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Not So Fast on Electric Cars - WSJ


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2022 Dec 26, 9:49am   51,236 views  778 comments

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Not So Fast on Electric Cars - WSJ

Allysia FinleyDec. 25, 2022 6:20 pm ET

Toyota’s CEO delivers a timely warning, and many states echo it.

Toyota CEO Akio Toyoda recently caused the climate lobby to blow a fuse by speaking a truth about battery electric vehicles that his fellow auto executives dare not. “Just like the fully autonomous cars that we were all supposed to be driving by now,” Mr. Toyoda said in Thailand, “I think BEVs are just going to take longer to become mainstream than the media would like us to believe.” He added that a “silent majority” in the auto industry share his view, “but they think it’s the trend, so they can’t speak out loudly.”
The Biden administration seems to believe that millions of Americans will rush out to buy electric vehicles if only the government throws enough subsidies at them. Last year’s infrastructure bill included $7.5 billion in grants for states to expand their charging networks. But it’s a problem when even the states are warning the administration that electric vehicles aren’t ready to go mainstream.

Maine notes in a plan submitted to the Federal Highway Administration this summer that “cold temperatures will remain a top challenge” for adoption, since “cold weather reduces EV range and increases charging times.” When temperatures drop to 5 degrees Fahrenheit, the cars achieve only 54% of their quoted range. A vehicle that’s supposed to be able to go 250 miles between charges will make it only 135 miles on average. At 32 degrees—a typical winter day in much of the country—a Tesla Model 3 that in ideal conditions can go 282 miles between charges will make it only 173 miles.
Imagine if the 100 million Americans who took to the road over the holidays were driving electric cars. How many would have been stranded as temperatures plunged? There wouldn’t be enough tow trucks—or emergency medics—for people freezing in their cars.
The Transportation Department is requiring states to build charging stations every 50 miles along interstate highways and within a mile of off-ramps to reduce the likelihood of these scenarios. But most state electrical grids aren’t built to handle this many charging stations and will thus require expensive upgrades. Illinois, for one, warns of “challenges related to sufficient electric grid capacity, particularly in rural areas of the state.”

Charging stations in rural areas with little traffic are also unlikely to be profitable and could become “stranded assets,” as many states warn. Wyoming says out-of-state traffic from non-Tesla electric vehicles would have to increase 100-fold to cover charger costs under the administration’s rules. Tesla has already scoped out premier charging locations for its proprietary network. Good luck to competitors.

New Mexico warns that “poor station maintenance can lead to stations being perpetually broken and unusable, particularly in rural or hard to access locations. If an EV charging station is built in an area without electrical capacity and infrastructure to support its use, it will be unusable until the appropriate upgrades are installed.”

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Arizona says “private businesses may build and operate a station if a grant pays for the first five years of operations and maintenance” but might abandon the project if it later proves unprofitable. Many other states echo this concern, noting that federal funds could result in stranded assets.

The administration aims to build 500,000 stations, but states will likely have to spend their own money to keep them running. Like other federal inducements, these grants may entice states to assume what could become huge financial liabilities.

Federal funds also come with many rules, including “buy America” procurement requirements, which demand that chargers consist of mostly U.S.-made components. New Jersey says these could “delay implementation by several years” since only a few manufacturers can currently meet them. New York also says it will be challenging to comply with the web of federal rules, including the National Environmental Policy Act, the Americans with Disabilities Act, the Uniform Relocation Assistance and Real Property Acquisition Policies Act of 1970, and a 1960 federal law that bars charging stations in rest areas.

Oh, and labor rules. The administration requires that electrical workers who install and maintain the stations be certified by the union-backed Electric Vehicle Infrastructure Training Program. New Mexico says much of the state lacks contractors that meet this mandate, which will reduce competition and increase costs.

Technical problems abound too. Virginia says fast-charging hardware “has a short track record” and is “prone to malfunctions.” Equipment “previously installed privately in Virginia has had a high failure rate shown in user comments and reports on social media,” and “even compatibility with credit card readers has been unexpectedly complicated.”

A study this spring led by University of California researchers found that more than a quarter of public direct-current fast-charging stations in the San Francisco Bay Area were unusable. Drivers will be playing roulette every time they head to a station. If all this weren’t disconcerting enough, Arizona warns cyber vulnerabilities could compromise customer financial transactions, charging infrastructure, electric vehicles and the grid.

Politicians and auto makers racing to eliminate the internal-combustion engine are bound to crash into technological, logistic and financial realities, as Mr. Toyoda warned. The casualties will be taxpayers, but the administration doesn’t seem to care.


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257   socal2   2024 Jan 23, 6:15pm  

WookieMan says

Question. How often to you leave CA? I think a lot of Californians have a distorted view of what the country is and should be.


Trust me - you don't want anything California is offering other than our perfect weather, natural beauty and Tesla!

I travel about every other week in the Western half of the US for work (Northern California, Oregon, Nevada, Idaho, Utah, Arizona, Montana) and a couple East Coast trips a year. I grew up in the Midwest and go back home to visit frequently. Yes, California is Tesla Mecca because Tesla was founded here and there are alot of rich early adopters in the Bay Area that could afford them 10 years ago and were attracted to the perceived greenness of the car.

But Tesla's are now much more affordable instead of just being a rich man's toy and will only get cheaper as they continue to ramp production and introduce the Model 2. People like me (who don't care about climate change) can now afford them and we get them because they are a total blast to drive.

I convinced one of my burly aftermarket sales guy who covers heavy equipment in the water industry in the Pacific NW to get a Model Y last year and he loves it. He gets some grief from some of his rural customers until they drive it.

Alot of my Montana guys at work are interested in the Cybertruck which will be a perfect work truck for around town business.

No need to force EV adoption with incentives, I think it will continue to come along naturally thanks to the amazing engineering at Tesla.
258   GNL   2024 Jan 23, 7:13pm  

@socal2, you own your own business?
259   HeadSet   2024 Jan 23, 7:32pm  

socal2 says

No need to force EV adoption with incentives, I think it will continue to come along naturally thanks to the amazing engineering at Tesla.

Correct. But one of those innovations will be a solid-state battery or other battery tech that is an improvement on Lithium-Ion. That will make current Lithium Ion powered cars a nonstarter in the used car market. Not a problem if you had your lithium ion for 10 years of use, but not so good if you bought the last model year of the lithium-ion power.
260   socal2   2024 Jan 23, 8:02pm  

GNL says

socal2, you own your own business?


No - I manage the West Region for a large water technology and infrastructure company. I was referring to "my guys" as my sales engineers who cover the territory and travel by car frequently. When I first started here about 3 years ago, I was the "new" senior guy they hired from SoCal and I'm visiting branches in Montana and Idaho talking up Tesla and surfing and they all thought I was a liberal California douche until they got to know my politics and drive my car!
261   ForcedTQ   2024 Jan 23, 9:01pm  

HeadSet says

socal2 says


No need to force EV adoption with incentives, I think it will continue to come along naturally thanks to the amazing engineering at Tesla.

Correct. But one of those innovations will be a solid-state battery or other battery tech that is an improvement on Lithium-Ion. That will make current Lithium Ion powered cars a nonstarter in the used car market. Not a problem if you had your lithium ion for 10 years of use, but not so good if you bought the last model year of the lithium-ion power.

At that point it may make sense to build retrofit packs for some of the EVs with high production figures and make solid state conversion batteries/controllers that will extend the life of the appliances.
262   WookieMan   2024 Jan 23, 10:00pm  

socal2 says

Alot of my Montana guys at work are interested in the Cybertruck which will be a perfect work truck for around town business.

Where? Was just there this time last year roughly. Didn't see one Tesla. Was in Bozeman, Belgrade, Ennis, Livingston, Missoula and Big Sky (yuppieville). I've been in summer and winter for about a decade visiting every year. Never have seen a Tesla. Cyber trucks are obviously delivering at this point. I bet I don't see one. About the only thing you do is drive in MT. We'll see.

My point has been you CA guys are in a high cost of living area. So seeing a Tesla isn't a big deal because wages have to match the high cost of living. Tesla is reaching market saturation as well. Men want to wrench on a car. Not drive a golf cart. I actually do drive a golf cart. I like Musk as a person without knowing him. They're fun to drive, but so are a lot of other cars at lower prices. Depends on your needs. I need utility and Tesla has yet to provide that. It's just a zippy car that you pay double for than any similar size/model of car.

I'll take my bigger car and gas all day. It just makes more sense and is still cheaper. Enjoy a Tesla. There's a tidal wave of taxes and fees coming. You've been warned. You know the water industry and I'd listen to your input. Your fees whether it be at a charging station, your home with increased rates on electric based on registration or a flat out 4 figure tax annually when you renew is coming. They're coming for you. We don't have the grid. Especially CA. It's not your fault but your roads suck. Every EV takes away road taxes (MFT).

I've yet to see a user deny that Tesla is a good car. We're talking price, utility, range, charging, etc. If you drive 10 miles a day congrats on living close to work. That's not sarcasm either. A Tesla works for you. It doesn't for 70%+ of the population. They either can't afford it or need more utility. It's a novelty car.
263   AD   2024 Jan 26, 6:11pm  

.

Tesla only about 25% above fall of 2020 price level ... Tesla's real return is 25% minus 15% inflation, or 10% since 2020

.
264   Eman   2024 Jan 27, 10:07am  

For anyone who hasn’t driven a Tesla, or own one, give it a try and experience it first hand. I agree with this poster’s write up.

“Tesla is increasingly politicized. The extreme circumstances of which I don't think any car manufacturer has ever seen or endured this long. This is unfortunate and unfair to the designers, engineers, and the vehicles themselves to not get a fair shake. I think the way to overcome that is once again to get butts in seats. Without experiencing it personally, everyone will naturally reach an uninformed initial opinion of something when it is inherently foreign to them and divisive in nature. However, that surface-level prejudiced opinion (prejudiced, btw, on both excessively negative and excessively positive sides) melts away when it becomes a real, lasting experience like I've had the pleasure to have. It then is no longer a conceptual debate but is a life experience. Then, the odds of a more accurate understanding increase tenfold.”

https://x.com/unpluggedtesla/status/1751284051556835779?s=46&t=5lEEPaezr6Ic-W4Z6huZ5Q

I’m also an early reservation holder for the Cybertruck and has been asked to design mine and take delivery. Due to the GVWR if the CT, it qualifies for IRS Section 179 business deduction.


265   Eman   2024 Jan 27, 11:12am  

Experience from a truck driver who had never driven a Tesla before. Seems like Semi trucks work for regional for now. Tesla is working on ramping up Semi production this year. Cost savings, or not, will be determine in the coming years.

https://x.com/gailalfaratx/status/1751246432584003679?s=46&t=5lEEPaezr6Ic-W4Z6huZ5Q

https://x.com/evasteslasplaid/status/1750843655634530477?s=46&t=5lEEPaezr6Ic-W4Z6huZ5Q
266   Onvacation   2024 Jan 27, 11:58am  

WookieMan says

So seeing a Tesla isn't a big deal because wages have to match the high cost of living.

We got so many Teslas that the HOV lane is the slow lane.
267   GNL   2024 Jan 27, 1:08pm  

This is just too funny. I'm supposed to ignore everything about EVs just because I like how it accelerates? Too funny. Wookieman has detailed the ridiculousness of EVs already. I will say that IMO the green agenda is all about 1 thing and 1 thing only...$$. How do you make ungodly amounts of money if you are a partner with the government? I'm not talking about just Elon. I'm talking about every politician and corporation that stands to gain monetarily. Change. Change, especially when you can front run the change, is extremely profitable. EVs simply do not make sense over an ICE vehicle.


268   GNL   2024 Jan 27, 1:14pm  

If that's a truck, then this is a breathing device....




269   Eman   2024 Jan 27, 6:17pm  

The Cybertruck may look unconventional to some, but beauty is in the eye of the beholder. It’s definitely not for everyone. Some people are going nuts with their Cybertruck.

It’s also interesting to know where the designer got their concept/design from.
















270   GNL   2024 Jan 27, 7:13pm  

You're a rich guy right, Eman? Why not get yourself a real car.


273   GNL   2024 Jan 27, 7:16pm  

Why does Tesla feel they must be different to the point of making ugly vehicles? They have even less, I assume, restraints on design.
274   HeadSet   2024 Jan 27, 7:29pm  

GNL says

Why does Tesla focus on making ugly vehicles? They have even less, I assume, restraints on design.

Status. While some one may mistake your Model 3 for a Nissan or Toyota, no one will mistake that cybertruck for anything but a Tesla.
275   HeadSet   2024 Jan 27, 7:34pm  

Eman says

The Cybertruck may look unconventional to some, but beauty is in the eye of the behold

True, but Honda and GM tried a different look for a pickup (original Honda Ridgeline, Chevy Avalanche, Cadillac Escalade Truck), but all went back to the conventional looking pickup.
276   GNL   2024 Jan 27, 8:00pm  

Tesla's design is not an improvement. No, in fact it's a downgrade in design and functionality.
277   GNL   2024 Jan 27, 8:05pm  

Beauty is beauty. I guess Tesla doesn't believe they can compete with beautiful cars. Seriously, no one ever creates something with the intent of the thing being ugly. Or do they? Are there any examples of where a manufacturer created something with the intention of the thing look different for the sole purpose of looking different? Even to the point that 1. The design sucks 2. It's fugly and 3. It was/is a successful product?
278   GNL   2024 Jan 27, 8:12pm  

Communism always creates ugly shit.
279   Eman   2024 Jan 27, 8:13pm  

GNL says

You're a rich guy right, Eman? Why not get yourself a real car.




What is your definition of rich? What is a real car? Honest questions. There must be some basis to compare.

A buyer of a Tesla Model S is not in a market for a Camry hybrid or not. A person buying a new Model X is not in the market for a Rav 4 or a Nissan Armada, forget about a used one. This is why I insisted on comparing apples to apples.
280   Eman   2024 Jan 27, 8:18pm  

HeadSet says

Eman says


The Cybertruck may look unconventional to some, but beauty is in the eye of the behold

True, but Honda and GM tried a different look for a pickup (original Honda Ridgeline, Chevy Avalanche, Cadillac Escalade Truck), but all went back to the conventional looking pickup.

I guess this is why the Rivian truck is doing well? It’s more conventional looking than the Cybertruck? People vote with their checkbook. Let’s give it a year or two and see how the Cybertruck does compared to the Rivian. I don’t think the Ford Lightning is doing as well as the Rivian.
281   GNL   2024 Jan 27, 8:37pm  

Eman says


What is your definition of rich? What is a real car? Honest questions. There must be some basis to compare.

I assume your income is in the 7 figures. A real car is, IMO, a car that can go anywhere at any time. Tesla cannot do that.
282   PeopleUnited   2024 Jan 27, 8:43pm  

GNL says

Eman says



What is your definition of rich? What is a real car? Honest questions. There must be some basis to compare.

I assume your income is in the 7 figures. A real car is, IMO, a car that can go anywhere at any time. Tesla cannot do that.



Anywhere, any time! 3.5 mpg.
283   RWSGFY   2024 Jan 27, 9:05pm  

GNL says

Beauty is beauty. I guess Tesla doesn't believe they can compete with beautiful cars. Seriously, no one ever creates something with the intent of the thing being ugly. Or do they? Are there any examples of where a manufacturer created something with the intention of the thing look different for the sole purpose of looking different? Even to the point that 1. The design sucks 2. It's fugly and 3. It was/is a successful product?


Model S looks good. The rest look worse because stretching or shrinking of the original rarely match, let alone exceed it.
284   rocketjoe79   2024 Jan 27, 10:47pm  

UkraineIsFucked says







It also turns out Mississippi has the lowest per capita income of all states. California is top 5, and very high population.
Charts can lie.
285   Booger   2024 Jan 28, 6:41am  

It was never about EV vs REAL CARS. It was a trap.

https://youtu.be/fNK0mUhRKDo?si=rtHYa1l4aqvIjNfg
286   GNL   2024 Jan 28, 7:11am  

PeopleUnited says

GNL says


Eman says




What is your definition of rich? What is a real car? Honest questions. There must be some basis to compare.

I assume your income is in the 7 figures. A real car is, IMO, a car that can go anywhere at any time. Tesla cannot do that.




Anywhere, any time! 3.5 mpg.

I didn't mean to include rock climbing. I meant anywhere as in the car won't be stranded because there's nowhere to charge it. Let's see a Telsa go the length of route 66 without getting stranded.
287   Eman   2024 Jan 28, 8:35am  

GNL says

Eman says



What is your definition of rich? What is a real car? Honest questions. There must be some basis to compare.

I assume your income is in the 7 figures. A real car is, IMO, a car that can go anywhere at any time. Tesla cannot do that.

Is your definition of rich making 7 figures/year? Not rich is making less?

By your definition, Tesla is a real car FOR US. We haven’t had any issues going anywhere we wanted to go FOR US. We don’t own an ICE car and don’t see us going back to one in the future. 4 of our siblings are 100% Tesla households. Some are 50/50. Some get free charging at work. They work for where we live. That’s why I repeatedly said do what works for us. Do what we can control. No need to force anyone to do anything.
288   Eman   2024 Jan 28, 8:45am  

GNL says

Beauty is beauty. I guess Tesla doesn't believe they can compete with beautiful cars. Seriously, no one ever creates something with the intent of the thing being ugly. Or do they? Are there any examples of where a manufacturer created something with the intention of the thing look different for the sole purpose of looking different? Even to the point that 1. The design sucks 2. It's fugly and 3. It was/is a successful product?

To your points, which products, could you think of, that have an ugly design and a success?

If the Cybertruck outsold the Rivian, Ford Lightning, and Hummer trucks combined in the next year or two, would you consider it’s a success?
289   GNL   2024 Jan 28, 9:05am  

Eman says

No need to force anyone to do anything.

But that's not what's going to happen. I believe things will become more and more restrictive.
290   GNL   2024 Jan 28, 9:07am  

Eman says


If the Cybertruck outsold the Rivian, Ford Lightning, and Hummer trucks combined in the next year or two, would you consider it’s a success?

Yes, depending on how many years. Hummer was big. Now I don't see them at all. Are we going to compare each vehicle at their highest sales volumes? Lots of vehicles are going to go the way of the Dodo bird simply because of the government. EVs have an unfare advantage going forward, no? I believe something similar happened that helped the VW bug sell more cars than ever in history. Would you really call that success?
291   Eman   2024 Jan 28, 9:40am  

All EV trucks are on the same playing field aren’t they? This is why I compare this “fugly” Cybertruck to other conventional looking trucks. If the goal is for the Cybertruck to over taken the F-150, I don’t see it happening.

I’m a realist. I like to compare apples to apples. I won’t wast my time with people who compare apples to oranges to make a point.

Going back to your definition of “rich”. What is your definition? I can’t answer your question if I’m rich, or not, without knowing your definition.
292   GNL   2024 Jan 28, 10:05am  

Ok, you're saying let's see if the cybertruck outsells other EV trucks? In that case, well I'm not sure. I can't imagine anyone would want the cyber truck over a "normal" looking EV truck all things considered. Yes, I guess we'll see.

Is top 10% considered rich any more?
293   Eman   2024 Jan 28, 10:21am  

GNL says

Ok, you're saying let's see if the cybertruck outsells other EV trucks? In that case, well I'm not sure. I can't imagine anyone would want the cyber truck over a "normal" looking EV truck all things considered. Yes, I guess we'll see.

Is top 10% considered rich any more?

I don’t know. You tell me since you’re the one asking the question. I don’t know what is considered rich. As I mentioned before, households in the Bay Area making $350-$500k/year consider themselves “middle class”. Is that middle class to you?
294   GNL   2024 Jan 28, 11:12am  

350-500 is upper middle class where I live. Certainly at the 500 mark.
296   DemocratsAreTotallyFucked   2024 Jan 28, 4:47pm  

Eman says

Very interesting. Who would have thought?



https://x.com/teslaconomics/status/1751653318362108182?s=46&t=5lEEPaezr6Ic-W4Z6huZ5Q


What? A bunch of photoahopped Tesla Fluffing bullshit?

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