patrick.net

AmericanKulak says

Palestine was never a country, not once, not ever.

Who cares? A "country" is whatever political entities recognize as a country. "Palestine" has been a region forever, just like the American Eskimos have a distinct culture or the Someydic people. This is just an annoying talking point. It's been a distinct region for centuries. The Roman Empire never existed as a country, neither did the Sioux - what were their boundaries? The aboriginals of Australia were never a country.

AmericanKulak says

And pan-Arabists admit Palestinians is just a propaganda term to create a division where there was no distinction; Arabs there are the same as Arabs in the rest of the Levant:

Just ignore the propaganda.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L0ZFeDWhlDo

That's Gold Meir saying she is a Palestinian.

AmericanKulak says

And the Middle Eastern Jews, who make up about half the Jewish population. All the ones expelled by Iraq, Algeria, etc. that Palestinian Apologists say were living in harmony with Arabs.

Israel itself caused unrest to drive Jews into Israel, we know this. There's Jews in leadership positions in Iran today, they don't want to go to Israel although they can.

AmericanKulak says

And most of the mere 1M Arabs present in 1945 were themselves economic immigrants from other regions.

The entire world's population exploded in the 1900's. You know this. When we hit modernity, farming techniques improved, child mortality went WAY down, life became a lot easier and children were much more likely to live to adulthood.

The Middle East WAS a safe haven for Jews at one point. They never had a holocaust, or an Inquisition which MOSTLY targeted Jews.

Israel has fucked that all up, and I expect that, in time, Europe is going to revert to their old ways. Look at our foreign policy, it's all dominated by Neocons, and they are MOSTLY Jewish. Eventually the chickens will come home to roost.

I'm not glad about this, but history rhymes. What we are seeing in the Middle East today is a TINY blip in time. You can say they are brutal societies, that you wouldn't want to live there, but their cultures are freaking old. They aren't taking in a bunch of "refugees" the US is making and they take the opportunity to remove their "undesirables" to Europe and the US and just who is championing this in OUR nations? It's not the "racist whites"..

richwicks says

just who is championing this in OUR nations? It's not the "racist whites"..

https://ignatiansolidarity.net/blog/2018/10/16/caravan-jesuit-migrant/

https://www.euronews.com/2023/09/23/pope-urges-europe-to-welcome-migrants-and-condemns-euthanasia

https://www.breitbart.com/faith/2022/10/09/pope-francis-europes-rejection-of-migrants-is-disgusting-sinful-and-criminal/

richwicks says

Israel itself caused unrest to drive Jews into Israel, we know this. There's Jews in leadership positions in Iran today, they don't want to go to Israel although they can.

But I thought it was a safe haven? You know, I have plenty of graphics on that in my meme folders if you want me to explode that myth.

richwicks says

Who cares? A "country" is whatever political entities recognize as a country.

An occupied territory has to be a place taken from another country. Jordan controlled West Bank by invading in 1947. Then the Israelis took it over in 1967. There is no substantial difference between "Palestinians' and Jordanians (who call themselves Palestinians) or for that matter from Syrians or Lebanese.

It's like suddenly creating "Upper Vermontonian" instead of "New Englander" or just "American"

And you're right - Palestinian WAS a synonym for Israeli, until the 1960s when the KGB instructed Arafat to steal the term for propaganda purposes. Prior to that era, "Palestinians" of today called themselves... wait for it... Arabs, or sometimes Fallahin (Farmers) like all Arab Farmers called themselves across the Arab World.

That Orwell quote fits Pukin's apologists like a fucking glove.

RWSGFY says

That Orwell quote fits Pukin's apologists like a fucking glove.

Yep, those types will always be with us. They were around in the Napoleonic Era too.

"Oh, I do admire that Napoleon. Why the fuss, let's leave Europe under his benign rule."

"Whomever is against my Civ culture is good, my Civ is rotten".

I enjoyed skimming through Antiwar.com about Venezuela, that's some mad simpin' for Maduras.

RWSGFY says

That Orwell quote fits Pukin's apologists like a fucking glove.

There's no point in criticizing a foreign country, it's not like we can vote the bastards out in Russia.

I know the US has lied, and a LOT, about the Ukraine situation. That ALONE tells me the US is in the wrong. If they were in the right, they wouldn't have to lie at all. I think nearly every war can be avoided, and it's a waste of resources to engage in it. It really doesn't matter to 99.99% of Americans if Ukraine wins or loses this war, or the outcome of the Afghanistan war, or Iraq, or Syria, or Libya, etc - so why is our nation involved with any of these conflicts?

I think people calling for support of a war, are just mindlessly repeating what the television told them to think, AND feel. They generally know nothing about the situation, much less the government LIED about a situation. It's not like we blew up Libya "to prevent a humanitarian crisis" - well.... Why did we blow up Libya? People don't even bother to ask that question, and I admit it's not an easy question to answer.

Patrick says

I don't follow that. Judaism existed long before Christianity. Christianity started as Jewish sect which spread to the Greeks.

And technically it was the Romans who crucified Jesus.

God's covenant started with Abraham, and it wasn't to make Abraham's decedents better than anyone else. It was a charge to represent God to the world, culminating in the birth of Christ, and Israel's mandate to spread the gospel to all the world. But Israel rejected their Messiah, and put Him up for charges. Rome didn't want to kill Jesus, Pilot tried to dissuade the crowd several times before finally capitulating.

The word Jew derives from the tribe of Judah, son of Israel(aka Jacob, Abraham's son). But the covenant started with Abraham, so how could Abraham be a "Jew"? What I'm talking about is the religion as it exists today. When Jesus died the veil in the Tabernacle was torn, symbolizing the restoration of a direct relationship with God. The sacrifices are no longer needed, because Jesus was the last one. Jews hold onto historical practices, but reject the core of what their religion was in the Old Testament. What you see practiced under the Pharisees and Sadducees is what remains today. An extremist view that rejects the core of the religion started with Abraham.

For these reasons the accurate word to describe Abraham's religion would be Christian, not Jew.

I say raz the Gaza strip down to the ground turn every building into dust and rubble, give the occupants 24 hours to get the fuck out and run to Iran, and never come back. Then level it and burry everyone and all who stays behind. Then finally after Israel has what they want. Tell them never call this number again, and erase their name from our speed dial.

I'm done with that whole dusty shit hole over there. And we can stop kissing every Jews ass here in America, that constantly slanders our names, and creates liabilities out of every word we utter, in Lawfare to silence their host countries, cities, and states. Fuck them TOO!

It's time they learn to respect other people besides their greedy self serving selves.

AmericanKulak says

No, we have unrelenting Propaganda in favor of Fakestine, with the BBC calling terrorists who shot 200+ people at a Peace Rave "Armed Activists" practicing "Resistance"

All European media, CNN, PMSNBC, and all Arab Media is Pro-Pali. Only some US Outlets and maybe half of Indian Media is neutral to pro-Israel.

I spent most of my life not knowing anything about Gaza other than they fire rockets into Israel. The United States literally has a loyalty clause to Israel. Epstein has heavy ties to Mossad.

I think your nose is showing brother.

AmericanKulak says

They will come to Jesus just before the End, and the Existence of Israel is necessary to the final Fulfillment.

Nope. Israel was replaced by the church, this was always the logical transition of God's plan. Not a specific denomination or physical building in Rome or elsewhere, but believers who have God within them through the Holy Spirit.

It's real easy to figure out if I'm right or not. Does God hold any group of people based on eugenics above another group?

AmericanKulak says

Fits Antiwar.com to a "T"

They're just against war. Obviously you're for it, despite I believe you understanding wars are impossible without banks. When's the last time you opened your wallet brother?

AmericanKulak says

Not gonna watch a 5 hour crank video, but I checked on a few of the links

I haven't finished it, and not all on Israel Gaza. But I hear you. You only care enough to justify your opinion hating people in Gaza, not enough to really be informed on any side other than yours.

You should at least watch the part where they blow that kids head off. If you're right, that scene shouldn't cause you any seconds thoughts at all. Or at least reply to why you're cool with IDF saying they will shoot kids?

Tenpoundbass says

I say raz the Gaza strip down to the ground turn every building into dust and rubble, give the occupants 24 hours to get the fuck out and run to Iran, and never come back.

Israel locks them in, they can't leave. Appreciate you being honest about your genocidal leanings.

The area occupied by Israel and Gaza was never wholly conquered by the Israelites, against God's decree. They gave up the war before wiping out the region. It's always been settled though, since Abraham's time different groups have lived there. I'm not sure why the debate around it being a country matters if people can trace by their roots for even a few generations, it's their home. This government construct seems to only exist to dehumanize groups people are against, and justify killing them.

And the government of Israel has mis-treated everyone in that region. I saw a documentary years back about them forcing the resettlement of Jews in the West Bank, it was fucked up. But this is real simple. If you support only Israel, or you hate only the occupants of Gaza, watch the video of the kid getting sniped. Read the quotes from the IDF about killing kids, and then tell me why it's ok to hurt children?

NuttBoxer says

Israel locks them in, they can't leave. Appreciate you being honest about your genocidal leanings.

I would think differently had Hamas launched an attack on the Police stations, Military outposts, the wall checkpoints, and the defenses of Israel, they did not.
They targeted young defenseless college kids. Then the folks in Gaza all ran out and celebrated like it was some great war victory.

Moreover I did not advocate bombing them in place. I said give them notice to get out.

Patrick says

And technically it was the Romans who crucified Jesus.

Here's the Biblical account:

1 And the whole multitude of them arose, and led him unto Pilate.

2 And they began to accuse him, saying, We found this fellow perverting the nation, and forbidding to give tribute to Caesar, saying that he himself is Christ a King.

3 And Pilate asked him, saying, Art thou the King of the Jews? And he answered him and said, Thou sayest it.

4 Then said Pilate to the chief priests and to the people, I find no fault in this man.

5 And they were the more fierce, saying, He stirreth up the people, teaching throughout all Jewry, beginning from Galilee to this place.

6 When Pilate heard of Galilee, he asked whether the man were a Galilaean.

7 And as soon as he knew that he belonged unto Herod's jurisdiction, he sent him to Herod, who himself also was at Jerusalem at that time.

8 And when Herod saw Jesus, he was exceeding glad: for he was desirous to see him of a long season, because he had heard many things of him; and he hoped to have seen some miracle done by him.

9 Then he questioned with him in many words; but he answered him nothing.

10 And the chief priests and scribes stood and vehemently accused him.

11 And Herod with his men of war set him at nought, and mocked him, and arrayed him in a gorgeous robe, and sent him again to Pilate.

12 And the same day Pilate and Herod were made friends together: for before they were at enmity between themselves.

13 And Pilate, when he had called together the chief priests and the rulers and the people,

14 Said unto them, Ye have brought this man unto me, as one that perverteth the people: and, behold, I, having examined him before you, have found no fault in this man touching those things whereof ye accuse him:

15 No, nor yet Herod: for I sent you to him; and, lo, nothing worthy of death is done unto him.

16 I will therefore chastise him, and release him.

17 (For of necessity he must release one unto them at the feast.)

18 And they cried out all at once, saying, Away with this man, and release unto us Barabbas:

19 (Who for a certain sedition made in the city, and for murder, was cast into prison.)

20 Pilate therefore, willing to release Jesus, spake again to them.

21 But they cried, saying, Crucify him, crucify him.

22 And he said unto them the third time, Why, what evil hath he done? I have found no cause of death in him: I will therefore chastise him, and let him go.

23 And they were instant with loud voices, requiring that he might be crucified. And the voices of them and of the chief priests prevailed.

24 And Pilate gave sentence that it should be as they required. - Luke 23: 1-24

The Apostle Paul wrote the following:

“For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they have of the Jews:”
“Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men:” - I Thessalonians 2:14,15

Sure, I know it well, just saying that it was the Romans who actually did it. Do they have no responsibility for whom they kill?

NuttBoxer says

For these reasons the accurate word to describe Abraham's religion would be Christian, new Jew.

This is very similar to the Muslim argument that Abraham and Jesus were Muslims.

AmericanKulak says

Palestine was never a country

I worked with a "Palestinian American" at my last job.

He was born in the mid 1940's in Jordan which is now today the West Bank.

His birth certificate states he was born in Jordan.

.

The Ashkenazi make up about 35% of the 6 million in Israel and look European.

Do they look like the ancestors they claim and who lived in Israel 2500 years ago ?
.

.

Yes, the 50% of Israel that are Sephardi look more Palestinian. One example of a Sephardi is below.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Dweck

.

Jews are somewhat mixed with the surrounding populations wherever they live.

There are Jews in India that look entirely Indian.

NuttBoxer says

Nope. Israel was replaced by the church, this was always the logical transition of God's plan. Not a specific denomination or physical building in Rome or elsewhere, but believers who have God within them through the Holy Spirit.

Nope, show me the verse. The Church is the Church, Israel is an ethnos, the sons of Abraham, given an unconditional covenant.

Does God lie and go back on His promises?

NuttBoxer says

They're just against war. Obviously you're for it, despite I believe you understanding wars are impossible without banks. When's the last time you opened your wallet brother?

Really? Go browse their Venezuela section. Just "West sucks, leave my dictators alone" bullshit.

RayAmerica says

The Apostle Paul wrote the following:

“For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they have of the Jews:”
“Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men:” - I Thessalonians 2:14,15

I ask, then, has God rejected his people? By no means! For I myself am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, a member of the tribe of Benjamin. - Romans 11

17But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, although a wild olive shoot, were grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing root of the olive tree, 18do not be arrogant toward the branches. If you are, remember it is not you who support the root, but the root that supports you. 19Then you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear. 21For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. 22Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off. - Romans 11:17-22

And it shall come to pass, when all these things are come upon thee, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before thee, and thou shalt call them to mind among all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath driven thee,
Deuteronomy 30:1

Replacement theology is false:

The view that Israel and the church are different is clearly taught in the New Testament. Biblically speaking, the church is distinct from Israel, and the terms church and Israel are never to be confused or used interchangeably. We are taught from Scripture that the church is an entirely new creation that came into being on the day of Pentecost and will continue until it is taken to heaven at the rapture (Ephesians 1:9–11; 1 Thessalonians 4:13–17). The church has no relationship to the curses and blessings for Israel. The covenants, promises, and warnings of the Mosaic Covenant were valid only for Israel. Israel has been temporarily set aside in God’s program during these past 2,000 years of dispersion (see Romans 11).

https://www.gotquestions.org/replacement-theology.html

John 19:1

1 Pilate then took Jesus and scourged Him.
2 And the soldiers twisted together a crown of thorns and put it on His head, and put a purple robe on Him;
3 and they began to come up to Him and say, “Hail, King of the Jews!” and to give Him slaps in the face.

The Soldiers Mock Jesus (Mark 16)
16 The Legionaries led Jesus away into the palace (that is, the Praetorium) and called together the whole company of soldiers.
17 They put a purple robe on him, then twisted together a crown of thorns and set it on him.
18 And they began to call out to him, “Hail, king of the Jews!”
19 Again and again they struck him on the head with a staff and spit on him. Falling on their knees, they paid homage to him.
20 And when they had mocked him, they took off the purple robe and put his own clothes on him. Then they led him out to crucify him.

Where was the Legion stationed there raised? Gaul. So the French killed Jesus with the Roman Imperialist Collaborating Priests pushing for it. Of course, that's NOT THE Fing Point. The point is the Word became True and Men killed their own Savior.

Tenpoundbass says

They targeted young defenseless college kids. Then the folks in Gaza all ran out and celebrated like it was some great war victory.

Moreover I did not advocate bombing them in place. I said give them notice to get out.

And if they can't leave, still raise it? You see how your statement draws me to advocating genocide?

Now they did take an army base and several military targets, but you bring up a good point. Why attack a festival with international attendees that guaranteed to immediately build a huge international backlash? There's no benefit, it hurts their cause. But I'd step back even further and ask why the most heavily fortified and surveilled border in the world was so easily breached with fucking hang gliders?

Of course, all this is sidebar. The restoration of Israel, the ethnos, is a precondition to the End Times. It's a sign everybody ought to repent as the Word is revealed in the World.

Just like Jews aren't uniquely bad in the OT for constantly falling away; the purpose of the OT is to set the stage for Jesus, to show that you can't be saved by works of obedience or ritual, and that even when a group of men are given blessings of God, it's not enough without the sacrifice of Jesus.

Patrick says

This is very similar to the Muslim argument that Abraham and Jesus were Muslims.

Of course not, they were Christians, and majority of major religions in the world stem from Christianity, including Islam. The parallel's are undeniable, they all stole from Christianity, but warped it to their own ends. Just like the Puritans in America, and modern day Jews in Israel.

This was actually a point I had not considered until I read something by Torba, and it definitely rang true. Zionism is a close second in this country behind Puritanism when it comes to influencing conservative Christians, and Americans in general.

Patrick says

Jews are somewhat mixed with the surrounding populations wherever they live.

There are Jews in India that look entirely Indian.

Yes, in fact they are really good people.

Patrick says

Jews are somewhat mixed with the surrounding populations wherever they live.

There are Jews in India that look entirely Indian.

Let's bring this further back, Ismael was Israel's brother, and all Muslims trace back to him. And as I mentioned Israelite's mixed with the various tribes they never fully conquered, adopting their sick religions, leading to many sacks of Jerusalem, and eventually the Diaspora.

NuttBoxer says

Just like the Puritans in America, and modern day Jews in Israel.

This was actually a point I had not considered until I read something by Torba, and it definitely rang true. Zionism is definitely a close second in this country behind Puritanism when it comes to influencing conservative Christians, and Americans in general.

The Puritans are amazing, they were key to the foundation of this country, revamped the legal process for better evidence after the Witch Trials, were incredibly devout and dedicated to the Savior. And insisted on the sovereignity of local Churches.

Torba is a FIB Jesuit Agent that never runs out of money and runs a honeypot. His outward appearance is that of a devout, but his "All Christians" is a misleading tactic on his part:

if he is the diehard trad of the Church he subscribes to, then he believes there is no salvation outside of it for Baptists, Methodists, etc. But, he also selectively rejects other Church teachings that don't mesh with his beliefs.

I know he rails about Spurgeon and Darby and has the whole "Bad Britain" thing going on for his Central European Unbiblical superstitions.

AmericanKulak says

Nope, show me the verse. The Church is the Church, Israel is an ethnos, the sons of Abraham, given an unconditional covenant.

Does God lie and go back on His promises?

The covenant was that God would bless the world through them. Jesus was that blessing. God never promised them superiority over anyone, and if you read through the Old Testament prophets, warned them numerous times of what would happen if they failed to follow Him. God never promised to exempt anyone from the consequences of sin, or from the repercussions of denying Jesus Christ His Son. Hell will be full of Jews, as in order to be a true Jew you must deny Christ, never receiving the gift of reconciliation provided by God.

The Tabernacle curtain was torn, the need for sacrifices ended. The 10 Commandments and all the Israelite law was never to bring salvation, but to point to the need for redemption through Christ. Remove all of that and all have left are an ethnic people remembering history, not a religion. Fanatics don't make a religion, they make a cult.

NuttBoxer says

Why attack a festival with international attendees that guaranteed to immediately build a huge international backlash? There's no benefit, it hurts their cause.

Uh - because Islamists are primitive retarded dirt bags? The stupidest and most uneducated people in the world live in Muslim/Arab countries where their religion has brainwashed them into extremism and anti-Semitism.

Al Qaeda attacking the US on 9/11 was pretty fucking stupid and guaranteed their destruction. Both Al Qaeda and ISIS were driven into dust and got a big portion of their home countries destroyed in the process and no major attacks in the US for 20+ years.

Until this latest atrocity, the Sunni Muslim world was coming to terms with Israel's existence and Saudi Arabia was on the cusp of formal relations with Israel.

Of course Iran and the Islamists in Gaza were against peaceful coexistence between Sunnis and Israelis - so here we are today.

Yet many on this forum are busy constructing crazy "satanist" conspiracy theories to justify your hatred of Jews and even your home country.

AmericanKulak says

Really? Go browse their Venezuela section. Just "West sucks, leave my dictators alone" bullshit.

Sounds like you advocate for Imperialism. Still hearing pro-war. Aren't any Venezuelans writing for that publication that I know of, just people against war. Aren't you against war?

NuttBoxer says

God never promised them superiority over anyone, and if you read through the Old Testament prophets, warned them numerous times of what would happen if they failed to follow Him.

Nobody made this argument. Other than being in control of Israel (and there are physical boundaries God sets on Israel beyond which he'll withdraw his hand), no superiority is promised to Jews.

Again, the entire OT is to set up the NT and the End Times, and be the demonstrator that Men are unable to elect their own salvation by obedience to Laws or Ritual.

NuttBoxer says

Hell will be full of Jews, as in order to be a true Jew you must deny Christ, never receiving the gift of reconciliation provided by God.

Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

Romans 11:25-26 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, and in this way all Israel will be saved. As it is written: “The deliverer will come from Zion;he will turn godlessness away from Jacob."

That above verse is NOT discussing the First Coming; it's part of the Epistles, the crucifixion has already happened. The verse is about the future.

NuttBoxer says

Only some US Outlets and maybe half of Indian Media is neutral to pro-Israel.

Though it has started turning right, India is a far left country for very long time with Communists and Muslims funded through NGOs etc by foreign entities and running so many media outlets who are anti-Indian. Obviously they are anti Israel as well.
In reality all right leaning population support Israel all the time. Poor Israel is surrounded by very bad countries and having very tough environment.

Blue says

NuttBoxer says

Only some US Outlets and maybe half of Indian Media is neutral to pro-Israel.

Though it has started turning right, India is a far left country for very long time with Communists and Muslims funded through NGOs etc by foreign entities and running so many media outlets who are anti-Indian. Obviously they are anti Israel as well.
In reality all right leaning population support Israel all the time. Poor Israel is surrounded by very bad countries and having very tough environment.

I think that was my quote, but the quote system isn't working great on here sometimes.

Great thing about India is that so many got wise to the Congress Socialist-for-the-rich Scam and moving the country towards growth and prosperity. A lot of work to be done but very inspiring for the world that finds itself in the grip of Globalist Socialism.

socal2 says

Uh - because Islamists are primitive retarded dirt bags? The stupidest and most uneducated people in the world live in Muslim/Arab countries where their religion has brainwashed them into extremism and anti-Semitism.

There we are, you've admitted to being an avid racist and bigot, and therefore I'm sure you're ok with killing kids. There's definitely groups I don't like, but I would never dehumanize them like you have. This is what brainwashed extremism does to people. All I've advocated for is an equal claim to suffering by all citizens in this conflict. But you're racist views won't allow you that middle ground. I don't have time for people so full of hatred for their fellow man.

AmericanKulak says

Again, the entire OT is to set up the NT and the End Times

You keep referencing this, but it's a mis-interpretation of scripture. I recently read a study of Revelations, and while I don't agree with everything the author said, as he pretty much takes all the prophecy out of it, or kind of skips over it, he does make some good points that invalidate the theory of the 144k coming from Israel literally. There's a lot of that kind of Zionist teaching in American Christianity. God didn't need a group of people based on nationality, ethnicity, or any other worldy classifications after Jesus, just the church. A spiritual kingdom. Another stumbling block as many Israelite's saw the coming of the Messiah as their freedom from Rome. Jesus made it clear in a number of places, that was never the kingdom He would establish. So after Him all references to a worldly physical kingdom are mis-representations of that same Jewish teaching.

AmericanKulak says

The Puritans are amazing, they were key to the foundation of this country, revamped the legal process for better evidence after the Witch Trials, were incredibly devout and dedicated to the Savior. And insisted on the sovereignity of local Churches.

They literally thought themselves better than others. The roots of Eugenics, our current government structure, the Civil War, all point back to them. A group of people who think they have the right to play God and force their world on everyone else.

I believe I posted that alternative take on the War Between the States here. I recommend reading it.