1
0

All About Wealth Disparity


 invite response                
2007 Apr 21, 8:43am   30,315 views  234 comments

by HARM   ➕follow (0)   💰tip   ignore  

One of the topics that has kept coming up over the 2 years of this blog's existence is wealth and income disparity. It's pretty obvious from a number of different sources and metrics that --after heading down for several generations-- it's been going up over the past 35 years or so in the U.S. In fact the U.S. is now closer to China or Iran in terms of wealth distribution (as measured by the Gini Coefficient) than Canada or Western Europe.

Some of the regulars here (myself included) view this as an alarming trend, with some disturbing implications, such as:
  • A gradually shrinking middle class (however one chooses to define that), and increasingly bifurcated economy/society.

  • Less overall economic/social mobility (fewer opportunities for ambitious, intelligent poor people to join the ranks of the middle class, or move from middle to wealthy class).

  • Potential for greater social/political unrest, as wealth disparity approaches Third-world levels (What good is it to be "middle class" or wealthy, if it means having to live in a heavily fortified compound that you cannot leave without bringing along a small private army to protect you, a-la Mexico or Colombia?).

  • The devolution of our economy, from "free market" capitalism, based (at least somewhat) on the concepts of rule-of-law, meritocracy, competition and personal responsibility, to one based more on kleptocracy, plutocracy, corruption, and political connections.

  • The growing phenomenon of "Privatize Profits, Socialize Risks", where politically well connected big businesses and de-facto cartels attempt to insulate themselves from competition, and seek to transfer the consequences of their own bad financial decisions to taxpayers, via federal laws, subsidies and bailouts.


  • Some of our Patrick.net regulars appear to think this may be a symptom of an inevitable mega-trend that no amount of social engineering or tax redistribution can stop. Some even consider the emergence of a large, prosperous middle class as a historical aberration, that we are now in the process of "correcting". Peter P has often commented that, "no matter how you redistribute wealth, it always ends up in the same hands". And there may be validity to this view: consider the spectacular rise and fall of Communism in the Twentieth Century. There is also the notion that our economy has progressed to the point where wealth disparity is unlikely to lead to the kinds of social/political unrest it has in the past (French, Russian Revolutions, etc.), because for the most part, citizens' basic physical needs are still being met. A.k.a., the "bread and circuses" argument (see Maslow's hierarchy of needs).

    The big questions for me are:

    1) Is the decline of the middle class and bifurcation of the U.S. economy an inevitable result of macro-economic and historical forces beyond our ability to influence (such as global wage arbitrage and the transition from being an industrial power to a primarily service-based economy)?

    2) Is it theoretically possible to reverse this trend through social/economic policies, and if so, how? Is Different Sean-style socialism the only way? (see "How does one regulate 'well'?")

    3) If such reforms are theoretically possible, are they practically feasible? (i.e., is it realistic to assume political opposition from entrenched special interests can ever be overcome?)

    Discuss, enjoy...

    HARM

    « First        Comments 199 - 234 of 234        Search these comments

    199   HARM   2007 Apr 23, 11:17am  

    @Malcolm,

    100% agree. It's nuts that in the richest country on earth, you can be bankrupted for getting sick or injured.

    201   Malcolm   2007 Apr 23, 1:03pm  

    BAP, I favor medical savings accounts with insurance just for the catastrophic stuff. That to me strikes some sort of balance, and it forces people to shop and save.

    202   Peter P   2007 Apr 23, 3:05pm  

    I favor medical savings accounts with insurance just for the catastrophic stuff.

    I agree. That is a good balance. But as usual, the avocates will cry foul because they think the system is a "regressive tax."

    I do not oppose universal health care but:

    1. Employers should not have to bear all the costs. This will put a lot of small/medium companies out of business.

    2. There needs to be dramatic welfare reforms.

    203   Jimbo   2007 Apr 23, 4:36pm  

    The city of Tijuana Mexico had over 300 murders last year. That’s an unsafe city, picking out the projects of Compton to try to draw a parallel is intellectually dishonest.

    Sorry, you are just wrong. What percentage of the murders in San Francisco last year happened in the Hunter' Point/Bayview neighborhood? Bayview-Hunters Point has an infant mortality rate comparable to Bulgaria or Jamaica.

    "A lot of these kids don't get to go out of their houses at all when they get home after school because of the danger," said Tareyton Russ, principal of Willie Brown Academy elementary school, which draws children from the area with the greatest child population increase. "And that's the best thing for them in a lot of cases."

    Overall San Francisco had 96 murder in 2005 and 25 of them were in Bayview. 25 out of a population of 10,000 residents is a murder rate of around .25%. This has been constant for the last few years. And Bayview is not even as rough as many other poor neighborhoods. The Tijuana population is 1.6M and if it had 300 murders as you state, then the murder rate is .018%, less than 1/10th that of Bayview!

    25M Americans used soup kitchens or food banks last year. This is hardly a nation that is feeding its poor well. And people starve in America all the time, granted most of them (all of them?) are mentally ill, but 38M Americans are "food insecure" meaning they one paycheck away from standing in the soup kitchen line.

    Just because you don't know any poor people doesn't mean that it isn't dangerous and difficult to be poor in America.

    204   Jimbo   2007 Apr 23, 5:00pm  

    Oh, by the way, the figures for Baghdad are 1800 civilian deaths a month, according to the Baghdad government. That works out to 22k a year, in a population of 9M, that is .25%, the same as Bayview-Hunter's Point.

    205   Different Sean   2007 Apr 23, 8:02pm  

    Before you put up a bunch of poop DS, you may want to visit any emergency clinic or ward in Mexifornia and take a head-count of three main things: “Of those of you without proper insurance…. 1) Who’s an illegal invader?, 2) Who is on some form of state aid?, 3) Who has illegal drugs in their system?.” Ask them three questions and 90% of the “uninsured” will be counted in any Mexifornia medical place.

    well, your health care system is currently ranked 37th in the world for quality, based on the insurance system. the reason is probably that enough lame-brained americans like bap think enough crazy thoughts that it will never be reformed in line with the preceding 36 countries to improve the quality. the HMOs and big pharma need lots of people like bap to keep the current system chugging along nicely, thank you very much....

    why not visit some other country and see how it works, bap -- hilary clinton did... it costs half as much in some countries to deliver better quality care with better universal outcomes than in the US through a tax-based citizenship guarantee system... and bap wants to make it *more* regressive... maybe slip to 100th or so, in line with sierra leone...

    MEDICAL EMERGENCY / Neglected for a decade, health care is metastasizing into a new crisis / Live sicker, die younger: The plight of the uninsured

    206   Different Sean   2007 Apr 23, 8:05pm  

    you should also read the bible more to help you get away from those commie-lib notions like 'love thy neighbor' -- tough love obviously works best... and the tougher the better... hanging, drawing and quartering is the toughest love of all...

    207   Peter P   2007 Apr 24, 4:06am  

    well, your health care system is currently ranked 37th in the world for quality, based on the insurance system.

    That is way better than median! I think there are more than 150 countries in the world. :)

    208   Peter P   2007 Apr 24, 4:11am  

    I definitely think we need to reform the cost structure in the health care system. At the present level, there is no hope of universal health care getting political acceptance.

    Sean, unlike in other countries, many liberals (not all, I know many good-hearted liberals too) here just want to use other people's many to pay for what they think should be free. They will cry for more welfare but they will refuse to pay an extra dime.

    209   Tesh   2007 Apr 24, 5:14am  

    Answering the original thought about income disparity, I figure there's no possible way that anyone, regardless of what you do for society (the measure I use for salary calculation), is worth a hundred-plus times more than anyone else. I figure at most a scaling factor of three to five. Whether that means minimum and maximum wage (or other) systemic legislation or genetically engineering greed out of the race, I'm not sure.

    210   Peter P   2007 Apr 24, 5:54am  

    I figure there’s no possible way that anyone, regardless of what you do for society (the measure I use for salary calculation), is worth a hundred-plus times more than anyone else. I figure at most a scaling factor of three to five.

    Again, "worth" is not a meaningful word. The only question: whether having the disparity is good for the society as a whole.

    211   Tesh   2007 Apr 24, 6:40am  

    How about this, then. There is no contribution that an individual can make that would cause such an impact on society that their compensation should be astronomically larger than anyone else.

    And no, the disparity is not "good" (if that word has any meaning) for society. It breeds hatred, envy, lust and pride. If those mean anything.

    212   LowlySmartRenter   2007 Apr 24, 6:53am  

    Agreed Tesh.

    I'm reminded of the disenfranchised young men in polygamous communities. There we see the results of economic disparity, artificially forced by polygamy. These young men can never have even one wife, and of course, no children. They are left to live on the outskirts of town without any means for or access to economic growth. They are ripe for terrorists groups, looking for young men who have nothing to live for, nothing to lose.

    It's a dire example of how disparity can play out. I'd prefer a society where the rungs of the ladder are maintained, so that anyone can climb (or fall) freely. Knock out the middle rungs and we create a subculture of throw aways.

    213   Malcolm   2007 Apr 24, 10:23am  

    Hi Jimbo,
    Your points are very well taken, and at least paint a picture of the very worst in this country. Your stats are good, I would point out again, that yes you can go to the very worst neighborhoods and get a stat equal to a war torn country's overall rate. Iraq has some safe, and some very unsafe areas as compared to a gang infested neighborhood. As a society it should be a goal to have no areas left like this, but you have to eventually conceed that these situations are so small that statistically they aren't significant, and perpetuate an exageration when these small hot spots are held up as the example of what a typical poor neighborhood in America is like.

    214   LowlySmartRenter   2007 Apr 25, 3:38am  

    "Here's what's really going on behind closed doors in affluent America"

    http://tinyurl.com/27rkhb

    215   Jimbo   2007 Apr 25, 10:52am  

    Fair enough, not everyone lives in such dangerous neighborhoods, but the poor in America live lives that are vastly more dangerous than the poor in any other 1st world country. Sure, it is better than Tijuana, but that is hardly something to aspire to.

    The poor in America generally are fed, generally are housed and live in less violent regions that most of the world's poor and this is something to recognize. But compared to other developed nations, we are doing badly, that is my point.

    216   Tesh   2007 Apr 26, 3:09am  

    Cable TV and cell phones are the new drugs of choice, Bap; the new addition to the cigarette and beer stable. If people knew how to prioritize their money (and stifle addictions), things would be different.

    217   anniecoyote   2007 Apr 26, 3:18am  

    Harm,

    I live in Bucarmanga, in the state of Santander. Been pretty much all over the country...not the jungles or southern half however. Lots of time in Bogota. I have been there 1 1/2 years. My Colombian husband and I bring US & European paragliding tourists there to fly and see the country. Actually, at this moment, I am back in California for about a month, to visit family and do some business.

    218   Tesh   2007 Apr 26, 9:06am  

    He who makes the laws? He who has the most money to buy the courts?
    :shrug:

    Or are we talking about ultimate laws of theology and such, because any time these things are left to people, they will be botched.

    219   Tesh   2007 Apr 27, 2:16am  

    Not unnoticed, nor ungrieved, Sid. It's one of the biggest mistakes in US history.

    220   Patrick   2024 May 22, 2:55pm  

    HARM says

    There is also the notion that our economy has progressed to the point where wealth disparity is unlikely to lead to the kinds of social/political unrest it has in the past (French, Russian Revolutions, etc.), because for the most part, citizens' basic physical needs are still being met. A.k.a., the "bread and circuses" argument




    221   AmericanKulak   2024 May 22, 4:52pm  

    I have a feeling that Sportsball is really on the decline, esp. with the younger generations.
    224   GNL   2024 Sep 3, 9:18pm  

    Patrick says





    Only 447,000?
    225   DOGEWontAmountToShit   2024 Sep 3, 9:29pm  

    It's the Cantillon Effect, pure and simple. And it has been going on since we left the gold standard:

    https://wtfhappenedin1971.com/
    226   WookieMan   2024 Sep 3, 9:35pm  

    AmericanKulak says

    I have a feeling that Sportsball is really on the decline, esp. with the younger generations.

    Too much to do. All you have is the the NBA, MLB, NHL, NFL and throw in Tennis and golf I guess? Everyone knows they aren't gonna make it statistically, so less interest. My kids are done with baseball. My oldest would rather play volleyball. Golf. The others are good with golf, track, soccer, etc.

    Football is going away. Too much brain damage. The leagues are just bad now. They'll claim the talent is better. There's no best ever coming up in any of the major professional sports right now. Sports betting also tainted the waters. That's why individual sports are going to beat out team sports. Easy as can be for one person to throw a team game. Even collegiate level. Kickers, goalies, pitchers, quarterback, etc. You can have an off day/night and make $100k or whatever you wanted to bet. Just have someone else make the bet and you give them a 20% cut.

    There's no point in golf or tennis. They were smart in those leagues. You make massive money when you win that it's not worth throwing a match or tournament. You get to choose your sponsors.

    I'd rather play frisbee golf, float a river, ice fish, go to a concert, barbecue, trivia at a bar, ping pong, hike, camp, have a fire, shoot, yard games, sand volley ball, watch stuff and learn new skills (on a pickling binge now), vacation, on and on and on. I have lost all interest in watching sports or TV in general. They had to legalize the gambling and make fantasy a big thing. I don't have time for that shit and I don't work many hours. I let my buddies know my take on 5 hour fantasy drafts. You're a loser, go work or do something fun.

    Marriage isn't all it's cracked up to be, but I'm also not a loser that no one would settle down with. Work together and create a team. Not sure I fall in the "younger" element. I was extremely athletic. All state twice. I'm just done having an interest in the major sport leagues. It's all fixed.
    227   AD   2024 Sep 3, 10:47pm  

    WookieMan says

    AmericanKulak says

    I have a feeling that Sportsball is really on the decline, esp. with the younger generations.

    Too much to do. All you have is the the NBA, MLB, NHL, NFL and throw in Tennis and golf I guess? Everyone knows they aren't gonna make it statistically, so less interest. My kids are done with baseball. My oldest would rather play volleyball. Golf. The others are good with golf, track, soccer, etc.

    Football is going away. Too much brain damage.


    Sports tourism (softball, soccer, baseball and lacrosse tournaments) is becoming the rage in Panama City Beach, especially at the newly built Panama City Beach Sports Complex.

    Its a tourism magnet from Tennessee and Georgia rich white suburbs as they come down for the sports tournament and then spend a few days on the beach after it.

    Now the county's tourist development council is building an indoor arena next to the sports complex for multi use including volleyball and basketball tournaments, trade shows / conventions, indoor flea market and emergency operations center usage rated for at least 200 mile per hour winds.

    https://www.mypanhandle.com/news/local-news/bay-county/panama-city-beach/bay-co-tdc-pitches-new-41-million-indoor-sports-center/

    .
    228   WookieMan   2024 Sep 3, 11:04pm  

    AD says

    Sports tourism (softball, soccer, baseball and lacrosse tournaments) is becoming the rage in Panama City Beach, especially at the newly built Panama City Beach Sports Complex.

    Its a tourism magnet from Tennessee and Georgia rich white suburbs as they come down for the sports tournament and then spend a few days on the beach after it.

    Travel league shit from crazy parents. My SIL was just in Mobile, AL for football. From IL.... You're right though. These sport complexes are taking advantage of the morons that do travel leagues. If it wasn't for travel leagues, no one is going to Mobile, AL.

    Whole other thread should be made for it if you have kids. Short rant. Complete. Bull. Shit. NEVER put your kids in this stuff or spend the money. I can take all 5 of our family members to the Caribbean, Europe, etc. for the price and travel of these fucking leagues for children that aren't even that good.

    I'd rather take the kids to PCB and just enjoy the beach and do some local activities. Again, I'm athletic, still kind of am, but at some point experiences are better than sports. I hate the jock mentality. I was smoking pot, drinking and almost winning state championships in high school. These parents pay $4-6k for these travel leagues. I don't need to see them play. I can just look at them and tell the parent to not waste the time and money. I know a loser athletically when I see them. They don't even have to be playing. Hence why I don't coach. Macho dads that thought they were good as a kid get in may face, guess what. They might die. So I don't coach.
    231   GNL   2024 Sep 7, 6:36pm  

    The bottom 50% don’t own squat.
    232   WookieMan   2024 Sep 7, 7:01pm  

    GNL says

    The bottom 50% don’t own squat.

    Own or pay. Getting into tax prep mode already. We'll be $40k deep this year I think. Withdrawn as a W-2 employee so we usually never owe and don't take all our exemptions. Loan to the cock sucking government. I don't want to owe though, especially right now. Need to be $150-200k liquid cash.

    The bottom 50% is true. It grinds my nutts when people talk about taxes. I know their pay. I'm nice about it. But I know you paid nothing into the system, yet bitch about paying no taxes. We need better high school education on economics. People that think they're paying taxes have no clue they're not.
    234   WookieMan   2024 Dec 12, 2:17pm  

    zzyzzx says





    My fucking sister brought dad out during Thanksgiving. I got her joke it was just awkward. Really didn't need to eat knowing my fathers remains were sitting right there. 90% sure she was trolling me. Bitch. I called her that too. It wasn't about the ashes, she knew I hated him.

    It's just like, we gotta being doing this now? He's the last person I had any thanks for.

    « First        Comments 199 - 234 of 234        Search these comments

    Please register to comment:

    api   best comments   contact   latest images   memes   one year ago   random   suggestions   gaiste