not them.
30
anonymous
2019 Apr 5, 12:29pm
EBGuy says
That would be science where you can not just make up shit as you go along
That's why it's such a powerful evolutionary force
That would be science where you can not just make up shit as you go along
31
EBGuy
2019 Apr 5, 1:03pm
And yet, we're evolved for the storyverse. Have you listened to Sam Harris try to describe a soccer match?
32
Shaman
2019 Apr 5, 1:05pm
Shaman
2019 Apr 5, 1:05pm
Kakistocracy says
Which would mean that trannies hate science because it proves they are mental.
EBGuy saysThat's why it's such a powerful evolutionary force
That would be science where you can not just make up shit as you go along
Which would mean that trannies hate science because it proves they are mental.
33
Bd6r
2019 Apr 5, 1:07pm
Bd6r
2019 Apr 5, 1:07pm
EBGuy says
Pax Romana and now US are not based on religion. Neither is most of Europe
It is required to transcend family and clan boundaries.
Pax Romana and now US are not based on religion. Neither is most of Europe
34
EBGuy
2019 Apr 5, 1:28pm
d6rB says
Don't be so sure about that...
As an agnostic in terms of his religious commitments, in this excerpt Tom Holland nevertheless describes the way that the birth of Christianity has shaped much of what we value in Western society in terms of human rights, culture and rule of law.
www.youtube.com/embed/AIJ9gK47Ogw
Pax Romana and now US are not based on religion. Neither is most of Europe
Don't be so sure about that...
As an agnostic in terms of his religious commitments, in this excerpt Tom Holland nevertheless describes the way that the birth of Christianity has shaped much of what we value in Western society in terms of human rights, culture and rule of law.
www.youtube.com/embed/AIJ9gK47Ogw
35
EBGuy
2019 Apr 7, 10:56pm
Kakistocracy says
Take a deep breath my friend. The United States isn't in a state of perpetual tribal warfare. According to the ADL, we had only 50 extremist killings in a country of 327 million people... and some of those killings were extremists murdering their own children or relatives -- not members of a tribal outgroup.
Which is pretty much the current state of affairs both in the U.S.
Take a deep breath my friend. The United States isn't in a state of perpetual tribal warfare. According to the ADL, we had only 50 extremist killings in a country of 327 million people... and some of those killings were extremists murdering their own children or relatives -- not members of a tribal outgroup.
36
komputodo
2019 Apr 7, 11:19pm
komputodo
2019 Apr 7, 11:19pm
Quigley says
Is it possible that he has a severe case of TDS?
Anyone else want to add to the list of things Kaki won’t ever question?
Is it possible that he has a severe case of TDS?
37
Blue
2019 Apr 8, 12:08am
No one can bring Atheist back to barn. But can make them pretended believer with discrimination etc.
In US about 26% are out of barn, this number is about 40% for young and its growing. This will make a great country. A day will come for believer of old, existing or brand new god of any type, to be dragged onto mental facility.
In US about 26% are out of barn, this number is about 40% for young and its growing. This will make a great country. A day will come for believer of old, existing or brand new god of any type, to be dragged onto mental facility.
38
anonymous
2019 Apr 8, 2:09am
EBGuy says
Au contraire - no need for killing when you have "cold wars" of political tribal warfare 24 x 7 and election campaigning that never ends.
Add in the unresolved problems (cold wars) from the past decades of race, sexuality, gender, etc.
The country is no more at harmony now, then when all the winds of discontent were blamed on the previous administration.
Bringing segments of the population of the country together on anger and hate seems to be the objective as opposed to bringing the greater population together on things for the good of society in general.
This would seem to be directly related to a lack of leadership - from any one person or other assemblage of people in any political or religious affiliation(s).
Take a deep breath my friend. The United States isn't in a state of perpetual tribal warfare
Au contraire - no need for killing when you have "cold wars" of political tribal warfare 24 x 7 and election campaigning that never ends.
Add in the unresolved problems (cold wars) from the past decades of race, sexuality, gender, etc.
The country is no more at harmony now, then when all the winds of discontent were blamed on the previous administration.
Bringing segments of the population of the country together on anger and hate seems to be the objective as opposed to bringing the greater population together on things for the good of society in general.
This would seem to be directly related to a lack of leadership - from any one person or other assemblage of people in any political or religious affiliation(s).
40
FuckTheMainstreamMedia
2019 Apr 8, 5:06am
FuckTheMainstreamMedia
2019 Apr 8, 5:06am
This is all so silly. The Democrats and the left are busy building a new religion around ideals where government replaces God.
Amazingly, supported by nearly all the ardent atheists!
Amazingly, supported by nearly all the ardent atheists!
41
Reality
2019 Apr 8, 6:05am
Blue says
LOL! That too has happened previously: the guillotine was invented to speed up the chopping of heads belonging to Catholic priests and nuns, but it didn't take long before the machine started working on the necks of the revolutionaries. The French Revolution was officially atheistic, but it took very little time before the atheistic leaders realized that they needed religion to run the society (as neighbors started denouncing neighbors to death in hopes of looting the victim families): first the Church of Reason, then the Church of Supreme-Being (Robespire himself), with the Church of Supreme-Being chopping off the heads of the leaders of the Church of Reason (his former friends) quickly followed by the head of the Church of Supreme-Being being severed on the guillotine.
When a previously predominant traditional religion dies in a society/culture, what happens is crisis of civilization, usually characterized by high crime rate, personality cult and chaos, until the next predominant religious tradition can be established (of course, religious institutions/establishment become corrupt over a much longer time period too, and eventually give rise to the loss of faith and crisis of civilization, so the cycles repeat). The fundamental reason is that earthly bureaucrats can not run a society efficiently without the help of religion: in a city like Detroit and Chicago, only 15% of murder cases are solved; so without some sort of god(s)/religion giving people an incentive (rational or not) to supervise themselves, it's quite impossible to maintain an orderly society after the entire society realizes that they can get away with murder 85% of the time.
Richard Dawkins famously said that religion is like a mental virus for a society; IMHO, a better analogy is that religion to a society is like Mitocondria to a cell: Mitocondria has its own DNA distinct from that of the cell's, so likely the result of an invasion/implantation at some point in the distant past (just like a virus), yet a high functioning cell can not survive without Mitocondria.
A day will come for believer of old, existing or brand new god of any type, to be dragged onto mental facility.
LOL! That too has happened previously: the guillotine was invented to speed up the chopping of heads belonging to Catholic priests and nuns, but it didn't take long before the machine started working on the necks of the revolutionaries. The French Revolution was officially atheistic, but it took very little time before the atheistic leaders realized that they needed religion to run the society (as neighbors started denouncing neighbors to death in hopes of looting the victim families): first the Church of Reason, then the Church of Supreme-Being (Robespire himself), with the Church of Supreme-Being chopping off the heads of the leaders of the Church of Reason (his former friends) quickly followed by the head of the Church of Supreme-Being being severed on the guillotine.
When a previously predominant traditional religion dies in a society/culture, what happens is crisis of civilization, usually characterized by high crime rate, personality cult and chaos, until the next predominant religious tradition can be established (of course, religious institutions/establishment become corrupt over a much longer time period too, and eventually give rise to the loss of faith and crisis of civilization, so the cycles repeat). The fundamental reason is that earthly bureaucrats can not run a society efficiently without the help of religion: in a city like Detroit and Chicago, only 15% of murder cases are solved; so without some sort of god(s)/religion giving people an incentive (rational or not) to supervise themselves, it's quite impossible to maintain an orderly society after the entire society realizes that they can get away with murder 85% of the time.
Richard Dawkins famously said that religion is like a mental virus for a society; IMHO, a better analogy is that religion to a society is like Mitocondria to a cell: Mitocondria has its own DNA distinct from that of the cell's, so likely the result of an invasion/implantation at some point in the distant past (just like a virus), yet a high functioning cell can not survive without Mitocondria.
42
marcus
2019 Apr 8, 6:26am
marcus
2019 Apr 8, 6:26am
I questioned religion a lot while I was a child (teen actually). Those type of quotes(OP above) definitely impacted my thinking about 45 years ago. I was a fan of Bertrand Russel.
I'm not religious now, and I know it's counter intuitive, but I think religion going away will continue to coincide with the downfall of civilization.
EBGuy says
Yep.
I'm not religious now, and I know it's counter intuitive, but I think religion going away will continue to coincide with the downfall of civilization.
EBGuy says
As an agnostic in terms of his religious commitments, in this excerpt Tom Holland nevertheless describes the way that the birth of Christianity has shaped much of what we value in Western society in terms of human rights, culture and rule of law.
Yep.
43
EBGuy
2019 Apr 8, 1:39pm
Blue says
Perhaps you didn't get the memo...
www.youtube.com/embed/iBSOTY1rTtg
No one can bring Atheist back to barn.
Perhaps you didn't get the memo...
www.youtube.com/embed/iBSOTY1rTtg
44
Shaman
2019 Apr 8, 2:07pm
Shaman
2019 Apr 8, 2:07pm
EBGuy says
Exactly, as JP says: “Life is pain, and pain without meaning is unendurable.” Therefore we require meaning to make life worth living, and make it more than just mere meaning, to make it an act of heroism. Otherwise we slide into nihilism and despair, with all the inevitable addictions to our coping drugs of choice.
This truth resounds deeply within people who think, and thinkers tend towards the siren song of atheism more than anyone.
Perhaps you didn't get the memo...
Exactly, as JP says: “Life is pain, and pain without meaning is unendurable.” Therefore we require meaning to make life worth living, and make it more than just mere meaning, to make it an act of heroism. Otherwise we slide into nihilism and despair, with all the inevitable addictions to our coping drugs of choice.
This truth resounds deeply within people who think, and thinkers tend towards the siren song of atheism more than anyone.
46
Bd6r
2019 Apr 8, 7:23pm
Bd6r
2019 Apr 8, 7:23pm
EBGuy says
Law is so-called Roman law in most Europe (and LA in USA). Culture - Christians appropriated Pagan holidays (Christmas etc). Human rights - that's Enlightenment.
I do not deny that Christian faith has had a lot of influence, but it is just one of many layers that forms European and American civilizations.
Christianity has shaped much of what we value in Western society in terms of human rights, culture and rule of law.
Law is so-called Roman law in most Europe (and LA in USA). Culture - Christians appropriated Pagan holidays (Christmas etc). Human rights - that's Enlightenment.
I do not deny that Christian faith has had a lot of influence, but it is just one of many layers that forms European and American civilizations.
47
Y
2019 Apr 9, 7:02am
Y
2019 Apr 9, 7:02am
All those benefits are also available to those believing in a godlike force that's yet to be defined by man.
Blue says
Blue says
The benefits of being an atheist are:
48
HeadSet
2019 Apr 9, 1:33pm
HeadSet
2019 Apr 9, 1:33pm
One very important attribute of Christianity which is usually overlooked by leftists is that Christians are "innoculated" against Islam.
Actually, that "inoculation" is from modern society, science, and medicine. The Christianity we have in the USA is very lightweight, very few believe traditional Christian points that God will take care of you like how does the Lilies of the Field, or that faith will heal a snake wound. Lightweight Christians would rather find jobs and earn money rather than wait for a Divinity to provide, and will see a doctor when sick. Lightweight Christianity is acceptable to people who who believe in Jesus "just in case," but will not go as far as to abstain from sex before marriage or give all their money to the poor. Churches in the USA are more like social clubs than cults.
The deep faithful, those that seem to have a genetic predisposition toward worship, are susceptible to change from Christianity into devout Muslims, Devil Worshipers, Marxists, or other cults.
Actually, that "inoculation" is from modern society, science, and medicine. The Christianity we have in the USA is very lightweight, very few believe traditional Christian points that God will take care of you like how does the Lilies of the Field, or that faith will heal a snake wound. Lightweight Christians would rather find jobs and earn money rather than wait for a Divinity to provide, and will see a doctor when sick. Lightweight Christianity is acceptable to people who who believe in Jesus "just in case," but will not go as far as to abstain from sex before marriage or give all their money to the poor. Churches in the USA are more like social clubs than cults.
The deep faithful, those that seem to have a genetic predisposition toward worship, are susceptible to change from Christianity into devout Muslims, Devil Worshipers, Marxists, or other cults.
49
Heraclitusstudent
2019 Apr 9, 3:44pm
Heraclitusstudent
2019 Apr 9, 3:44pm
Patrick says
It's becoming a fashion to claim religions has benefits even if it's not true .
That is: let's all believe something we know is not true - i.e. we don't really believe - because of the side effects of such beliefs.
If this ever worked, imagine what believing in the real reasons to act in a beneficial way will do for you.
That is, even if Christianity itself isn't scientifically true, it does have the objective benefit ...
It's becoming a fashion to claim religions has benefits even if it's not true .
That is: let's all believe something we know is not true - i.e. we don't really believe - because of the side effects of such beliefs.
If this ever worked, imagine what believing in the real reasons to act in a beneficial way will do for you.
50
Heraclitusstudent
2019 Apr 9, 3:48pm
Heraclitusstudent
2019 Apr 9, 3:48pm
HeadSet says
All cults are social clubs, first and foremost. Tribes.
Churches in the USA are more like social clubs than cults.
All cults are social clubs, first and foremost. Tribes.
51
marcus
2019 Apr 9, 9:44pm
marcus
2019 Apr 9, 9:44pm
HeadSet says
This Christianity you call lightweight is most of Christianity. Catholics, Lutheran, Episcopalians, Methodists, Presbyterians and all the other protestant offshoots.
What are the heavyweights ? Mormons ? Christian Scientists ? Baptists ? Perhaps the Greek Orthodox ?
Lightweight Christians
This Christianity you call lightweight is most of Christianity. Catholics, Lutheran, Episcopalians, Methodists, Presbyterians and all the other protestant offshoots.
What are the heavyweights ? Mormons ? Christian Scientists ? Baptists ? Perhaps the Greek Orthodox ?
52
Reality
2019 Apr 9, 10:04pm
Heraclitusstudent says
The shocking truth is that for the bottom 80% of the population, abiding by the law may not be beneficial to himself. In a city like Detroit and Chicago, only 15% of the murders are solved, so statistically speaking one can get away with murder 85% of the time. For us in the top 20% of the society, there are plenty reasons not to take that 15% risk of being caught. However, for the bottom 80% of the population, it's not clear at all robbery and murder is not a statistically winning strategy. Please reference Dosdoevsky's Crime and Punishment on how that math works for a typical over-educated man with little marketable skills. That is indeed a problem with societies that emphasize education over market. Your perspective is showing some of that. Higher education churning out "over-educated" with similar skills therefore none marketable is in fact a highly dangerous social condition.
Historically, there have been attempts to solve that problem: the government-God, with extremely harsh laws to reign in those rotten "calculating" population . . . but those tend not to last long either as the officialdom tends to become extremely corrupt within a couple generations and the harsh laws reaching capital punishment on numerous crimes eventually force people into rebellion as a person can only die once.
So far as we know, religion reconciling people to their existing social conditions and incentivize people to self-supervise, tends to be a far more effective tool for social stability than just about anything else. A religion built around the government bureaucrats' super-human ability to enforce law and justice is even less sustainable than religions built around supernatural beings.
It's becoming a fashion to claim religions has benefits even if it's not true .
That is: let's all believe something we know is not true - i.e. we don't really believe - because of the side effects of such beliefs.
If this ever worked, imagine what believing in the real reasons to act in a beneficial way will do for you.
The shocking truth is that for the bottom 80% of the population, abiding by the law may not be beneficial to himself. In a city like Detroit and Chicago, only 15% of the murders are solved, so statistically speaking one can get away with murder 85% of the time. For us in the top 20% of the society, there are plenty reasons not to take that 15% risk of being caught. However, for the bottom 80% of the population, it's not clear at all robbery and murder is not a statistically winning strategy. Please reference Dosdoevsky's Crime and Punishment on how that math works for a typical over-educated man with little marketable skills. That is indeed a problem with societies that emphasize education over market. Your perspective is showing some of that. Higher education churning out "over-educated" with similar skills therefore none marketable is in fact a highly dangerous social condition.
Historically, there have been attempts to solve that problem: the government-God, with extremely harsh laws to reign in those rotten "calculating" population . . . but those tend not to last long either as the officialdom tends to become extremely corrupt within a couple generations and the harsh laws reaching capital punishment on numerous crimes eventually force people into rebellion as a person can only die once.
So far as we know, religion reconciling people to their existing social conditions and incentivize people to self-supervise, tends to be a far more effective tool for social stability than just about anything else. A religion built around the government bureaucrats' super-human ability to enforce law and justice is even less sustainable than religions built around supernatural beings.
53
Heraclitusstudent
2019 Apr 9, 10:39pm
Heraclitusstudent
2019 Apr 9, 10:39pm
Reality says
Yeah: let's believe something we know is not true - or make other people believe it.
You're confusing so many things: the necessity of some level of tribalism: whether religious or nationalistic.
The organization of society top-down vs bottom-up.
The individual incentives: do you need to believe in God so as to not want to rob your neighbor? That's a specious argument. Most atheists do believe in being part of a larger community (tribe), being good people and helping others. No state required.
So far as we know, religion reconciling people to their existing social conditions and incentivize people to self-supervise, tends to be a far more effective tool for social stability than just about anything else.
Yeah: let's believe something we know is not true - or make other people believe it.
You're confusing so many things: the necessity of some level of tribalism: whether religious or nationalistic.
The organization of society top-down vs bottom-up.
The individual incentives: do you need to believe in God so as to not want to rob your neighbor? That's a specious argument. Most atheists do believe in being part of a larger community (tribe), being good people and helping others. No state required.
54
Reality
2019 Apr 9, 11:01pm
Heraclitusstudent says
How do you explain the less traditionally religious political Left's penchant for robbing their neighbors via "taxes" and transfers to themselves? The desire to rob neighbors is obviously there for the overwhelming majority of the population, only a matter of how they justify their robbery and what kind of justice mechanism that they fear might restrain them: The default religion of the Government-God just happens to be a more costly one than most religions involving super-natural gods. Most atheists are in reality worshipers of the Government-God religion.
Let me put it this way: if you owe two people money, one would break your legs if you don't pay back, whereas the other is nice and wouldn't threaten you; whom would you pay back first? Most people would pay the former before the latter. Most people are simply not good people, as they clearly would facilitate evil due to fear of evil. In the absence of a more traditional religion, people would fall under the spell of the default Government-God due to this fear and servileness. "Being good" is a luxury that only people who can afford more than their own (minimum) expectations can afford.
do you need to believe in God so as to not want to rob your neighbor? That's a specious argument. Most atheists do believe in being part of a larger community (tribe), being good people and helping others. No state required.
How do you explain the less traditionally religious political Left's penchant for robbing their neighbors via "taxes" and transfers to themselves? The desire to rob neighbors is obviously there for the overwhelming majority of the population, only a matter of how they justify their robbery and what kind of justice mechanism that they fear might restrain them: The default religion of the Government-God just happens to be a more costly one than most religions involving super-natural gods. Most atheists are in reality worshipers of the Government-God religion.
Let me put it this way: if you owe two people money, one would break your legs if you don't pay back, whereas the other is nice and wouldn't threaten you; whom would you pay back first? Most people would pay the former before the latter. Most people are simply not good people, as they clearly would facilitate evil due to fear of evil. In the absence of a more traditional religion, people would fall under the spell of the default Government-God due to this fear and servileness. "Being good" is a luxury that only people who can afford more than their own (minimum) expectations can afford.
55
HeadSet
2019 Apr 10, 8:35am
HeadSet
2019 Apr 10, 8:35am
marcus says
Yes, I believe we agree here.
The Mormons I know seemed to be heavyweights, as they are very strict in beliefs, no sex before marriage at all, no drugs, strong accommodation to Mormon poor, absolute belief in some real tall tales, and patronizing Mormon firms and investments whenever available. Other heavyweights would be vow of poverty Franciscans, and Orthodox Christians.
HeadSet saysLightweight Christians
This Christianity you call lightweight is most of Christianity. Catholics, Lutheran, Episcopalians, Methodists, Presbyterians and all the other protestant offshoots.
What are the heavyweights ? Mormons ? Christian Scientists ? Baptists ? Perhaps the Greek Orthodox ?
Yes, I believe we agree here.
The Mormons I know seemed to be heavyweights, as they are very strict in beliefs, no sex before marriage at all, no drugs, strong accommodation to Mormon poor, absolute belief in some real tall tales, and patronizing Mormon firms and investments whenever available. Other heavyweights would be vow of poverty Franciscans, and Orthodox Christians.
56
EBGuy
2019 Apr 10, 1:24pm
Heraclitusstudent says
This is taken from a Jonathan Haidt TED talk: The moral roots of liberals and conservatives (see 12:00 mark in video).
Altruistic punishment in humans by Ernst Fehr & Simon Gachter published in Nature.
From the abstract: We show that cooperation flourishes if altruistic punishment is possible, and breaks down if it is ruled out.
The individual incentives: do you need to believe in God so as to not want to rob your neighbor? That's a specious argument. Most atheists do believe in being part of a larger community (tribe), being good people and helping others. No state required.
This is taken from a Jonathan Haidt TED talk: The moral roots of liberals and conservatives (see 12:00 mark in video).
Altruistic punishment in humans by Ernst Fehr & Simon Gachter published in Nature.
From the abstract: We show that cooperation flourishes if altruistic punishment is possible, and breaks down if it is ruled out.
57
Heraclitusstudent
2019 Apr 10, 9:52pm
Heraclitusstudent
2019 Apr 10, 9:52pm
Reality says
How do you explain atheist libertarians?
There is a giant false dichotomy circling in the head of conservatives: if we lose religion, the statism will automatically take its place, probably in the form of soviet style collectivism.
How about no bullshit?
How do you explain the less traditionally religious political Left's penchant for robbing their neighbors via "taxes"
How do you explain atheist libertarians?
There is a giant false dichotomy circling in the head of conservatives: if we lose religion, the statism will automatically take its place, probably in the form of soviet style collectivism.
How about no bullshit?
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On ego
"How much vanity must be concealed—not too effectively at that—in order to pretend that one is the personal object of a divine plan?" — Christopher Hitchens, God is not Great: How Religion Poisons Everything
Here comes logic
"Monotheism explains order, but is mystified by evil. Dualism explains evil, but is puzzled by order. There is one logical way of solving the riddle: To argue that there is a single omnipotent God who created the entire universe—and He's evil. But nobody in history has had the stomach for such a belief." — Yuval Noah Harari, Sapiens: A Brief History of Humankind
The difference is often language
"In America, belief in the unreal seems to be very fungible. Individuals don't so much abandon religious fantasy in favor of reason as find different fantasies that better suit their particular excitement and credulity quotients." — Kurt Andersen, Fantasyland: How America Went Haywire
A Buddhist approach
"Mindfulness accepts as its focus of inquiry whatever arises in one's field of awareness, no matter how disturbing or painful it might be. One neither seeks nor expects to find some greater truth lurking behind the veil of appearances. What appears and how you respond to it: that alone is what matters." — Stephen Batchelor, Confessions of a Buddhist Atheist
Enter Darwin
"Comprehension, far from being a Godlike talent from which all design must flow, is an emergent effect of systems of uncomprehending competence: natural selection on the one hand, and mindless computation on the other." — Daniel Dennett, From Bacteria to Bach and Back: The Evolution of Minds
The physical can be spiritual
"Evolution simply happened—foresightless, by chance, without goal. There is nobody to despise or rebel against—not even ourselves. And this is not some bizarre form of neurophilosophical nihilism but rather a point of intellectual honesty and great spiritual depth." — Thomas Metzinger, The Ego Tunnel: The Science of the Mind and the Myth of the Self
Superego
"Supernatural thinking is simply the natural consequence of failing to match our intuitions with the true reality of the world." — Bruce M. Hood, The Science of Superstition: How the Developing Brain Creates Supernatural Beliefs
Out of body is still in the body
"Out-of-body flight "really happens," then—it is a real physical event, but only in the patient's brain and, as a result, in his subjective experience. The out-of-body state is, by and large, an exacerbated form of the dizziness that we all experience when our vision disagrees with our vestibular system, as on a rocking boat." — Stanislas Dehaene, Consciousness and the Brain: Deciphering How the Brain Codes Our Thoughts
Randomness produces beautiful (or efficient) results
"If you let something tumble long enough, it comes out almost perfect. Such is the power of random collisions and patience, and that constitutes the sum total of nature's intelligence. All the rough edges, the flaws, the things that don't work are systematically dispatched by natural selection. What remains and carries on into the next generation and the next after that and so on are the advantageous aspects, what does work what makes survival easier. And survival is the fuel of natural selection." — Rodolfo R. Llinas, I of the vortex: From Neurons to Self
"Everything happens for a reason"
"A long line of research in cognitive science has documented that people make causal attributions about events as a means of maintaining personal control. It is the feeling that things are spinning out of control that motivates the human brain to find a pattern in events and try to predict what is going to happen next. The left-brain interpreter thus will be activated whenever the individual senses a lack of control. Superstitions and conspiracy theories can be seen as the societal consequences of the interpreter's drive to find a causal explanation for events that are seemingly out of control." — Ronald T. Kellogg, The Making of the Mind: The Nueroscience of Human Nature
https://bigthink.com/culture-religion/10-atheist-quotes-that-make-you-question-religion?rebelltitem=3#rebelltitem3
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