patrick.net

SunnyvaleCA says

AOC does the same kind of trolling, too. Her Green New Deal and "12 years to armageddon" made the right go just as crazy/stupid as Trump does with the left.

I see your point, but to me her role is to give voice to the crazy. She really believes this stuff.

The Alt View is that she was put there by Trump as an Agent Provocateur (which seems a stretch to me).

That being said, I dedicate this next number to the Democrats of 2019:

www.youtube.com/embed/vy1V5LHXWbg

SunnyvaleCA says

Honestly, it wouldn't be hard to implement.

Hell, just make the weighted votes you get based on the figures you pay the IRS. 1 vote for $0-9 in taxes. 2 votes for $10-99 in taxes. 3 votes for $100-999. So on, and so on. 99% of the population would likely have 5 weighted votes or less (5 figures in taxes paid). And there aren't enough people paying 6 figures plus to move the needle much on a nationwide election.

The democrats would never go for this though. It would statistically wipe out 40-50% of their voters or at least the value of their vote. Although maybe they'd change the platform to benefit the majority of people and not a lazy minority that are easy to get votes from.

WookieMan says

SunnyvaleCA says

Honestly, it wouldn't be hard to implement.

Hell, just make the weighted votes you get based on the figures you pay the IRS. 1 vote for $0-9 in taxes. 2 votes for $10-99 in taxes. 3 votes for $100-999. So on, and so on. 99% of the population would likely have 5 weighted votes or less (5 figures in taxes paid). And there aren't enough people paying 6 figures plus to move the needle much on a nationwide election.

The democrats would never go for this though. It would statistically wipe out 40-50% of their voters or at least the value of their vote. Although maybe they'd change the platform to benefit the majority of people and not a lazy minority that are easy to get votes from.

Logarithmic weighting is a great idea! Plus, it's always fun to befuddle the math-challenged. :-)
In addition to wiping out most of the democratic vote, it would also favor people who pay the most taxes; those people would be most likely to try to reduce government spending and government taxation. It would really hold the government in check.

SunnyvaleCA says

AOC does the same kind of trolling, too. Her Green New Deal and "12 years to armageddon" made the right go just as crazy/stupid as Trump does with the left

I hear you. There's a difference though between outrageous trolling and flat out provable lies.

Saying something along the lines of "sending them back to their country" or whatnot is clearly over the top and meant to outrage the other side of the argument. He's playing on the racist, dictator narrative that the left created themselves out of thin air. It's the classic troll definition. The fact remains that Trump actually has the legal authority to send them back. It's not racism. He takes a factual statement and words it to upset his adversaries.

Saying there's 12 years left if we don't enact legislation to fix an unfixable problem is just outright retardation. We don't rule the world. She basically said the sky is neon green even though 100% of people know it's blue. That does deserve a response because left or right leaning, there are complete fucking idiots out there that will buy what she said.

Trolling generally, for the most part to be successful, still has to be based in reality and a potentially verifiable fact. What AOC said has never been written, spoken, implied or anything, ever. I get your line of thought, but in this specific case, I think the right handled it well to react.

I'm still shocked that a 30 something house rep is even getting this much press. Given the press bias, it's mostly coming from left leaning sources putting her out there. It's almost like they're trolling themselves.

WookieMan says

By using the word outrageous to describe what's being said, yes, no reaction would be better than what is going on.

WookieMan says

he's outsmarting people that think they're smart.

Well obviously cultists will always defend what he says on an emotional basis without regard for the semantic.

A lot of the semantic is just varying insults. I don't see what's smart about causing outrage by insulting people.

The guy has reduced the political discourse of this country to insults and outrage on both sides.
What is smart about that? Nothing. Unless you're a nihilist that sees him as a giant wrecking ball that is needed in Washington.

Insults are just not an appropriate political discourse, especially when you're POTUS.

If the left overreaches, certainly there is something smarter to do than insulting people.

But obviously this assumes you're dealing with people that are willing to evaluate issues rationally and dampen their emotions.

I heart President Trump big time and totally understand him.

Pissing people off with simple words is one of life’s great joys. I can only hope to achieve President Trumps troll level. And at this point it seems he is the greatest troll on earth.

Or, we can simply go back to a time period before.

For example, in the 1950s, Reader's Digest reported Teachers listed the worst problems in school being chewing gum, not washing hands before lunch, and passing notes.

Maybe we should re-institute Mr. Bungle at the expense of "The Earth is dying" and "Cultural Awareness" time.

In would certainly help if kids all received the same messages:

www.youtube.com/embed/hkf3cNkTwgc

All one has to do is hit the rage buttons of lefties over and over and they forget all about their history of supporting worker rights and high wages.

They make themselves weak and useless in their rages about race, feminism, gays, illegals, etc.

To add insult to their self-injury, Trump has done a much better job providing relief to suffering US workers than any Democratic president in decades.

:
When someone votes for the right guy for President, and the guy does a great job, living up in any reasonable way to what he said he would do, you will find that the people that voted for him will be deeply proud and thus they can be very humble about it, and certainly won't need to make absurd dishonest assertions and about his success.

Patrick says

Trump has done a much better job providing relief to suffering US workers than any Democratic president in decades

I would love to hear you elaborate on this. Can you ?

I agree that Trump is a troll, but the MSM takes the bait every time. I'd even argue that the MSM is the bigger troll because they twist Trump's words to come up with ridiculous interpretations, creating a much bigger troll.

WookieMan says

"sending them back to their country" or whatnot is clearly over the top and meant to outrage the other side of the argument. He's playing on the racist, dictator narrative that the left created themselves out of thin air. It's the classic troll definition. The fact remains that Trump actually has the legal authority to send them back. It's not racism. He takes a factual statement and words it to upset his adversaries.

It's not "or whatnot" — words matter. You can't complain about words that weren't actually spoken that imply things that weren't actually impled. Yes, Trump does some trolling. But the real troll is the MSM.

fact remains that Trump actually has the legal authority to send them back

They are US citizens, so... no.

Trump used the word "return," which implies the ladies should do the action on their own not be forced out. It seems like the MSM is Trolling again. Trump wanted these people to try their ideas out on the countries from which their ancestors and culture came (and thus from which their ideas were born); once those countries are as successful as the USA and the majority of USA citizens come to want that kind of lifestyle, then Trump would be more willing to take their ideas seriously for implementing within the USA.

marcus says

:
When someone votes for the right guy for President, and the guy does a great job, living up in any reasonable way to what he said he would do, you will find that the people that voted for him will be deeply proud and thus they can be very humble about it, and certainly won't need to make absurd dishonest assertions and about his success.

Patrick says

Trump has done a much better job providing relief to suffering US workers than any Democratic president in decades

I would love to hear you elaborate on this. Can you ?

Time to stop being obtuse on purpose. The economy is on fire since Trump and UE at record lows. Plus the gains are massive for low paying jobs due to removal of illegal immigrant competition and bringing back lower end Manufacturing.

marcus says

Patrick says

Trump has done a much better job providing relief to suffering US workers than any Democratic president in decades

I would love to hear you elaborate on this. Can you ?

@marcus Sure, with pleasure:

Trump cut taxes for most workers (as well as on the rich).
Trump is trying to stem the flood of illegals who are being imported specifically to drive down wages.
Trump policies helped raise wages for the 99% rise at record rates. See https://patrick.net/post/1326188/2019-08-01-trump-benefitting-the-99-yugely
Trump policies helped provide record low unemployment for blacks.
Trump helped bring about a massive increase in US manufacturing jobs https://unemploymentdata.com/employment/manufacturing-jobs-soar-under-trump/

Shall I go on?

Patrick says

Shall I go on?

I don't see anything that changed or even hardly touched typical worker. They are going to be paying in one way or another for the YUUGE growth time annual deficits, caused in part by tax cuts that the typical worker got a few hundred dollars from (most went to wealthy and corporations)

Manufacturing ? You still don't get it. That and other employment trends are provably a continuation of trends in place since 2011, and it's questionable whether they are worth the huge growth time deficits. WE might have been better off to have a recession. But no, that's being put off for when the democrats take over (by using massive deficit spending).

All his brilliant tariffs strategy, and look manufacturing jobs aren't even back to levels of 2007. But prices are higher which of course in combination with low unemployment causes pay increases at the bottom.




Not an impressive slope. Same as before basically.

Trump was supposedly going to:

1) Reduce the deficit

2) Fix healthcare

3) do a lot of needed work on infrastructure

4) Cause creation of a lot of decent paying jobs

Shall I go on ?

On fire ?

:
Running trillion dollar deficits anyone would have this continuation. There is some kind of "multiplier effect: for government spending.

The multiplier effect applies to both tax reductions and increases in spending, both of which the republicans love to do, even more so Trump.

But it's not like it doesn't have to be paid for somehow.

By the way, Russian Collusion was dropped like a hot potato after Mueller looked like a dotard at the last hearing.

So we pivoted back to White Supremacy.

WookieMan says

HEYYOU says

@ 5

NO!
And neither should scum of the earth Republicans that get handouts & subsidies.
REAL MAN HEYYOU never got a dime of tax dollars. Only losers do.

Notice how I've learned to be a narrsicist ,like Trump & his ilk, The difference between them & me is they are piles of deplorable shit.

It's a harsh view, but I don't think anyone should be able to vote if they're not productive and at least paying some federal taxes.

It's an extreme view, but I don't think you should be allowed to vote how to spend other peoples money, mine included. I'm not some millionaire, but pay 5 figures annually in federal taxes. Why should some white trash guy in Alabama or ghetto ass black guy in Chicago have ANY say over the money I'm forced to pay?

If you pay zero and receive any non-healthcare related (or SS) handout, just be happy. You could be dead o...

This is a very Romney way of looking at the country. Lowly peons in the military don't pay taxes because they don't get paid very much, but they pay in blood for their country. I think they deserve a vote.

SunnyvaleCA says

I'll say it again: People's votes should count proportionally to how much they pay taxes, with people paying zero or negative taxes getting a weight of 0.

More power to the rich, assuming they actually pay taxes?

LastMan says

SunnyvaleCA says

I'll say it again: People's votes should count proportionally to how much they pay taxes, with people paying zero or negative taxes getting a weight of 0.

More power to the rich, assuming they actually pay taxes?

Well, that's just it. To the extent that "the rich" shield themselves from taxes, they'll also have their vote counted less. Wookieman, above, suggested you get a vote proportional to ceiling(log10(taxes)). i.e.: however many digits was in your tax bill, that's how your vote is weighted. So, someone paying $50,000 (5 digits) in taxes would have a vote weighted 5x and a person paying $15 (2 digits) in taxes would have a 2x weighted vote.

I think that this would put a major damper on increasing taxes (and hopefully on increasing spending), as the people paying the most taxes would have the highest vote power and also be most likely to want to reduce taxes. Sure, they would change tax law to favor themselves at the expense of others. But then the next time around, those "others" would have the upper hand. Hopefully, an equilibrium would be reached.

SunnyvaleCA says

LastMan says

SunnyvaleCA says

I'll say it again: People's votes should count proportionally to how much they pay taxes, with people paying zero or negative taxes getting a weight of 0.

More power to the rich, assuming they actually pay taxes?

Well, that's just it. To the extent that "the rich" shield themselves from taxes, they'll also have their vote counted less. Wookieman, above, suggested you get a vote proportional to ceiling(log10(taxes)). i.e.: however many digits was in your tax bill, that's how your vote is weighted. So, someone paying 50,000 in taxes would have a vote counted at 5x (5 digits) and a person paying $15 in taxes would have a 2x vote.

I think that this would put a major damper on increasing taxes (and hopefully on increasing spending), as the people paying the most taxes would...

We have about $23 trillion in Federal debt. That amount is just as much the welfare Ho's as it is the rich defense contractor's. I think she should get a vote because, arguably, she doesn't benefit from the spending as much as say a defense contractor, who has to pay income tax. Even more the banker who loaned the money, who now gets interest income from the debt that yes he now has to pay federal income tax on the earnings.

Heraclitusstudent says

I don't see what's smart about causing outrage by insulting people.

I don't personally like the tactic or think it's good for the country with regards to the way we interact with each other. But at the same time, he's shown a lot of people asses on both sides of the aisle by doing it. In the end I'm not sure if what Trump is doing is any worse than the previous status quo of outright lying and not ever getting called out for it. And yes, Trump has lied.

I don't differentiate between lying and insults really is my main point to what you're saying. They're both bad personality traits. So I guess that's why I see less of a problem with it. If I was having a rough day and looked like shit I'd rather have someone just tell me instead of lie to my face. Basically tell me I look great and then tell every else "that guy looks like shit" in private.

SunnyvaleCA says

They are US citizens, so... no.

I was referencing the illegal immigration situation, not the recent "squad" comment.

mell says

Time to stop being obtuse on purpose.

He does this a lot. I believe he’s trolling when he does that. He can’t possibly be that stupid.

I think government workers shouldn’t get a vote. You wanna work for the people? You shouldn’t also get to be your own boss and vote for your own pay raises.

Quigley says

I think government workers shouldn’t get a vote. You wanna work for the people? You shouldn’t also get to be your own boss and vote for your own pay raises.

Sounds like an invitation to have breakfast with navy Seals. They may disagree with that point of view.

Misc says

Quigley says

I think government workers shouldn’t get a vote. You wanna work for the people? You shouldn’t also get to be your own boss and vote for your own pay raises.

Sounds like an invitation to have breakfast with navy Seals. They may disagree with that point of view.

Everyone will disagree with a weighted vote. Doesn’t make it wrong. It’s basic logic. Don’t care about seals or whales. You’re more likely to get killed in Chicago versus doing a tour anywhere outside the US right now. This is statistically true.

You’re clearly military. Congrats. No one actually cares and you know it. We’re in the most peaceful time in world history if you account for war deaths per capita. But hey, the seals.

I don't like a weighted vote, also, we can barely keep illegals from voting as it is, it would be hard to calculate.

Any skin in the game is enough.

If you made in excess of $15,000 in wages in any 2 of the past 4 years, you vote. You bring in your W2 and or tax return to register to vote, renewal every 4 years. If you didn't, you don't, unless you are military and/or over 65 years old.

What we should do is go back to having Senators selected by the State Legislature, which balances out Federal power. States will be sure to nominate Senators that fight against unfunded mandates in budgets. "Oh, the House wants to tie Federal Grants for State Highway Funding to Drinking Age? BOOM! Rejected! Back to the House!"

Heraclitusstudent says

WineHorror1 says

Do you, yes or no, think taxpayers should be forced to pay for ANYTHING given to illegal aliens?

Humm... Mostly I don't.
Doesn't mean Trump is not a troll.

Don't you really mean his detractors are the trolls since that's the gameplan they had the day he was elected? He's just fighting back. If you cry all day long, how do you find the will to live? It's quite remarkable.

What we should do is go back to having Senators selected by the State Legislature

+1000. The House of Representatives represents the voters, the Senate represents the States.

HonkpilledMaster says

I don't like a weighted vote, also, we can barely keep illegals from voting as it is, it would be hard to calculate.

HonkpilledMaster says

You bring in your W2 and or tax return to register to vote, renewal every 4 years.

You solved the problem in your own post ;)

I like the idea of a weighted vote because it would give more power to the most people that are actually providing for everyone, while not giving too much power to the super rich. If you can't provide for your family and need welfare, I don't want you influencing anything. If you're super rich paying $100,001 in federal taxes, you only get one more vote than the guy paying $10,001 in taxes.

It will never happen, but I'd like to think it would result in better elected officials. As it stands, the upper income folks have way too much influence regardless of party affiliation. This would likely eliminate the big donor factor overnight given their weighted vote is statistically limited for an election.

It's tough to argue with someone who thinks that Kim Kardashian is so superior to him that she deserves more votes than him come election time.

Misc says

It's tough to argue with someone who thinks that Kim Kardashian is so superior to him that she deserves more votes than him come election time.

There's really no argument here. Kardashian statistically adds more to the economy monetarily than I do. Has zilch to do with superiority. Realistically she'd only get 1 or 2 more weighted votes compared to my 5 even though she's paying far more taxes, hiring people, buying more shit than I could ever dream of.

You think trailer trash Tony on food stamps and not paying any federal taxes should have an equal vote to myself or yes, even a Kardashian? (Side note - this is by no means an endorsement of what she does and how it influences our society)

Yes, everyone deserves a vote and it's not a perfect idea. Those able bodied people getting handouts are ALWAYS going to vote for someone that will keep the status quo or promise to give them more. This is a large chunk of the population. As horrendous as Kardashian and many other media types are, they are actually working and producing something regardless of how awful it is. And the fact is, it levels the playing field and gives the middle class (most Americans) more say in our politicians who are currently just bought with truckloads of money.

And to wrap it up..... it will NEVER happen anyway, so it's not really an argument going on, just a thought on what could make the voting system better. There's probably some hole in my logic that I didn't even think of.

So Trump doesn't only troll the media. I could understand if this was a "media strategy".
However he trolls other countries, like Danemark, insulting its head of state.
Also insults to other US politicians are now common.
Why have a discussion when you can trade insults? That's always a great way to work with people.
This guy throws tantrums like a 4 years old.

Heraclitusstudent says

Why have a discussion when you can trade insults? That's always a great way to work with people.
This guy throws tantrums like a 4 years old.

I don't understand his plan with Greenland. That one surely looks stupid at this point with the way he handled it. It's not some small undertaking to have a visiting foreign dignitary, let alone the POTUS and then bail 2 weeks before the the trip over something that was highly unlikely to ever happen anyway (purchasing Greenland).

Even in real estate, his supposed profession, pissing off the seller before meaningful talks is rather stupid. Yes the US has leverage with printed cash, but that's all we got if Trump actually wants to purchase Greenland. Denmark could stop NATO payments tomorrow and would be as safe as they were yesterday. It was really an odd move and I'd be interested to see someone come up with what his strategy actually was. Any yes I understand the strategic value of Greenland and also the potential resource value of Greenland. Doesn't mean it will just be ours because Trump wants it.

However, the Danish PM wasn't very nice. "Big Countries don't buy small countries anymore". That was kinda condescending.

Trump is the remedy for 8 years of bowing and scraping and apologies by Obama. It's simply getting back to even steven not to take any disrespectful crap. Even from the Danes.

Greenland is a Danish protectorate, not a country. There has been talk of Denmark getting out of being responsible for Greenland since the end of the Cold War (actually, before).

Harry Truman also offered to buy Greenland. Is #HaberdasherManBad?