patrick.net

NuttBoxer says

richwicks says

Why don't any of you question the amazing coincidence that you happened to be born into the One True Religion?

Why do you never question this?

Because it's a lie. I wasn't born into shit except the sins of my fathers.

No, you weren't. How can you be responsible for the transgressions of your parents?

You couldn't stop it, you had nothing to do with it, but you think you are responsible for it. This is crazy.

NuttBoxer says

No one's walking up stairs on their knees anymore man, salvation is free. Jesus died for all, Hindu, Jew, Satanist, Catholic, Nazi, NeoCon, pattnetter, even richwicks. He died for you, and nothing you can say or do will ever change that.

I actually truly, admire your faith, but I cannot participate in it.

I simply cannot.

IF there is a god, it's innate in all of us, all creatures, every living thing. Something created us for certain, but we don't know if it has intelligence or will.

Why does an animal show you affection and love? Consider that. You care for it, you protect it, you spend time with it. This is true for any animal you care for. Dog, cat, horse, cow, goat, sheep, anything. There is some fundamental force but I don't believe it's Christianity that explains it. I though it might be the concept of ahimsa that explained it, but it's even more fundamental than that.

I don't abhor your concept of god, I just think it's incomplete.

RayAmerica says

Shaman says

Finally, the purpose of the Tribulation is to offer a second chance at Salvation to those who didn’t get Raptured.

Did you hear that from some 'rapture preacher' or can you refer me to a very clear Bible verse or passage in order to back up that claim?

Search for yourself. It would take a lot to explain my reasoning, but I did quote the relevant verse above. It makes sense to me that a second chance is offered. Read up and see what you can find.

Shaman says

It makes sense to me that a second chance is offered. Read up and see what you can find.

With all due respect, and I really mean that, there is no such thing as a second chance that is mentioned anywhere in the Bible.

Please consider taking the time to read the free PDF book that I posted above "The Rapture of the Saints." If you do, I guarantee you are going to be surprised to learn the history of the Pre-Trib rapture doctrine, which only came into existence in the 1850's, literally trashing over 18 centuries of orthodox Christian doctrine.

NuttBoxer says

RayAmerica says

"You have to understand that Matthew 24, as well as much of the New Testament is written to and for the Jews.

Just a clarification; I did not say that, I was quoting what a "rapture preacher" said to me during a long ago conversation. His statement above revealed his hyper-dispensationalist viewpoint.

Dispensationalism was invented by a man by the name of John Nelson Darby (England) in the 1840's (as I recall). His system was immediately, and widely, rejected, particularly in England and Europe. However, Cyrus Scofield, a devout follower of Darby, wrote and published the Scofield Reference Bible, which contained copious notes that indoctrinated people into Darby's Dispensationalism. While pretty much rejected in England and Europe, the Scofield Bible was widely accepted in America and became the bedrock for many Bible colleges, such as Dallas Theological Seminary, Moody Bible Institute, and many Evangelical and Baptist colleges across America. The pre-trib rapture theory was born out of the false Dispensationalist system, which enables them, due to their false system, to make unorthodox interpretations of verses and passages that are taken completely out of context.

richwicks says

of eating from the Tree of Knowledge.

... of Good and Evil. Adam identified and named all the plants, animals, etc. and often questioned God. It wasn't Knowledge that was bad, but specifically of the knowledge of Good and Evil and the corresponding loss of innocence.

It's also possible that all of the religions hit upon many basic Truths, and that Christianity happens to have the most True form of it. And of metaphorical allegory vs. literal truth. The Garden of Eden being a great metaphor for childhood vs. adulthood as well. How many kids get a shock when they disobey parents, see something they shouldn't, and make a big step towards comprehending the adult world?

Not 100 years after Norway House in Canada developed the written form of Cree, Slavey, whatever, the Indians have a myth about somebody who had a good dream with a good song about developing a written word like the White Man centuries ago - when it happened almost within living memory and we have the European inventor of the alphabet's notes. Is the Indian version wrong? No, somebody had an idea to convert the Indian languages to written form, just like the White Man had.

Jordan Peterson talks about how an Indian Carver "Spoke to his Grand Uncle" in a dream and remembered how to do something technical/artistic. Pre- or Il-literate people's brains are wired differently, so what seems like a magical experience may simply be he recalled while dreaming his Grand Uncle instructing him or demonstrating the technique.

1337irr says

Before the rapture happens, buy puts on everything and give your atheist friend the brokerage account login info.

This one gave me a good chuckle, but unfortunately there won’t be much laughter on the earth after the rapture. And my guess is the stock market is going to take a huge hit to put it mildly.

NuttBoxer says

Revelation speaks to God's justice, His expectations of us, and the consequences of defying Him.

Revelation is a promise just like any other scripture. In Noah’s day God brought judgement, but he also provided a rescue. In Lot’s day God brought judgement but also provided a rescue. Likewise Revelation promises a coming judgement, and as described in the passages above and many others, there is a rescue appointment prior to the judgement.

One of my favorite verses from Revelation, 3:20
King James Version
20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

That is Revelation chapter 3, written to the churches. By Chapter 4 the churches are gone and soon the judgement begins.

richwicks says

No, you weren't. How can you be responsible for the transgressions of your parents?

You couldn't stop it, you had nothing to do with it, but you think you are responsible for it. This is crazy.

I never got this when I read it in the Old Testament. How can you punish kids for stuff their parents did? That's not what it means though. You know how your parents do certain things and you say "I'll never do that". Then you grow up, and do exactly that. That's what it means. Parents have such a huge influence on their kids, for good, and for bad.
More to the point though, we all are born into a broken relationship with God. At some point we are old enough to be aware of that, and must make a decision to accept the free gift of salvation that restores that relationship, or not.

richwicks says

IF there is a god, it's innate in all of us, all creatures, every living thing.

That's literally what happens when you accept Christ's gift. The Holy Spirit inhabits you, and you are forever tied to God in a very personal way. In the Old Testament we saw signs of what this could look like when Moses had to wear a veil after coming down from Mount Sinai because his face shown. A passage I always remember says something like we have this treasure in earthen vessals.
More generally, we are all created in God's image, by Him. We are all a reflection of our creator, but we have the ability to choose whether to honor that, or reject it.

I participated in a prayer meeting at a church I went to years ago. Not the best church, the leaders were gossips, and hypocrites. But that night we really connected with God in a way I've seldom done, through an extended period of prayer. After we left the meeting everything looked different. Clearer, shiner. Someone else even said that when we were leaving. God isn't real because I read it somewhere, He's real because I know Him. I have an active relationship with Him. That's how I know.

RayAmerica says

the history of the Pre-Trib rapture doctrine, which only came into existence in the 1850's,

Actually Jesus and Paul both taught the coming day in which living people would be caught up, taken away, or raptured in our current vernacular. Luke 17 Jesus taught about it. And Paul elaborated on it further after Jesus ascended into heaven and called him to be an apostle. 1 Corinthians 15 Paul spoke of the “mystery” we will not all die or “sleep” but there is coming a day on which the dead shall be raised and the living changed in the blink of an eye. But he clarified that in 1Thessalonians 4 that only the dead in Christ will rise on that day (not those who died in their sins) and likewise the Christians who are alive will be caught up in the clouds.

In 2 Thessalonians 2 some of the people of the church were confused and concerned (possibly deceived by false letters or false prophets) that they were about to see the return of Christ to judge the world. But Paul reassured them:

1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.
16 Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace,
17 Comfort your hearts, and stablish you in every good word and work.

It's gonna be a giant cosmic orgasm! The Milky Way will finally earn it's name.

Know what I mean Vern?

PeopleUnited says

the rapture

Skeet skeet skeet, lol

PeopleUnited says

Actually Jesus and Paul both taught the coming day in which living people would be caught up, taken away, or raptured in our current vernacular.

There's nothing to indicate this is a pre-tribulation rapture, and not the final day of judgement, where everyone being carried away and rising is for the purpose of standing before God as He goes through the book of their deeds.

This reference is perhaps the best study of Revelation that I have seen. If after reading this quite extensive review you still don’t see the pre-tribulation rapture, then at a least you will know that you have made your decision after a review of scripture and not the dogma handed down by whatever denomination you adhere to.

https://www.thepropheticyears.com/The%20book%20of%20Revelation/index.htm

This guy's heavily influenced by Zionist teachings that seem to dominate much of American theology. Before Christ there were only the Israelite believers, and after came the Jews and Zionists. Israel was meant to spread the gospel of salvation, but they not only rejected their role, they rejected their savior. God selecting Abraham is no different than Jesus selecting the 12. He works through a few to influence many. Ethnicity has shit to do with it.

If I can find the book I read, will link or put a reference here.

PeopleUnited says

you will know that you have made your decision after a review of scripture and not the dogma handed down by whatever denomination you adhere to.

And you don't think you are being influenced by this self described "Premillennial futurist?"

PeopleUnited,

Can you give me, without interpretation, specific verses or passages that CLEARLY and emphatically declare the following:

The Tribulation period will last 7 years.

The so-called "rapture" will take place specifically PRIOR to this tribulation period.

I think this gets into the same area as how long did creation last? Was it really seven days time as we know it today? Alot of the numbers in Revelation carry very specific symbolism, so taking them literally seems like a stretch.

Heaven and hell can be lived right here on earth. We all are heading for dust. I believe that it is our duty to better the world every day until we breathe no more. We all live on the same planet.

I believe in God. I can't tell you what that means other than I try to be ethical and moral. I am thankful for all the wonderful blessings I have and feel a connection to a higher power that gives me comfort and guidance. I try to treat others as I would like them to treat me.

I don't want to live in hell but I am not sure I am going to heaven.

Onvacation says

I am not sure I am going to heaven.

If you don’t know Jesus, most assuredly you will not. Only he can bring you there.

John 14 :1Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. 2In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. 4And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.

The Way, the Truth, and the Life
5Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way? 6Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

7If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.

NuttBoxer says

Zionist teachings

That’s lies and propaganda. Read Genesis 17 ask God how long the promise He made to Abraham, Isaac and their descendants is in effect? (Hint, verse 7, 19, 20)

RayAmerica says

PeopleUnited says

you will know that you have made your decision after a review of scripture and not the dogma handed down by whatever denomination you adhere to.

And you don't think you are being influenced by this self described "Premillennial futurist?"

Transparency is a good thing. He makes it clear in one of the prologues that he has been member of denominations who do and don’t teach what he is teaching. He believes that his perspective is not based on denominational dogma. Just read his prologues for yourself.
https://www.thepropheticyears.com/The%20book%20of%20Revelation/foreword.htm
https://www.thepropheticyears.com/The%20book%20of%20Revelation/Introduction.HTM

PeopleUnited says

My theory on the rapture:

The rapture will be a reward for humanity for lasting as long as it did.
Does the rapture come before or after the impending calamity, as the earth is slammed in the dirty side of the cosmic hurricane that is our solar systems travel through our galaxy? Or will they be asked biblical pop quizzes as they try to escape the impending doom?

I am not very religious (not in a conventional way at least), and this is a bit off-topic, but have you guys checked out the New Lexham version / project? I like what I have sampled thus far in comparison to the other versions. In particular I like its stated goal of being the most literal / accurate translation. Of course, all translations and even the oldest practices seem to have been tainted / corrupted over time (my opinion), so I do at least appreciate NL's ostensible mission.

Discovered it when I wrote script for a wedding.

I'm enjoying trying to learn a bit of ancient Greek and exactly what is written in the gospels at the same time:

https://biblehub.com/text/matthew/28-1.htm

Yeah, Patrick. As I understand it, New Lexham compares all versions (Greek, Hebrew, etc. I believe) and tries to reconcile them. Sort of a reverse game of telephone.

RayAmerica says

The Tribulation period will last 7 years.

You will likely remember that Jesus spoke in parables, and scripture is spiritually discerned 1 Corinthians 2:14 "But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."

The Bible is a unit. So if you are looking for Short text sound byte or specific Hebrew, Greek or English words for a teaching that was meant to be understood in the full context of the entire body of scripture you are likely to miss out on a lot of things

The length of the tribulation is quite clear when the pieces are put together. This link covers the question you asked pretty well.
https://www.gotquestions.org/tribulation.html

There might be a gap of unknown length of time between the rapture and the start of the tribulation or it might start relatively simultaneously. We know the Tribulation starts when the Antichrist (who will be seen as a righteous, wise and honorable being by many people) is revealed and this antichrist confirms a peace treaty in the Middle East.

The purpose of this thread is listed above. You don’t have to believe in the rapture, your eternal destiny is more important than arguing over whether Jesus is rescuing believers before or at the end of the world. But you do have to believe in Jesus Christ (savior and redeemer) if you want to be forgiven of your sins. And if you miss the rapture, hopefully some will see this thread and realize that what God said is happening just as He said it would.

steverbeaver says

Yeah, Patrick. As I understand it, New Lexham compares all versions (Greek, Hebrew, etc. I believe) and tries to reconcile them. Sort of a reverse game of telephone.

But the Old Testament was written in Hebrew, and the NT in Greek. So if you want the most accurate, you start with those language sources. NASB is supposed to be closest to Greek literal.

PeopleUnited says

NuttBoxer says

Zionist teachings

That’s lies and propaganda. Read Genesis 17 ask God how long the promise He made to Abraham, Isaac and their descendants is in effect? (Hint, verse 7, 19, 20)

Yet Israel was attacked and scattered, also following prophecy, because of their rejection of God. No where in the Bible does God say He will prevent our assertion of free will, or the consequences that follow bad decisions. And if you take a holistic, non-Jewish view of the Bible, it's clear God's plan was always for the world, not for Israel alone. So naturally, anyone who focus's on Jewish, i.e. post-Christ interpretations has been misled by strong Zionist undercurrent in this country.

My focus is not on Israel, nor is there any advantage or privilege to being Jewish in the eyes of God. The ground is level at the foot of the cross. But if you believe the Bible you owe it to yourself and your God to ask Him if all the promises He made to the descendants of Abraham have been fulfilled. Because if not, God has unfinished business in Jerusalem.

Revelation reveals that there is much more to come. Including the Tribulation, the millennial reign of Christ, and the final battle and judgement. The rapture could happen at any moment. So look up, for your redemption draweth nigh. Luke 21:28.

NuttBoxer says

Yet Israel was attacked and scattered, also following prophecy, because of their rejection of God. No where in the Bible does God say He will prevent our assertion of free will, or the consequences that follow bad decisions. And if you take a holistic, non-Jewish view of the Bible, it's clear God's plan was always for the world, not for Israel alone. So naturally, anyone who focus's on Jewish, i.e. post-Christ interpretations has been misled by strong Zionist undercurrent in this country.

Jews returning to Israel is a necessary precondition for the End of the World and for the great Conversion prior to the end.

They had to Fail to prove that Men were Unable to Follow Strict Laws, and Christ was the only way.
https://biblia.com/bible/esv/romans/11/11-29
Supercessionism disproved in Romans Chapter 11 - and a specific warning against being proud and haughty, too. You were grafted in, but the roots are elsewhere. If God removed some of the natural branches to make room for you, he will cut your ass off too if you get uppity about it.

An Unconditional Promise to the physical descendents of Jacob:
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Jeremiah+31%3A31-34&version=ESV

Restore them From the Northern Lands --- neither Babylon nor Egypt were North, but East and West. Eurasia is North.
https://biblia.com/bible/esv/Jer.%2016.15

https://biblia.com/bible/esv/Ezek.%2036.24

Remember, as Jesus told the Apostles, the First will be Last. The Church is NOT Israel, but Believers are grafted onto the Tree of Life (Faith in God).

The Church is any gathering of honest Believers, Israel is a physical land and an Ethnos.

Also, personally, I am saved through the Messiah, not through my Ethnos (which comes from my Father and not my Mother as the Bible emphasizes and often only gives Patrilineal Descent for most of the Patriarchs, Kings, Prophets contrary to the Talmud Matriliineal Exile Cope Baloney ), since I can't follow the Law AND the Law was perverted by Man who was told many times not to add or takeaway. The Talmud is an additive/subtractive endeavor because it adds rules that aren't there (ie No Cheese with Meat, while the Bible only says not to directly seeth a Kid in it's Mother's Own Milk or not using Elevators on the Sabbath though no work is involved in pushing a Button), there is no evidence of ANY Oral Torah in the OT or NT (Jesus AND Paul OR Apostles never quotes anything remotely Talmudic; 2 Kings the Jews forgot about the Passover which would be impossible if they remembered the alleged Oral Torah/Talmud since it mentions Passover repeatedly) and by human evidence there's no Oral Talmud at best before 400AD which is long after the latest possible dates for any NT writing.

BTW, Thanks to the Protestants for being Word/Bible First because it left the Door Ajar for me to come in and opened my eyes to the Talmud.

https://www.raptureready.com/2023/05/13/prophecy-the-accelerating-rate-of-acceleration-by-dave-hubley/

Are we nearly at terminal velocity?

we can’t predict rupture. thats what bible tells us. it’ll happen when we deserve it.

Bitcoiner says

But when you put your religion in my face that’s an automatic, ginormous red flag.

I feel the same way.

"I'm SOOOOOOO religious!!!!" is code for "you won't judge me to be moral, so I'm going to use my religion as a shield for my obvious lack of morality which you're later going to experience. I can't be an evil piece of shit, I'm SUPER religious!!!!"

Bitcoiner says

People who are born into a family / community outside of Christianity are doomed and go to hell just because they haven’t accepted Jesus in their life? What if they never had a chance?

I've asked this of some super, actually, religious people. "Everybody hears the word of God!" is their answer. They really believe that people in, say, Sri Lanka have come across the Bible at one point, and that was their one chance, and they blew it.

I can appreciate that people actually believe, but I also know what a sociopath is like as I've met certainly a few. Sociopaths will become whatever you want. They just want you to trust them, and they will do anything to gain that trust.

All televangelists are sociopaths, not a single one has a shred or morality or decency. They have absolute contempt for people and regard morality as a pathetic weakness of subhumans.

I envy the truly religious. When I tell people I am incapable of faith, they think I'm lying. If there's a god, it's innate in all of us, and no religion describes it. If there's a god, we're largely cut off from it during our lifetime - IF there is a god. There's a creator for certain, but no guarantee at all it's sentient or anything like that. Might be just be physics.

I grew up in the Midwest, so naturally I ran into a LOT of these kind of Christians. People who have no grace, hold to Puritan views without understanding they are cultural, not Biblical, and are completely two faced. I still like to go to church, but I'm pretty picky about where I'll take my family. And I won't force anyone to go. Had too much of that growing up, and the personal relationship is what matters, not what your parents make you do.

If someone tells you there's anything you can do to earn salvation, they don't understand the Gospel. The only difference that matters between a Christian and non-Christian - One has accepted God's free gift of salvation, the other has not. Does accepting a gift make you a better person? NO! It just makes you redeemed, by God, not of your own power, so I have nothing to brag or boast about.

I don't want anyone to be religious. I just want you to have a personal relationship with God.

On the pre-trib, was talking with my Mom who attended Seminary in addition to a BA. She said pre-trib is a very new interpretation, and uniquely American. Makes sense because older generations seemed to accept suffering more readily than people do today. I'm not a "we have to go through terrible shit" person, I'm an avoid if you can, and we definitely have a right to pursue happiness person. But pre-trib dogmatic belief, along with such literal interpretation of Revelations is the view people who haven't done much study, and don't like reality when it gets hard, tend to take.

Lines up with other poorly researched topics that have been discussed on patnet. I think some here need to spend less time on the internet, and more time reading books.

Bitcoiner says

richwicks says

"I'm SOOOOOOO religious!!!!" is code for "you won't judge me to moral, so I'm going to use my religion as a shield for my obvious lack of morality which you're later going to experience. I can't be an evil piece of shit, I'm SUPER religious!!!!"

Perfect. Exactly like that.

Big difference 99.99% of those people don't hurt you and they are a small minority. The vast swaths of "atheist" leftoids hurt you on a daily basis and can't wait to put you into a concentration camp for refusing the next jab or not supporting the current thing. Maybe a bit hyperbolic but correct at its core. That's why it's wiser to be leary of people who blame Christians for everything

mell says

Big difference 99.99% of those people don't hurt you and they are a small minority.

I knew one such guy that worked for the MIC, and was fucking his own stepdaughter.

The worst people I knew constantly talked about how religious they were, because it's literally a mask to hide what pieces of shit they are. The guy I just described is the worst case, he was a total sociopath, but there's lots of them. I knew a guy that worked as a mercenary, claimed he was uncomfortable that the woman he was banging wasn't married to him, married her, stuck around for a year, divorced her, and then sued and got alimony.

The guy was a fucking mercenary. Who could have guessed he wasn't REALLY religious?

There's two types of atheists. There's people who are just nothing, they really aren't atheists, they are just saying they are atheists, they don't know ANYTHING about religion, they don't know anything about natural sciences (which is what made me into an atheist, kicking and screaming into it), they're just fucking robots. They actually ARE religious, they believe unquestionably in "authorities".

I don't trust authority period. If somebody tells me X is true, I have enough confidence in my brain to be able to understand why X is true. If I can't understand it, then I leave it in the grey area of it being possible, but it's not enough for somebody to just make a claim and I can no longer be bullied into accepting something is "obviously true" at this point. "What are you stupid???" - well possibly I am, but why can't you explain it?

richwicks says

I knew one such guy that worked for the MIC, and was fucking his own stepdaughter.

That's despicable, but nothing compared to wanting to put half of the country into concentration camps. You fail to realize that religious righteousness and whatever comes with it, inbreeding, etc., usually revolves around the family or a small cult. Leftoid atheists seek large government power to fuck things up, much worse. Look at history.

mell says

That's despicable, but nothing compared to wanting to put half of the country into concentration camps.

When I lived in Colorado there was a popular radio show host called Bob Enyart that was calling for the end of our government, setting up a theocracy, and creating a "shadow government", and enforcing a state religion..

mell says

Look at history.

Let's look at history. The Roman Catholic Church was really the political center of Europe, that kept Europe undeveloped and impoverished for nearly 2,000 years. What broke that, is that a bunch of Europeans fled Europe, went to South and North America, and began development on everything from the pot bellied stove, to steam engines, democratic republics, the telephone, the photograph...

I don't believe in any one ideology. You need many. This current wave of wokeism stupidity, it will burn out. It might take a while, but it's not going to infect India, Russia, or China, EVER. It's basically a North America, European, Australia and New Zealand thing, and it will just weaken everybody that engages in it. It's self correcting.

richwicks says

Let's look at history. The Roman Catholic Church was really the political center of Europe, that kept Europe undeveloped and impoverished for nearly 2,000 years. What broke that, is that a bunch of Europeans fled Europe, went to South and North America, and began development on everything from the pot bellied stove, to steam engines, democratic republics, the telephone, the photograph...

I don't believe in any one ideology. You need many. This current wave of wokeism stupidity, it will burn out. It might take a while, but it's not going to infect India, Russia, or China, EVER. It's basically a North America, European, Australia and New Zealand thing, and it will just weaken everybody that engages in it. It's self correcting.

The Catholic church was operating in times where science was in its infancy, there is no comparison. And even then, the swaths of deaths by leftoid atheists are unmatched. We're talking about most recent times, stalin, lenin, hitler, khmer rouge etc.