patrick.net

Read the entire chapter of Matthew 24 and you'll see, very clearly, that the so called "rapture" takes place AFTER the tribulation. A long time ago, I asked a Pastor that taught the pre-trib theory about that. Amazingly, he agreed with me. But then he said something that I'll never forget: "You have to understand that Matthew 24, as well as much of the New Testament is written to and for the Jews. This passage is talking to them, because they will be here during the tribulation." That is pure, 100% Dispensationalism bunk. The only way the Bible teaches a pre-trib rapture, along with a 7 year tribulation, is to FORCE interpretations upon passages that are taken out of context.

Here is a small book that I highly recommend to any that are interested in this subject. Covers historically how this relatively new doctrine came into being, which, IMO, is quite fascinating. It's a free PDF download, or, you can read while online:

The
Rapture
Of the Saints
_____________________________________________________________________________
BY DUNCAN McDOUGALL

https://emahiser.christogenea.org/Recommended/The%20Rapture%20Of%20The%20Saints.pdf

ABOUT THE AUTHOR
REV. DUNCAN MCDOUGALL,. M.A.
One of Scotland's well-known Gaelic scholars, the Reverend Duncan McDougall graduated at
Edinburgh University in Latin, Greek, Hebrew and Gaelic, taking Gaelic medals, Blackie Prize
and MacPherson Scholarship (twice). After leaving college he was Examiner in Hebrew for
eleven years to the Free Church College, Edinburg, in which he had taken his theological
course. Having been posted to Holland in the First World War, Mr. McDougall had acquired a
working knowledge of Dutch, and in expectation of a mission appointment in South America,
which, however, did not materialize, he set himself to acquire a working knowledge of Spanish.
He was therefore a linguist of very considerable repute.
A devout Christian, Mr. McDougall was ordained to the Ministry of the Free Church of Scotland,
a denomination which has long been known for its firm adherence to the teaching of the Holy
Scriptures and its repudiation of modernistic and higher critical views. For six years he was
Lecturer in Christian Evidences to the Vancouver Bible School, Vancouver, British Columbia,
Canada. Finally returning to Scotland, he was appointed Minister of the Free Church in
Dundoon, a post which he held until his retirement.

RayAmerica says

"You have to understand that Matthew 24, as well as much of the New Testament is written to and for the Jews.

Before Christ there were now Jews, just Christians. Judaism sprang up as a direct result opposition to Christ. The Zionist propaganda around the Bible entrenched in American Christianity.

NuttBoxer says

There is no clear interpretation that says all Christians will be lifted up to heaven before some great tribulation occurs. Recently read a book on Revelations that states most of what is written already took place. Not sure I 100% agree with it as I think there is some prophecy in the book yet to be fulfilled, but majority made a lot of sense.

God does not guarantee you a life free of suffering and hardship, or that He'll whisk you away before the bad stuff happens.

@nuttboxer
I shared your view on this until very recently, when a close friend pointed some things out to me. One was the above texts that PeopleUnited posted. The other was a demonstration of power. Jesus, he explained, was not only a sacrifice to atone sin. He was also the greatest EXAMPLE of a fully functioning Christian on earth. A couple of points:
1)mankind is given the Earth to be our sandbox. It is not safe, and our bodies are not durable. On our own power we eventually perish, or are slain by other people.
2)God has given Authority to those who become Sons and Daughters. This is like the parable of the Prodigal Son. Even as we turn away to pursue our own path away from God, we have only to repent to be entered back into His Authority and family.
3)Whatever we command on this earth, under the power of His Authority, as long as it does not violate His will, can be granted if we have the requisite ability to believe. That faith as a mustard seed is the key. It’s the key to real awesome undeniable power.

Now we get to the Rapture. If God left Christians who are walking in Authority on this earth, they could undo the tribulation of men with their prayers. That’s one reason why they must be removed. The other is Divine Justice. Every single God-caused disaster was preluded by warnings and even divine action to remove God’s followers from the situation. It’s a pattern. The story of Lot, referenced by Jesus in Luke (above) is a great example. It also points to a condition that we are now meeting, where the hearts of men are consumed with the desire to violate and corrupt the innocent.
Reread that story and ask for wisdom.

Finally, the purpose of the Tribulation is to offer a second chance at Salvation to those who didn’t get Raptured. It’s a much poorer deal, and if successful you will be most likely martyred. “These are they who came out of great Tribulation. And they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.”
This is the understanding I currently have.

Why don't any of you question the amazing coincidence that you happened to be born into the One True Religion?

Why do you never question this?

Hindus are the same, Muslims are the same, Jews and the same, everybody is the same. You never question what you're born into. Even if your parents don't share the exact same religion, you have the religion of the culture, roughly, of what you were born into. Why do you never question this amazing coincidence that you were born into the right one?

If there is a God, it's innate within all of us, and everything else, that's a perversion of it. Either that, or there is no god. Depends on a definition, what is god? That which created everything? That exists, for certain, but science is the attempt to understand this and investigation and thinking, contradicts all religious dogma. Bruno was burned at the stake for believing stars were suns like our own.

Investigation and questioning, I'd argue this is holy. Our conflicts, all conflicts, are from misunderstanding of axioms and distortions of reasoning and we are distorted by incorrect axioms and incorrect reasoning. Doesn't matter if your religion is correct or now, people's only difference, is a difference of understanding, and that stems from ignorance.

This is my main objection to Christianity, Islam, and Judaism - that our supposed ancestor did the great sin - of eating from the Tree of Knowledge. Knowledge isn't evil, and neither is ignorance, but knowledge will quell conflicts. Ignorance never will. Perhaps total ignorance might. I am cursed with a good memory, and I remember what I once was, before I could speak. No conflicts in that childish state of mind.

Before the rapture happens, buy puts on everything and give your atheist friend the brokerage account login info.

Shaman says

Finally, the purpose of the Tribulation is to offer a second chance at Salvation to those who didn’t get Raptured.

Did you hear that from some 'rapture preacher' or can you refer me to a very clear Bible verse or passage in order to back up that claim?

Shaman says

1)mankind is given the Earth to be our sandbox. It is not safe, and our bodies are not durable. On our own power we eventually perish, or are slain by other people.

Slight correction here. The wages of sin is death. Without that first sin, I'm not sure death would have existed. Thinking specifically of Enoch.

Shaman says

3)Whatever we command on this earth, under the power of His Authority, as long as it does not violate His will, can be granted if we have the requisite ability to believe. That faith as a mustard seed is the key. It’s the key to real awesome undeniable power.

Belief, i.e. blind trust, and faith are often mistaken. Faith is acting based on the knowledge of who God is. The greater the knowledge, the greater the faith, and power.

Shaman says

they could undo the tribulation of men with their prayers.

This contradicts your statement about aligning with God's will. If He pre-ordained the rapture, it cannot be prayed away.

Shaman says

Finally, the purpose of the Tribulation is to offer a second chance at Salvation to those who didn’t get Raptured.

I see nothing to support this. It's judgement for sin. We all have a chance now. And we HAVE the Scriptures. What about the people in the OT who were born before Jesus? Seems kind of unfair right? Bottom line, God doesn't owe us anything, we owe Him. And if I weren't saved, I wouldn't wait for some second chance I may never live to see.

If anything the whole of Revelation speaks to God's justice, His expectations of us, and the consequences of defying Him.

richwicks says

Why don't any of you question the amazing coincidence that you happened to be born into the One True Religion?

Why do you never question this?

Because it's a lie. I wasn't born into shit except the sins of my fathers. The only difference between me and anyone else is I knew I needed the free gift of salvation, and I accepted it. So what!?

If Jesus lived the perfect life, if Jesus died for me, if Jesus defeated death and rose again, what do I have to do with any of that? I wasn't there, I didn't do shit to help. Next time someone gives you a Christmas present, are you gonna tell him all the ways you earned that gift? Or are you going to accept it and say thank you, knowing you had nothing to do with it?

No one's walking up stairs on their knees anymore man, salvation is free. Jesus died for all, Hindu, Jew, Satanist, Catholic, Nazi, NeoCon, pattnetter, even @richwicks. He died for you, and nothing you can say or do will ever change that.

“Why don't any of you question the amazing coincidence that you happened to be born into the One True Religion?”

Power is always the true test.
If your god can do nothing for you, their devoted follower, then they aren’t worth following.
Elijah called down fire to consume the sacrifice in a religious “duel” of sorts between his faith in Yahweh and the priests of Ba’al. The priests could do nothing.

That power still exists for the using

NuttBoxer says

richwicks says

Why don't any of you question the amazing coincidence that you happened to be born into the One True Religion?

Why do you never question this?

Because it's a lie. I wasn't born into shit except the sins of my fathers.

No, you weren't. How can you be responsible for the transgressions of your parents?

You couldn't stop it, you had nothing to do with it, but you think you are responsible for it. This is crazy.

NuttBoxer says

No one's walking up stairs on their knees anymore man, salvation is free. Jesus died for all, Hindu, Jew, Satanist, Catholic, Nazi, NeoCon, pattnetter, even richwicks. He died for you, and nothing you can say or do will ever change that.

I actually truly, admire your faith, but I cannot participate in it.

I simply cannot.

IF there is a god, it's innate in all of us, all creatures, every living thing. Something created us for certain, but we don't know if it has intelligence or will.

Why does an animal show you affection and love? Consider that. You care for it, you protect it, you spend time with it. This is true for any animal you care for. Dog, cat, horse, cow, goat, sheep, anything. There is some fundamental force but I don't believe it's Christianity that explains it. I though it might be the concept of ahimsa that explained it, but it's even more fundamental than that.

I don't abhor your concept of god, I just think it's incomplete.

RayAmerica says

Shaman says

Finally, the purpose of the Tribulation is to offer a second chance at Salvation to those who didn’t get Raptured.

Did you hear that from some 'rapture preacher' or can you refer me to a very clear Bible verse or passage in order to back up that claim?

Search for yourself. It would take a lot to explain my reasoning, but I did quote the relevant verse above. It makes sense to me that a second chance is offered. Read up and see what you can find.

Shaman says

It makes sense to me that a second chance is offered. Read up and see what you can find.

With all due respect, and I really mean that, there is no such thing as a second chance that is mentioned anywhere in the Bible.

Please consider taking the time to read the free PDF book that I posted above "The Rapture of the Saints." If you do, I guarantee you are going to be surprised to learn the history of the Pre-Trib rapture doctrine, which only came into existence in the 1850's, literally trashing over 18 centuries of orthodox Christian doctrine.

NuttBoxer says

RayAmerica says

"You have to understand that Matthew 24, as well as much of the New Testament is written to and for the Jews.

Just a clarification; I did not say that, I was quoting what a "rapture preacher" said to me during a long ago conversation. His statement above revealed his hyper-dispensationalist viewpoint.

Dispensationalism was invented by a man by the name of John Nelson Darby (England) in the 1840's (as I recall). His system was immediately, and widely, rejected, particularly in England and Europe. However, Cyrus Scofield, a devout follower of Darby, wrote and published the Scofield Reference Bible, which contained copious notes that indoctrinated people into Darby's Dispensationalism. While pretty much rejected in England and Europe, the Scofield Bible was widely accepted in America and became the bedrock for many Bible colleges, such as Dallas Theological Seminary, Moody Bible Institute, and many Evangelical and Baptist colleges across America. The pre-trib rapture theory was born out of the false Dispensationalist system, which enables them, due to their false system, to make unorthodox interpretations of verses and passages that are taken completely out of context.

richwicks says

of eating from the Tree of Knowledge.

... of Good and Evil. Adam identified and named all the plants, animals, etc. and often questioned God. It wasn't Knowledge that was bad, but specifically of the knowledge of Good and Evil and the corresponding loss of innocence.

It's also possible that all of the religions hit upon many basic Truths, and that Christianity happens to have the most True form of it. And of metaphorical allegory vs. literal truth. The Garden of Eden being a great metaphor for childhood vs. adulthood as well. How many kids get a shock when they disobey parents, see something they shouldn't, and make a big step towards comprehending the adult world?

Not 100 years after Norway House in Canada developed the written form of Cree, Slavey, whatever, the Indians have a myth about somebody who had a good dream with a good song about developing a written word like the White Man centuries ago - when it happened almost within living memory and we have the European inventor of the alphabet's notes. Is the Indian version wrong? No, somebody had an idea to convert the Indian languages to written form, just like the White Man had.

Jordan Peterson talks about how an Indian Carver "Spoke to his Grand Uncle" in a dream and remembered how to do something technical/artistic. Pre- or Il-literate people's brains are wired differently, so what seems like a magical experience may simply be he recalled while dreaming his Grand Uncle instructing him or demonstrating the technique.

1337irr says

Before the rapture happens, buy puts on everything and give your atheist friend the brokerage account login info.

This one gave me a good chuckle, but unfortunately there won’t be much laughter on the earth after the rapture. And my guess is the stock market is going to take a huge hit to put it mildly.

NuttBoxer says

Revelation speaks to God's justice, His expectations of us, and the consequences of defying Him.

Revelation is a promise just like any other scripture. In Noah’s day God brought judgement, but he also provided a rescue. In Lot’s day God brought judgement but also provided a rescue. Likewise Revelation promises a coming judgement, and as described in the passages above and many others, there is a rescue appointment prior to the judgement.

One of my favorite verses from Revelation, 3:20
King James Version
20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

That is Revelation chapter 3, written to the churches. By Chapter 4 the churches are gone and soon the judgement begins.

richwicks says

No, you weren't. How can you be responsible for the transgressions of your parents?

You couldn't stop it, you had nothing to do with it, but you think you are responsible for it. This is crazy.

I never got this when I read it in the Old Testament. How can you punish kids for stuff their parents did? That's not what it means though. You know how your parents do certain things and you say "I'll never do that". Then you grow up, and do exactly that. That's what it means. Parents have such a huge influence on their kids, for good, and for bad.
More to the point though, we all are born into a broken relationship with God. At some point we are old enough to be aware of that, and must make a decision to accept the free gift of salvation that restores that relationship, or not.

richwicks says

IF there is a god, it's innate in all of us, all creatures, every living thing.

That's literally what happens when you accept Christ's gift. The Holy Spirit inhabits you, and you are forever tied to God in a very personal way. In the Old Testament we saw signs of what this could look like when Moses had to wear a veil after coming down from Mount Sinai because his face shown. A passage I always remember says something like we have this treasure in earthen vessals.
More generally, we are all created in God's image, by Him. We are all a reflection of our creator, but we have the ability to choose whether to honor that, or reject it.

I participated in a prayer meeting at a church I went to years ago. Not the best church, the leaders were gossips, and hypocrites. But that night we really connected with God in a way I've seldom done, through an extended period of prayer. After we left the meeting everything looked different. Clearer, shiner. Someone else even said that when we were leaving. God isn't real because I read it somewhere, He's real because I know Him. I have an active relationship with Him. That's how I know.

RayAmerica says

the history of the Pre-Trib rapture doctrine, which only came into existence in the 1850's,

Actually Jesus and Paul both taught the coming day in which living people would be caught up, taken away, or raptured in our current vernacular. Luke 17 Jesus taught about it. And Paul elaborated on it further after Jesus ascended into heaven and called him to be an apostle. 1 Corinthians 15 Paul spoke of the “mystery” we will not all die or “sleep” but there is coming a day on which the dead shall be raised and the living changed in the blink of an eye. But he clarified that in 1Thessalonians 4 that only the dead in Christ will rise on that day (not those who died in their sins) and likewise the Christians who are alive will be caught up in the clouds.

In 2 Thessalonians 2 some of the people of the church were confused and concerned (possibly deceived by false letters or false prophets) that they were about to see the return of Christ to judge the world. But Paul reassured them:

1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.
16 Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace,
17 Comfort your hearts, and stablish you in every good word and work.

It's gonna be a giant cosmic orgasm! The Milky Way will finally earn it's name.

Know what I mean Vern?

PeopleUnited says

the rapture

Skeet skeet skeet, lol

PeopleUnited says

Actually Jesus and Paul both taught the coming day in which living people would be caught up, taken away, or raptured in our current vernacular.

There's nothing to indicate this is a pre-tribulation rapture, and not the final day of judgement, where everyone being carried away and rising is for the purpose of standing before God as He goes through the book of their deeds.

This reference is perhaps the best study of Revelation that I have seen. If after reading this quite extensive review you still don’t see the pre-tribulation rapture, then at a least you will know that you have made your decision after a review of scripture and not the dogma handed down by whatever denomination you adhere to.

https://www.thepropheticyears.com/The%20book%20of%20Revelation/index.htm

This guy's heavily influenced by Zionist teachings that seem to dominate much of American theology. Before Christ there were only the Israelite believers, and after came the Jews and Zionists. Israel was meant to spread the gospel of salvation, but they not only rejected their role, they rejected their savior. God selecting Abraham is no different than Jesus selecting the 12. He works through a few to influence many. Ethnicity has shit to do with it.

If I can find the book I read, will link or put a reference here.

PeopleUnited says

you will know that you have made your decision after a review of scripture and not the dogma handed down by whatever denomination you adhere to.

And you don't think you are being influenced by this self described "Premillennial futurist?"

PeopleUnited,

Can you give me, without interpretation, specific verses or passages that CLEARLY and emphatically declare the following:

The Tribulation period will last 7 years.

The so-called "rapture" will take place specifically PRIOR to this tribulation period.

I think this gets into the same area as how long did creation last? Was it really seven days time as we know it today? Alot of the numbers in Revelation carry very specific symbolism, so taking them literally seems like a stretch.

Heaven and hell can be lived right here on earth. We all are heading for dust. I believe that it is our duty to better the world every day until we breathe no more. We all live on the same planet.

I believe in God. I can't tell you what that means other than I try to be ethical and moral. I am thankful for all the wonderful blessings I have and feel a connection to a higher power that gives me comfort and guidance. I try to treat others as I would like them to treat me.

I don't want to live in hell but I am not sure I am going to heaven.

Onvacation says

I am not sure I am going to heaven.

If you don’t know Jesus, most assuredly you will not. Only he can bring you there.

John 14 :1Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. 2In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. 4And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.

The Way, the Truth, and the Life
5Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way? 6Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

7If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.

NuttBoxer says

Zionist teachings

That’s lies and propaganda. Read Genesis 17 ask God how long the promise He made to Abraham, Isaac and their descendants is in effect? (Hint, verse 7, 19, 20)

RayAmerica says

PeopleUnited says

you will know that you have made your decision after a review of scripture and not the dogma handed down by whatever denomination you adhere to.

And you don't think you are being influenced by this self described "Premillennial futurist?"

Transparency is a good thing. He makes it clear in one of the prologues that he has been member of denominations who do and don’t teach what he is teaching. He believes that his perspective is not based on denominational dogma. Just read his prologues for yourself.
https://www.thepropheticyears.com/The%20book%20of%20Revelation/foreword.htm
https://www.thepropheticyears.com/The%20book%20of%20Revelation/Introduction.HTM

PeopleUnited says

My theory on the rapture:

The rapture will be a reward for humanity for lasting as long as it did.
Does the rapture come before or after the impending calamity, as the earth is slammed in the dirty side of the cosmic hurricane that is our solar systems travel through our galaxy? Or will they be asked biblical pop quizzes as they try to escape the impending doom?

I am not very religious (not in a conventional way at least), and this is a bit off-topic, but have you guys checked out the New Lexham version / project? I like what I have sampled thus far in comparison to the other versions. In particular I like its stated goal of being the most literal / accurate translation. Of course, all translations and even the oldest practices seem to have been tainted / corrupted over time (my opinion), so I do at least appreciate NL's ostensible mission.

Discovered it when I wrote script for a wedding.

I'm enjoying trying to learn a bit of ancient Greek and exactly what is written in the gospels at the same time:

https://biblehub.com/text/matthew/28-1.htm

Yeah, Patrick. As I understand it, New Lexham compares all versions (Greek, Hebrew, etc. I believe) and tries to reconcile them. Sort of a reverse game of telephone.

RayAmerica says

The Tribulation period will last 7 years.

You will likely remember that Jesus spoke in parables, and scripture is spiritually discerned 1 Corinthians 2:14 "But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."

The Bible is a unit. So if you are looking for Short text sound byte or specific Hebrew, Greek or English words for a teaching that was meant to be understood in the full context of the entire body of scripture you are likely to miss out on a lot of things

The length of the tribulation is quite clear when the pieces are put together. This link covers the question you asked pretty well.
https://www.gotquestions.org/tribulation.html

There might be a gap of unknown length of time between the rapture and the start of the tribulation or it might start relatively simultaneously. We know the Tribulation starts when the Antichrist (who will be seen as a righteous, wise and honorable being by many people) is revealed and this antichrist confirms a peace treaty in the Middle East.

The purpose of this thread is listed above. You don’t have to believe in the rapture, your eternal destiny is more important than arguing over whether Jesus is rescuing believers before or at the end of the world. But you do have to believe in Jesus Christ (savior and redeemer) if you want to be forgiven of your sins. And if you miss the rapture, hopefully some will see this thread and realize that what God said is happening just as He said it would.

steverbeaver says

Yeah, Patrick. As I understand it, New Lexham compares all versions (Greek, Hebrew, etc. I believe) and tries to reconcile them. Sort of a reverse game of telephone.

But the Old Testament was written in Hebrew, and the NT in Greek. So if you want the most accurate, you start with those language sources. NASB is supposed to be closest to Greek literal.

PeopleUnited says

NuttBoxer says

Zionist teachings

That’s lies and propaganda. Read Genesis 17 ask God how long the promise He made to Abraham, Isaac and their descendants is in effect? (Hint, verse 7, 19, 20)

Yet Israel was attacked and scattered, also following prophecy, because of their rejection of God. No where in the Bible does God say He will prevent our assertion of free will, or the consequences that follow bad decisions. And if you take a holistic, non-Jewish view of the Bible, it's clear God's plan was always for the world, not for Israel alone. So naturally, anyone who focus's on Jewish, i.e. post-Christ interpretations has been misled by strong Zionist undercurrent in this country.

My focus is not on Israel, nor is there any advantage or privilege to being Jewish in the eyes of God. The ground is level at the foot of the cross. But if you believe the Bible you owe it to yourself and your God to ask Him if all the promises He made to the descendants of Abraham have been fulfilled. Because if not, God has unfinished business in Jerusalem.

Revelation reveals that there is much more to come. Including the Tribulation, the millennial reign of Christ, and the final battle and judgement. The rapture could happen at any moment. So look up, for your redemption draweth nigh. Luke 21:28.

NuttBoxer says

Yet Israel was attacked and scattered, also following prophecy, because of their rejection of God. No where in the Bible does God say He will prevent our assertion of free will, or the consequences that follow bad decisions. And if you take a holistic, non-Jewish view of the Bible, it's clear God's plan was always for the world, not for Israel alone. So naturally, anyone who focus's on Jewish, i.e. post-Christ interpretations has been misled by strong Zionist undercurrent in this country.

Jews returning to Israel is a necessary precondition for the End of the World and for the great Conversion prior to the end.

They had to Fail to prove that Men were Unable to Follow Strict Laws, and Christ was the only way.
https://biblia.com/bible/esv/romans/11/11-29
Supercessionism disproved in Romans Chapter 11 - and a specific warning against being proud and haughty, too. You were grafted in, but the roots are elsewhere. If God removed some of the natural branches to make room for you, he will cut your ass off too if you get uppity about it.

An Unconditional Promise to the physical descendents of Jacob:
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Jeremiah+31%3A31-34&version=ESV

Restore them From the Northern Lands --- neither Babylon nor Egypt were North, but East and West. Eurasia is North.
https://biblia.com/bible/esv/Jer.%2016.15

https://biblia.com/bible/esv/Ezek.%2036.24

Remember, as Jesus told the Apostles, the First will be Last. The Church is NOT Israel, but Believers are grafted onto the Tree of Life (Faith in God).

The Church is any gathering of honest Believers, Israel is a physical land and an Ethnos.

Also, personally, I am saved through the Messiah, not through my Ethnos (which comes from my Father and not my Mother as the Bible emphasizes and often only gives Patrilineal Descent for most of the Patriarchs, Kings, Prophets contrary to the Talmud Matriliineal Exile Cope Baloney ), since I can't follow the Law AND the Law was perverted by Man who was told many times not to add or takeaway. The Talmud is an additive/subtractive endeavor because it adds rules that aren't there (ie No Cheese with Meat, while the Bible only says not to directly seeth a Kid in it's Mother's Own Milk or not using Elevators on the Sabbath though no work is involved in pushing a Button), there is no evidence of ANY Oral Torah in the OT or NT (Jesus AND Paul OR Apostles never quotes anything remotely Talmudic; 2 Kings the Jews forgot about the Passover which would be impossible if they remembered the alleged Oral Torah/Talmud since it mentions Passover repeatedly) and by human evidence there's no Oral Talmud at best before 400AD which is long after the latest possible dates for any NT writing.

BTW, Thanks to the Protestants for being Word/Bible First because it left the Door Ajar for me to come in and opened my eyes to the Talmud.

https://www.raptureready.com/2023/05/13/prophecy-the-accelerating-rate-of-acceleration-by-dave-hubley/

Are we nearly at terminal velocity?