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Not everyone can be smart. EV madness.


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2024 Jan 20, 2:37pm   3,732 views  91 comments

by GNL   ➕follow (0)   💰tip   ignore  

We Didn’t Start the Fire . . .
By eric -January 17, 2024



Putting out an EV fire is the other problem. One arising from the problem that EVs can – and do – catch fire spontaneously, which is a new problem.

It was once the case that a car didn’t catch fire unless someone else ran into it – or it ran into something else – at a speed high enough to puncture the gas tank and cause the sparks (from mashing metal) needed to ignite the leaking gas.

Cars didn’t just catch fire – while parked – unless someone put a lit rag in the gas filler neck.

EVs, on the other hand, can – and do – catch fire when parked. Maybe not often, but that is beside the point. People don’t often get AIDs, either. But it’s prudent to avoid situations where AIDs might be acquired.

https://youtu.be/itGeAq9rBeY?si=mppfpcgsXAeqJ_6Q

Just so, it is prudent to avoid situations that might lead to your house catching fire. As by leaving an EV parked in the garage. Or even in the driveway, for that matter – as EV fires burn extremely hot and are extremely difficult to extinguish.

This brings up another problem:Dealing with EV fires.

And paying for it all.

EV battery fires are not like ordinary fires, which can be extinguished with water and – once extinguished – are extinguished. EV battery packs are not only susceptible to spontaneous combustion, they are capable of spontaneous re-ignition. They also cause the emission of extremely toxic gasses – as opposed to the innocuous gas (carbon dioxide) arising from the burning (in an engine) of gasoline. We breath in C02 (along with oxygen and nitrogen) with every breath we take – with no harmful effects.

Breathe in some of the gasses emitted by an EV fire and see what it does to your health.

Ask a fireman about that.

They use heavy duty gear – including self-contained breathing systems – to avoid breathing the emissions of EV battery fires. Because they’d die if they didn’t.

And they have special, expensive additional equipment to deal with EV battery fires that can only be suppressed rather than extinguished. For example (as in the video above) a special blanket to wrap the EV in, so as to try to dampen the fire. The soldering hulk is then dragged onto a flatbed and convoyed – with escorts – to the junkyard, where it must be set as far away from the other junk that’s already there, in order to prevent the smoldering hulk from catching all of that on fire, too.

EVs can also catch fire – and keep burning – when exposed to water.

https://youtu.be/MocjA8G2saI?si=ByJZISnz_5Dy4VGD

Under water.

You can probably guess who’s going to pay for all of this.

Expect your property tax bill to go up (again) in order to provide the fire department in your town/county with the additional equipment it needs to deal with the problem of EV battery fires – arising from the EV problem of spontaneous combustion. In addition to the problem of EVs catching fire when struck in an accident, which they are more prone to because all that’s needed to start a runaway reaction is damage to the battery pack.

A spark – the second necessary factor in a gasoline fire – is not necessary for a conflagration.

Expect something else, too.

Expect your insurance – both car and home – to increase, even if you do not own an EV or park one anywhere near your home. The costs generated by those who do own them will be transferred over to you, just the same as the cost of throwing away an otherwise-repairable car that is an economic throw-away due to the cost of replacing multiple air bags relative to the value of the car, itself, is already reflected in the costs were forced to pay for the insurance we’re required to buy.

In addition to what we’re (effectively) forced to buy when we buy a new car equipped with the air bags we’re required to buy as part of the deal. It’s interesting to note that these “safety” devices also have a tendency to catch fire spontaneously – as when their “inflator” system spontaneously triggers and the bag blows up in the victim’s face.

The air bag risk can be reduced but never eliminated. Just the same as regards EV battery pack spontaneous combustion.

It is interesting that such risks are considered acceptable by the very same people who often insist that any risk they regard as “too risky” must be ameliorated by any means they say necessary, no matter how much it costs.

And no matter how little the gain.

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33   Tenpoundbass   2024 Jan 25, 5:35am  

I had an auto mechanic saying he's all for every car being electric one day.
By time I told him all of the reasons why they wont be, he was convinced otherwise. He tried to stop me, thinking the only negative thing I was going to say, is how hard the rare earth materials are to come by. But that one is the last one on my list. As we have 10 times more than China does, but it's locked up in National Parks like Yellow Stone.

It's a nice technology, that if it wasn't being shoe horned, it would be much more stable and practical. If you like electric cars, then you should get an electric car. They should not be subsidized, nor should every model be a spying smart luxury car.

The day electric cars become the only means, driving will no longer be a privilege but a class. A class that most people wont be a part of. They will dictate who gets to have or not have a car.
34   socal2   2024 Jan 25, 5:15pm  

Tenpoundbass says

It's a nice technology, that if it wasn't being shoe horned, it would be much more stable and practical. If you like electric cars, then you should get an electric car. They should not be subsidized, nor should every model be a spying smart luxury car.


No disagreement there.
35   zzyzzx   2024 Jan 26, 9:13am  

WookieMan says

I keep my golf cart parked outside, 20' from the house at closest. If it burns all I can do is let the battery burn the son of a bitch. Oh well. Better than my house and I technically wouldn't even need to call the fire department. I know the risk with an electric cart.


Swap out the lithium batteries for AGM batteries.
36   Eric Holder   2024 Jan 26, 11:06am  

zzyzzx says

WookieMan says


I keep my golf cart parked outside, 20' from the house at closest. If it burns all I can do is let the battery burn the son of a bitch. Oh well. Better than my house and I technically wouldn't even need to call the fire department. I know the risk with an electric cart.


Swap out the lithium batteries for AGM batteries.


He's just invested shitload of money into the lithiums. Swapping them again would be imprudent.
38   RWSGFY   2024 Jan 29, 3:39pm  

UkraineIsFucked says

https://realclearwire.com/articles/2024/01/28/so_many_problems_continue_to_plague_the_ev_industry_1007949.html


Of course 430mpg is baloney, because when renting Teslas my calculated fuel price per mile came out at 16 cents while Camry Hybrid was 13 cents per mile in fuel only. Camry Hybrid is not rated 400+ mpg, is it?
39   DOGEWontAmountToShit   2024 Feb 7, 8:57am  

EVs are just a niche market.

(Tesla Fluffers HATE when this FACT is presented)

November, nearly 3,900 automobile dealers across the country sent a letter to President Biden telling him that EV demand is “not keeping up with the large influx of BEVs arriving at our dealerships prompted by the current regulations. BEVs are stacking up on our lots." They continued, saying EVs are “not selling nearly as fast as they are arriving at our dealerships.”

As I explained in the written testimony I submitted to the Senate Energy and Natural Resources Committee last month, EVs have always been a niche-market product, not a mass-market one. And that niche market is dominated by wealthy, white, male, liberal voters who live in a handful of heavily Democratic cities and counties.
Further, that niche market is primarily defined by class and ideology. Some 57% of EV owners earn more than $100,000 annually, 75% are male, and 87% are white. Last March, Gallup reported, “a substantial majority of Republicans, 71%, say they would not consider owning an electric vehicle.”

Last October, researchers at the University of California, Berkeley, released a remarkable study that found “counties with affluent left-leaning cities” like Cambridge, San Francisco, and Seattle “play a disproportionately large role in driving the entire national increase in EV adoption.” The researchers found that over the past decade, about half of all the EVs sold in the U.S. were sold in the most heavily Democratic counties in the country. The summary of the study deserves quoting at length:
The prospect for EVs as a climate change solution hinges on their widespread adoption across the political spectrum. In this paper, we use detailed county-level data on new vehicle registrations from 2012-2022 to measure the degree to which EV adoption is concentrated in the most left-leaning U.S. counties. The results point to a strong and enduring correlation between political ideology and U.S. EV adoption. During our time period about half of all EVs went to the 10% most Democratic counties, and about one-third went to the top 5%. There is relatively little evidence that this correlation has decreased over time, and even some specifications that point to increasing correlation. The results suggest that it may be harder than previously believed to reach high levels of U.S. EV adoption.” (Emphasis added.)

Ford and the other big automakers have been spending billions of dollars to cater to the whims of a tiny segment of the overall car market — a segment heavily concentrated in a handful of liberal counties. That’s a lousy business strategy. But it is an even worse strategy for federal policymakers who must be responsive to the transportation needs of every American, not just those who live in liberal cities and large, wealthy states

In October, the chairman of Toyota Motor Corporation, Akio Toyoda, gloated about his company’s success with hybrids and the friction other automakers face in the EV business. Toyoda said automakers are "finally seeing reality" about all-electric cars. Unfortunately for Ford and its shareholders, finally seeing reality comes with multi-billion-dollar losses.

A final note: Ford’s EV sales in January fell by 11% compared to the same period last year. There’s more carnage ahead for FoMoCo.


https://robertbryce.substack.com/p/ford-lost-47b-on-evs-last-year-or
40   GNL   2024 Feb 7, 8:12pm  

https://www.theburningplatform.com/2024/02/07/the-plunge-begins/

"Hertz just shot off the flares. It will not be “fully electrified” by 2024 – as it had said it would be back in 2020. It is already much less “electrified.” Hertz may have closed the water tight doors just in time."
41   AD   2024 Feb 8, 12:13am  

I think Tesla will still be standing, but as posted on Patrick.net, the major automakers are downsizing their EV manufacturing.

I think Tesla is going to be improving steadily such as providing up to 600 miles range for even the cheapest of its EV's, the Tesla 3. And this will happen with Tesla still using lithium batteries.

I read Toyota and Volkwagen are going the hydrogen fuel cell route (not lithium batteries) for their EV's.
42   WookieMan   2024 Feb 8, 3:29am  

Eric Holder says

He's just invested shitload of money into the lithiums. Swapping them again would be imprudent.

This is correct. Free cart and AGM batteries weren't a ton cheaper. So the expense was kind of nothing. It's quick with less weight. I can zip around town for pennies. It's nice during the warmer months to get around to the grocery store, gas station and neighbors. Still use it to get the mail in winter at our CBU. I like being outside and fresh air.

I'll trash EV's all day for various reasons. They're cheaper on paper. The government is coming for them though. You can't use the roads for free basically. I don't know the rates everywhere, but isn't is something like 20¢/gallon in most places for gas? It's nothing, but I'll save $200/yr not driving my cart around town. 10 year warranty on the battery.

I've got two lots 3 blocks away. So much easier to use the cart to get there. Still have to drive the car and mower over there, but we'e gonna start our garden of the future over there now as we build. It's going to be big. So a daily trip is easy with the cart.
44   richwicks   2024 Mar 31, 12:54am  

AD says

I read Toyota and Volkwagen are going the hydrogen fuel cell route (not lithium batteries) for their EV's.


I doubt this. Hydrogen fuel cells are a very poor way to store energy. First, it's not made by cracking water into oxygen and hydrogen, it's using steam reformation where natural gas is turned into CO2 and Hydrogen in a process. Second, hydrogen is expensive. Third, it's freaking hard to store, that stuff is reactive, very reactive. Put it under pressure on a steel cylinder, and that cylinder will get brittle in time.

Using electrolysis to break water into hydrogen and oxygen seems like a good idea, until you realize it's only 50% efficient. Hydrogen has GREAT energy density in terms of kg/joule - better than just about anything, but it's bulky because it's a large molecule, and as I said, highly reactive so hard to store.

Another problem is compressing it, THAT takes a lot of energy as well. It's like 5 times more expensive than gas per unit of energy as well.
45   DOGEWontAmountToShit   2024 Mar 31, 7:59am  

richwicks says

Put it under pressure on a steel cylinder, and that cylinder will get brittle in time.


And the little fucker Hydrogen atoms can slip through the steel molecules. So, leakage losses.
46   HeadSet   2024 Mar 31, 8:49am  

richwicks says

Hydrogen has GREAT energy density in terms of kg/joule - better than just about anything, but it's bulky because it's a large molecule

?? Isn't hydrogen the smallest possible molecule? An H2 molecule has only 2 hydrogen atoms, each with only one proton and one electron.
47   Tenpoundbass   2024 Mar 31, 9:33am  

EV enthusiasts : Of Course EVs will be expense at first! But the idea is for everyone to adopt them so the price will eventually come down. I don't mind being an early adopter.

Also EV enthusiasts : What the fuck my $65K EV is now only worth $20K

UkraineIsTotallyFucked says





48   richwicks   2024 Mar 31, 10:39am  

HeadSet says

richwicks says


Hydrogen has GREAT energy density in terms of kg/joule - better than just about anything, but it's bulky because it's a large molecule

?? Isn't hydrogen the smallest possible molecule? An H2 molecule has only 2 hydrogen atoms, each with only one proton and one electron.


Nope, it's got the lowest density of any molecule or atom, that's why it floats. It floats better than helium does, but its highly reactive.

You've seen the periodic table:



On the left, atoms are as big as they can be, and they get smaller going to the right, but they explode in size on the far right. On the far right are the noble. I think only helium is more dense than the element on the far right.

Basically, every element has one more proton than the element preceding it. Picks up neutrons as well, so as you move down, it gets denser and denser.

A chemist or a physicist can explain why better than I can.
49   DOGEWontAmountToShit   2024 Mar 31, 11:19am  

Hydrogen's reactivity IS WHERE the energy comes from. Oxidation in particular.
50   richwicks   2024 Mar 31, 11:26am  

UkraineIsTotallyFucked says

Hydrogen's reactivity IS WHERE the energy comes from. Oxidation in particular.


Sure, but it's damned reactive. It makes metal brittle over time, so how do you contain the damned stuff?

It sure seemed like a good idea back when I was a kid to use hydrogen to store excess electricity for later use, but it turns out to be a terrible way of doing it
51   RWSGFY   2024 Mar 31, 8:21pm  

AD says


I think Tesla will still be standing, but as posted on Patrick.net, the major automakers are downsizing their EV manufacturing.

I think Tesla is going to be improving steadily such as providing up to 600 miles range for even the cheapest of its EV's, the Tesla 3. And this will happen with Tesla still using lithium batteries.

I read Toyota and Volkwagen are going the hydrogen fuel cell route (not lithium batteries) for their EV's.


Toyota is into 2nd gen
of their H2 fuel cell cars and it's not looking good: they are giving $22-40K discount on every new one and throw in $15K fuel card. Even used ones come with the card. There is a 2019 Mirai with 30K miles on the clock being sold as CPO for $9K at the local dealer and it comes with a $15K card. And it's eligible for $4K in Fed tax rebates plus whatever is CA giving out ($2K?).

BTW, at current hydrogen fuel prices $15K gives you ~30K miles.
52   WookieMan   2024 Apr 1, 3:04am  

Love or hate the car, but Toyota did get it right with the Prius. Not practical for my uses, but hybrids were and are the future. You need gas. That's undeniable. You cannot charge a battery quickly.

Wife is about to drive down to St. Louis area. She'd have to stop and charge and waste an hour to finish the trip. She grosses $913/hr in sales likely this year. 365 days, every hour. That hour charging cost $900. Who cares if it's free? That would be $60 in gas and maybe $30 in time. You're talking a $700-800 difference in time savings. AND you paid more for the car than her SUV. An EV would easily cost my family $10k more than an ICE. So maybe I'm biased.

I don't get the argument over this. EV's are shit unless you drive 10-20 miles a day and charge at home. I guess my opinion is based off our driving habits. No EV on the market would remotely work for us without losing tons of money.
54   socal2   2024 Apr 2, 6:32pm  

WookieMan says

EV's are shit unless you drive 10-20 miles a day and charge at home.


That is over 60% of the available US car market!

Tesla can't be everything for everyone, but the available US market is plenty big.

Hybrids are still retarded with twice the complexity and twice the maintenance and things to go wrong compared to straight up BEV's - they are not much cheaper and you don't get the massive performance of a Tesla. I don't drive Tesla's to save gas or be environmental. I drive them because they are the most powerful and advanced car I can afford. How is that not understandable? I can't afford a comparable Porsche, BMW, Mercedes or Audi.

I spend alot of time driving - life's too short to drive something boring or weak if you have some options.
55   DOGEWontAmountToShit   2024 Apr 2, 7:40pm  

socal2 says

That is over 60% of the available US car market!

Tesla can't be everything for everyone, but the available US market is plenty big.

Hybrids are still retarded with twice the complexity and twice the maintenance and things to go wrong compared to straight up BEV's - they are not much cheaper and you don't get the massive performance of a Tesla. I don't drive Tesla's to save gas or be environmental. I drive them because they are the most powerful and advanced car I can afford. How is that not understandable? I can't afford a comparable Porsche, BMW, Mercedes or Audi.

I spend alot of time driving - life's too short to drive something boring or weak if you have some options.



57   WookieMan   2024 Jul 25, 1:22am  

socal2 says

That is over 60% of the available US car market!

Tesla can't be everything for everyone, but the available US market is plenty big.

You live in CA. Where I live in IL I'd be constantly worried about running out of juice. I'm going to Wisconsin tomorrow and would need to charge on the way up making the trip 30 minutes longer and then having to use a friends electric to charge.

Go to Bozeman, MT and go for a hike in an EV. Enjoy being stranded. It's an hour in mountains one way and there's nothing in range to charge. You're climbing from 4k to 9k feet to get to a good hike or activity. Fishing. Throw in rugged roads.

CA is a big state. Mostly urban. EV's don't work in most of the country once you factor in cold weather. EV lovers need to get out of their bubble.
58   socal2   2024 Jul 25, 8:38am  

WookieMan says

You live in CA. Where I live in IL I'd be constantly worried about running out of juice. I'm going to Wisconsin tomorrow and would need to charge on the way up making the trip 30 minutes longer and then having to use a friends electric to charge.


I just got back from a week vacation visiting relatives in Michigan, Ohio and Indiana. I rented a GMC (Arcadia?) and we drove over 800 miles. Alot of it was on back country roads and away from the freeways. But I ran my route through Tesla's navigation and there were still plenty of Tesla Superchargers that would make the drive totally easy.

The GMC didn't even have adaptive cruise control......let alone lane assist. It was tiring and less enjoyable to have to manually drive all 800 miles. But it did have a big gas tank and we only had to fill up a few times.


59   GNL   2024 Jul 25, 11:44am  

You mean you didn’t take your cyber truck?
60   socal2   2024 Jul 25, 12:48pm  

GNL says

You mean you didn’t take your cyber truck?


Can't afford one yet.
61   RWSGFY   2024 Jul 25, 1:07pm  

Fun fact: Hertz didn't offer a single EV at their Indianspolis airport location when I visited last spring.
62   GNL   2024 Jul 25, 1:12pm  

socal2 says

GNL says


You mean you didn’t take your cyber truck?


Can't afford one yet.

Hmm, my bad. I was sure you were the one telling us that you bought one.
63   DOGEWontAmountToShit   2024 Aug 17, 9:23pm  

Consumer Reports video on Tesla:

64   HeadSet   2024 Aug 18, 7:12am  

DemocratsAreTotallyFucked says

Consumer Reports video on Tesla:



A Tesla's charge port is on the side of the car. Maybe she is thinking of the Buicks long ago that had the gas filler tube under the license plate. Just get behind the car, pull down the cover (license plate) stick in the tube and pump in the fluid.
65   WookieMan   2024 Aug 18, 9:05am  

HeadSet says

A Tesla's charge port is on the side of the car. Maybe she is thinking of the Buicks long ago that had the gas filler tube under the license plate. Just get behind the car, pull down the cover (license plate) stick in the tube and pump in the fluid.

Besides the annoying tat sleeve, she's not wrong about Tesla. They're gay looking cars. The Cyber Truck is like the Pontiac Aztek. The only reason I'd get a cyber truck is as an investment. In 20-30 when it's "vintage" it will be worth a ton because they will stop production of them in the next 5 years after the market is saturated.

I'll beat the horse dead on this topic, but until they get a full sized SUV with range, I'll never buy one. Even then I'm not gonna fork over the likely $150k price tag it would require. And I don't have the patience to sit at a charging station for 30 minutes to get 200 more miles.
66   DOGEWontAmountToShit   2024 Aug 18, 9:39am  

HeadSet says


A Tesla's charge port is on the side of the car


Looks to be in the back of the car to me. That's sure as hell not the front or middle. But not too far from where gasoline pumps go in ICE cars, too.


67   WookieMan   2024 Aug 18, 10:04am  

DemocratsAreTotallyFucked says

Looks to be in the back of the car to me. That's sure as hell not the front or middle. But not too far from where gasoline pumps go in ICE cars, too.

Does it matter really? I know I wouldn't be caught driving that. What can it do? Haul a family of 4 to the local Chili's for dinner and then you have to plug it in at night. Sign me up.... not.

I probably live different than most users here is my guess. We do things with our vehicles. I tow at least twice a week. Regardless of the charging plug, what use is that car? Seriously. I'll take this 10 out of 10 times https://www.toyota.com/sequoia/

Has a 3rd row. ~9k towing capacity. Can fit 8. 400 miles on gas that takes 5 minutes to fill up tops. Is $30-40k cheaper than a Cyber Truck. So I've saved 6-8 years of gas and insurance already. I really want someone to change my mind on EV's. I don't want self driving. EV's cost more by 20% at least, so you're not saving money there. What is the point?

No one anywhere has sold me on them remotely. I have friends that have them and said it was a midlife crisis purchase and they just wanted one. No different than a corvette or some other sports car. I'm waiting for someone to come up with a logical reason to drop $20k more on a car than necessary.
68   RWSGFY   2024 Aug 18, 10:40am  

I find statements like "oh, it's such a grind to go to a gas station once a two or three weeks" or "it's so hellishly tiresome to drive 300 miles on an Indiana freeway w/o a dozen of driver aids" hilariously overblown. It's not and it's not. Maybe (and if) I'm 90 and in poor health, but not now. Thank God.
69   DOGEWontAmountToShit   2024 Sep 20, 10:31am  

August EV sales in Germany were down 69% y-o-y, and down 44% across the EU.

Wonder what they are for the US.
70   Eric Holder   2024 Sep 20, 1:59pm  

Zee Germanz like to drive fast on the Authobahn and EVs are no bueno for that.
71   HeadSet   2024 Sep 20, 2:20pm  

Eric Holder says

Zee Germanz like to drive fast on the Authobahn and EVs are no bueno for that.

?? Won't a Model S hold its own against Porshe, et al?
72   socal2   2024 Sep 20, 2:46pm  

HeadSet says

?? Won't a Model S hold its own against Porshe, et al?


A Model S Plaid or Model 3 Ludicrous will smoke a Porsche and every other car on the road less than $250,000. Hell - my middle to low trim Model Y will smoke 98% of the cars on the road.

Germany's economy is tanking due to sky high energy prices due to their idiocy of dismantling their nuke plants and the war in Ukraine impacting their ability to get cheaper gas from Russia.

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