patrick.net

Anyone who goes to a realtor for legal advice should get his/her head checked. Anyone who can’t download a form from the internet should pay an attorney to represent them in the transaction, and should expect to pay substantially less than 6% of a listing to do so.

All the realtor does is find a buyer, period. Downloading a form or hiring an attorney is part of closing, nothing to do with finding a buyer in the first place. You will still need the form, title company or lawyer whether you use a realtor or not.

To get rid of realtors, you would have to find a way for sellers to find buyers. The trick would be to get Joe Public to at least look at For Sale by Owner instead of just calling a realtor by reflex when he is intereted in a house.

I have sold 5 houses over the last few years. I tried FSBO on all of them, but was only able to sell one without using a realtor. One house, a 1600ft 4 bed 1car, was sold in 2003. I did the FSBO bit with flyers, newpaper ads, sign, and military housing referral. All I got for a month was realtors looking to list, lookie loos, and absurd lowballs. I finally listed with a discount broker at 4%, raised the asking price to cover most of the commission, and the house ended up with multiple offers just hours after she typed it in. In 2003, houses commonly got multiple offers, so why so hard to sell FSBO? Because all the serious buyers call a realtor first.

I would love to have a Craigs List or similar that would be sufficient to attract buyers. But how do you convince Joe to look directly intead of using a agent to drive him around and hold his hand for "free?"

More & more people are hooked into the internet. There are fsbo sites that come up in area searches, and there are the tried & true fsbo magazines at the supermarket. Things have changed dramatically over the past few years, even the attitudes toward realtors. More & more often people are choosing not to turn their hard earned money over to realtors.

It's an unfortunate necessity to pay a higher price to cover the commission if you're buying and they're selling thru a realtor - but these days they're dropping prices to meet the buyers.

Name-calling is what children do when they think they're losing an argument...thanks for staying true to your kind, there, Miss Elliemae...

I'm REALLY happy that my life is not reduced to this kind of witch-hunt -- picking on a tiny segment of people who work in the housing market, trying to blame SOMEONE for your problems...

My wife uses the internet to educate her clients, and allow them to optimize/customize their searches utilizing tools like ListingBook and other websites (most of the large firms have taken great advantage of the internet, and no longer just use the MLS), and she works in tandem with them to find exactly what they are looking for -- it's a partnership.

Also, we are not upside-down on OUR home (yes, our house IS a home, and we LOVE it that way), and have happily almost paid it off, just about 16 years early, thanks to Dave Ramsey and folks like him -- now I WOULD take constructive criticism from him...but he wouldn't call me names just because I disagreed with him.

Have fun in your little world, Elliemae...you can be a BIG fish in this little pond of yours here...I've spent all the time that I have here to show folks that, while LIFE may not be fair...people can CHOOSE to be...or not.

FAB wrote the definitive post on why "saving 3%" is not worth it (when there are much greater savings to be had). If you actually have your license (like FAB), or know what you are doing, the way to go is dual agency. Yes, you heard that right. As long as you know what you're doing, the dual agent is now beholden to you, the buyer, as they won't get their 6% commission if the house doesn't sell to YOU (at the price YOU want). Imagine that, they work for you now, instead of the seller...

I second EBGuy.

When I went to open houses, the realty agents were brimming with hope after learning that I don't have an agent. All of them offered to negotiate down the price for me, and some of them even told me the financial situation of the seller (divorced, need to sell).

The 3% savings is not really worth it if you can have someone working for YOU. A new neighbor of mine went dual agent with the seller's agent who argued down $200K on the house.

Realty agents do not necessarily work in buyer's or seller's favor. They amplify the advantages of buyer and seller, in a seller's market, they amplify the gain of a seller. However at the downturn, they amplify the bargain of the buyer. Realty agents care about transaction first, price second, they only pursue price when transaction is intact. They are willing to throw price under a bus if transaction is at risk.

Honestly I hate heavy furniture, really hate them to death. Have you tried moving one yourself?

IKEA is the best for me, disposable, easily assembled, and stylish. If I change my mind, I can easily dispose of them and get a new set, and not feel a heartache.

I inherited a bunch of heavy, sturdy furniture from the last homeowner, and I tell ya, they are ugly as hell, and it cost me $$$$$$$$$$ to get rid of them because the junk yards charge by weight. If I want to get rid of IKEA furniture, I can chop them up and stuff them into the trash bin over a few week. Not a single chance with those super heavy furniture.

Unless it is a piece made by some kind of master furniture maker with a signature at the back, or has a lasting style, I stay away as far as possible from those solid wood furniture. I like solid wood home, that I don't mind at all.

Realty agents do not necessarily work in buyer’s or seller’s favor. They amplify the advantages of buyer and seller, in a seller’s market, they amplify the gain of a seller. However at the downturn, they amplify the bargain of the buyer. Realty agents care about transaction first, price second, they only pursue price when transaction is intact. They are willing to throw price under a bus if transaction is at risk.

Excellent point. I think thats Elliemae's point as well. In other words, they look after their own interest(getting commission) first either at the cost of somebody else.

Lots of realtors I met drank their own kool-aid.

The most frequently repeated conversation goes like the follows:
Agent: Do you like the house?
Me: well, there are some issues, blah blah yada yada
Agent: I have another house, which I own that I want to sell that may fit your criteria
Me: really? is it your own home?
Agent: No, I am selling 3 investment properties, this is just one of them. But I may sell my residence if the price is good.

Realtors are sales people. They're hired by people who think they're necessary. They don't provide legal advice, they don't represent anyone except themselves. They drink koolaide that tells them they're marketing professionals (listing on the mls, big deal!) and that they are necessary to a home sale. But if you can drive around and find a home or look on the internet, they're not needed. So far as them being necessary to the seller, that's a load of crap. Their only loyalty is to themselves. They hold no magic key to any sale.

When fellatio pokes fun at me in his condescending little way, saying that I'm playing life and acting like a 12-year old it hurts my feelings and makes me cry. My tin-foil hat rusts and I worked hard to make it. I'M TELLING MY MOMMY AND SHE'LL SPANK YOU!

When fellatio pokes fun at me in his condescending little way, saying that I’m playing life and acting like a 12-year old it hurts my feelings and makes me cry. My tin-foil hat rusts and I worked hard to make it. I’M TELLING MY MOMMY AND SHE’LL SPANK YOU!

As well you should, he's so articulate and fantastic, you should think more like him, then maybe your Tin hat would be rust-proof. . .

Yeah.

...and I was expecting sexist comments about mom & spankings.

The only sexist thing about it is that mom did the spanking. Of course, dad should.

I was expecting more of the perverted type of comments - such as "what does mom look like?" or "oooooooooo, can't wait!" Even, "have mom call me next!" You guys are being way too kind, considering I left the door open for that one.

Oooh, you meant *sexy* comments. I was purely thinking about sexist ones.

The fact of the matter is there are some honest, hard-working real estate agents out there. But only a fool would say that there aren't quite a few agents that are only in it for the (THEIR) money and it has hurt the profession....and it has hurt quite a few buyers/sellers.
The profession is inherently crippled by its compensation system. The dark underside of capitalism is greed and there are many out there who will completely disregard their fiduciary responsibility to their clients in order to increase their own gains.
This profession is not unlike other professions that compensate by commission. Car salesman, mortgage brokers and financial "planners" are all in areas that suffer bad reputations due to the actions of many of their peers.
Does it mean all agents are untrustworthy? ABSOLUTELY NOT, but unfortunately the actions of a few dictate that we have to watch ALL agents closely to make sure we aren't being take advantage of by unscrupulous behavior.

Well said Bap33.

Realtors in the past had something to offer in that they had working knowledge of an area and were able to act as marketing agents by providing listing services and organizing open houses.

But with the advent of the internet, everyone has access to information, maps, copious online methods of performing your own listings as well as a wealth of data and forms for download whereby they can sell their own damn house.

Honestly folks, how difficult do you think it really is to sell a house? Is this something that requires copious amounts of schooling? (like what is needed to be an engineer, a doctor, a lawyer, etc)
Of course not. It is a simple SALE of an item! No different that selling a car, doing your own garage sale and so forth. There is absolutely NO need for a middle man. None.

Realtors will go the way of the dinosaur as a younger and more tech savvy generation realizes they are forking over hard earned cash to some douchebag that likes to label themselves as a 'pro'.

Oooh, you meant *sexy* comments. I was purely thinking about sexist ones.

I just had a Spinal Tap moment. :)

Diomedes say:
"Realtors will go the way of the dinosaur as a younger and more tech savvy generation realizes they are forking over hard earned cash to some douchebag that likes to label themselves as a ‘pro’."

Amen to that. Car salesmen work for the company that makes the cars, therefore have the corner on the market for that brand of product. If I choose to resell it, I can either go thru a car lot or sell it myself. It's common knowledge that if you trade-in your car, or sell it to a car lot, you lose money but possibly gain (minimal) convenience.

However, I own my home - and that means that I can sell it myself. A realtor no longer has the ability to put it on a lot (the mls) in order to get more traffic. The interweb takes care of that now.

From the front page of YouTube.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YH2w59H_kbU&feature=channel_page&feature=pyv&gclid=CPXam8-MmJsCFRNinAodXX8U_Q

It is really incredible to me that this sort of thing still flies.

...and yet another one! Note, the shill comments. This one showed up as an advertisement in the margins following a query that had nothing to do with housing!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g0RW0sZ71AI&feature=pyv&gclid=CJW39YeOmJsCFRWbnAod2mdbbQ

You'd think they'd spend a little more and get professional actors & spokesmen instead of the crappy ones they hired.

>>Oooh, you meant *sexy* comments. I was purely thinking about sexist on

>I just had a Spinal Tap moment.

Now this is getting too clever for me. Even Urban Dictionary does not define "Spinal Tap Moment". Searching......searching.... --ok, I think I got it.: "Moment of great embarrassment" (possibly related to a scene were heavy-metal band goes through airport security and gets exposed).
Well, enough with the lulz. I'm going to quit while I still can. Touche'.

@justme

"Now this is getting too clever for me. Even Urban Dictionary does not define “Spinal Tap Moment”. Searching……searching…. –ok, I think I got it.: “Moment of great embarrassment” (possibly related to a scene were heavy-metal band goes through airport security and gets exposed).
Well, enough with the lulz. I’m going to quit while I still can. Touche’."

It's not that difficult for things to get 'too clever' for you. I'd think you'd be used to that by now.

Sorry - there's a scene in the movie where the record company won't put out an album with a cover that has a woman on all fours wearing a black leather barely there outfit with a leash around her neck, and a man's hand shoving a glove into her nose. The title is "Smell the Glove." Nigel Tuftner (Christopher Guest) says that he doesn't know why the album can't go on the shelves the way it is... The record label exec explains that it's sexist.

Nigel replies, "what's wrong with being sexy?"

My bad. I highly recommend the movie, tho. It's stupid humor at its best, many moments of hilarity along the lines of "Airplane!" The Spinal Tap scene that you described has one of the band members attempting to pass through airport security with a cucumber wrapped in tin foil in his pants to look better to the ladies. The movie spawned several beautiful songs lampooning metal & rock song lyrics, "Big Bottoms," "Sex Farm Woman," and a song from the sixties (made up), "Listen to What the Flower People Say." And there's a new movie that is a documentary about an actual metal band that never made it called "Anvil." Supposed to be great.

But I digress. Realtor joke I heard yesterday:

Q: What's the most common statement from realtors in 2008/2009?

A: Would you like fries with that?

If you want to actually buy a piece pf property you should work with the listing agent and pay them a fee. A listing agent will work with you th beat up the seller and you can almost always buy a home for less when you work with a listing agent and let them "double end" the deal.

Eliiemae,

I have actually seen the movie, but I forgot that part. Good one! You could say that I was attempting a parody of Nigel Tuffnell, without actually being conscious of it. Worse things could happen, I suppose. I'll keep in mind the Anvil" thing, sounds cool.

How about a mockumentary about real-estate agents? That would work for me. The possibilities seem endless....

American Beauty's Annette Benning chacter - "I WILL SELL THIS HOUSE TODAY!" (as she's wearing her underwear cleaning windows before an open house) would be a great start.

Willy,

Now I'm all confused. You make nice with me on the other thread (prop 13), and then you are being mean to me here. I just know what to think anymore. But we can still be friends, really! For example, Bap and I get along reasonably, even though we have near-violent disagreements about just about everything. We may even have called each other a name or two.

Peace?

[Bap, now I understand your comment about Willy better. It really is hard sometime to know how to feel :-)]

I'm terrible with movies. I forget them. Another good one.

@justme
“Now this is getting too clever for me. Even Urban Dictionary does not define “Spinal Tap Moment”. Searching……searching…. –ok, I think I got it.: “Moment of great embarrassment” (possibly related to a scene were heavy-metal band goes through airport security and gets exposed).
Well, enough with the lulz. I’m going to quit while I still can. Touche’.”
It’s not that difficult for things to get ‘too clever’ for you. I’d think you’d be used to that by now.

justme:
He can be quite the wanker himself. I welcome spirited discussions, and when attacked by a koolaide drinking realtor's subordinate who is condescending and boorish, I have no problem with changing their name to something more appropriate (as in fellatio - and he made it wayyyyy to easy). I hit a homer on that one, or at the very least got to 3rd base. However, IMHO attacking your ability to be clever fouled out.

Just sayin'

"I have no problem with changing their name to something more appropriate (as in fellatio - and he made it wayyyyy to easy). I hit a homer on that one"

Might you mean you hit a hummer with that one? But I assume fellatio expected to take a few licks for giving you lip since he's a jerk who can't get ahead. (no offense to my realtor peeps who don't suck)

Mikey likes it..

Mikey likes it..

Yea - but is it just lip service? Throaty voice, whitest teeth I've ever come across... Blew me away.

However, I own my home - and that means that I can sell it myself.

True, but the majority of your potential serious buyers will have called a realtor. That is the crux of the issue.

And FAB is right for when a house you are interested in buying is listed. Work with the listing agent only, do not bring in a "buyer's agent." When the listing agent does not have to split, he will work extra hard to close, even if it means siding with you and convincing the seller to lower the price.

Headset say:
"True, but the majority of your potential serious buyers will have called a realtor. That is the crux of the issue."

If I were selling, I'd set my price and if they brought a realtor, they can add the commission on top of it. That's up to them. I have a friend who's a realtor and she was complaining that many fsbo's are doing this - and the buyers are deciding to buy without the realtor because of it.

As it should be.

If I were selling, I’d set my price and if they brought a realtor, they can add the commission on top of it. That’s up to them. I have a friend who’s a realtor and she was complaining that many fsbo’s are doing this - and the buyers are deciding to buy without the realtor because of it.

Problem - Before the realtor will show the client around, the buyer's agent realtor makes the client sign a contract. This contact states that any house the client buys within a particular time (usually 90 to 180 days) obligates the client to pay 3% if FSBO and 6% or so if listed. This contact will include any FSBO house shown by the realtor, and often any FSBO house the client finds on his own.

So, if a realtor brought a buyer and you refuse to pay the 3% out of your proceeds, the buyer will have to cough up the 3% out of pocket. This will kill the deal.

When I was in the market for homes, I refused to let a realtor show me any FSBO. I wanted the realtor to show his listings, and I would find FSBOs on my own. Then I would get the best deal, whether listed or not.

If I were selling, I’d set my price and if they brought a realtor, they can add the commission on top of it. That’s up to them. I have a friend who’s a realtor and she was complaining that many fsbo’s are doing this - and the buyers are deciding to buy without the realtor because of it.

Problem - Before the realtor will show the client around, the buyer’s agent realtor makes the client sign a contract. This contact states that any house the client buys within a particular time (usually 90 to 180 days) obligates the client to pay 3% if FSBO and 6% or so if listed. This contact will include any FSBO house shown by the realtor, and often any FSBO house the client finds on his own.
So, if a realtor brought a buyer and you refuse to pay the 3% out of your proceeds, the buyer will have to cough up the 3% out of pocket. This will kill the deal.
When I was in the market for homes, I refused to let a realtor show me any FSBO. I wanted the realtor to show his listings, and I would find FSBOs on my own. Then I would get the best deal, whether listed or not.

Not all realtors require a contract before showing a home. If they do, it's up the the potential buyer as to whether they want that realtor to show them homes. Your final statement is a reason why fsbo's are so much a better deal. But once again, if I'm selling and someone wants to buy, they'll add the commission on top of what I want out of the house.

I've dealt with 3 different realtors and I've never heard of one who has required signing a contract saying that you'd go through them if they showed you a property.

The value that a realtor provides is NOT in touring a property. Most of the time the realtor just stands there while you look around. If that was all that they did they wouldn't be in business.

The value that a realtor provides is in coordinating everything that is necessary to make sure that the transaction goes smoothly. This means preparing and submitting your offer, following up with the seller, requesting and filing all paper work, helping to set up inspections, and dealing with all the other stuff that comes up when buying a home.

That said, any seller in the current market who expects to have the buyer pay their realtor's fees had damned sure have an amazing deal already. A 3% fee does not translate to a 3% price difference, either, because in today's market the banks aren't going to allow you to tack that onto the loan unless you're already appraising higher than asking. If you honestly expect the buyer to pay that fee, you need to ensure that you're asking for at least 5-10% under the appraised value of the home (and that appraisal had better be less than 90 days old).

I do agree with the sentiment that 3% is far too high a price for the services that realtors are performing though. 3% has been standard for decades, but now we have computerized processes for everything. Hell, you don't even have to physically sign your offer letter anymore. With the rise of companies like Redfin, it seems inevitable that transaction costs will go down.

see page 1 of state min. requirements.
http://www.dre.ca.gov/pdf_docs/re4.pdf
Classes are often provided through your local community college.

On the other hand ..."Buying RE for Dummies" maybe cheaper greater indebt and
pro-consumer focused.

"The value that a realtor provides is in coordinating everything that is necessary to make sure that the transaction goes smoothly. This means preparing and submitting your offer, following up with the seller, requesting and filing all paper work, helping to set up inspections, and dealing with all the other stuff that comes up when buying a home." - Kevin 2009

None of this is rocket science. It can easily be done on your own. And you'll probably get a cheaper, more qualified inspector on your own. One that isn't in bed with the realtor. Yes, this stuff can be a bit of a pain, but 3% of a $300k home is $9,000. I would postulate that the "value" isn't worth it.

On a lighter note - my favorite quote from 2008 is one that Tara Reid said. If you don't know who Tara is, she's a starlet most famous for a show called "Taradise" where she traveled the world party spots in bikinis (showing off some spectacularly awful plastic surgery), getting falling-down-drunk and stupid and vomiting (but in a cute way?). Her show was cancelled shortly after it started. This young woman said, "I'm not very smart. I make Jessica Simpson look like a ROCK scientist." (Jessica Simpson is famous for thinking that tuna in a can is chicken because the ad says, "chicken of the sea.")

Given that statement, I should change my opening sentence to, "None of this is geology..."

In theory...a real estate agent should be very knowledgeable about protecting a buyer in any way possible from all the stuff that can go wrong
In theory...its not just the license but the long experience, having sold 100's of homes and having learned from experience of what could go wrong, what to look for
In theory...its a profession just like anything else, you wouldn't try to become a dentist in order to fix your teeth, would you?

In REALITY...real estate agents know nothing more about real estate than anybody that has common sense and gets a license.
In reality...real estate agents do nothing to protect the buyer but only whats best for themselves...which is..get the deal signed and delivered and at the highest price possible
In reality...real estate agents use boiler plate forms which attorneys have put together and when you ask a real estate agent about each individual point most of them canNOT even explain it
In reality...everybody and anybody can be a real estate agent - when you are a listing agent, the house WILL sell eventually and you do nothing except stand around on sundays, smile and tell people how charming the house is, how great the owners are and how nice the views are (even though the house has NO views at all)

This is from my own experience with realtors here in california. Basically, in our neighborhood EVERY stay home mom is a realtor. No kidding. And they do what for me...send me listings they only are supposed to have access to...how come I can find every listing they send me online, myself?

Times have changed, the internet is there now - Zillow etc...if a realtor did what they are supposed to do, I'd say..yes, you need an experienced fully fledged realtor, that knows everything and anything about selling/buying/building/inspecting a house...But they simply don't.

And now they are complaining that it takes 6 months to sell a house and the money is bad for the time you put in. You know what? That is what being a realtor is all about, buddy!! You were raking it in, in the past 6 years, made more money than god...and if you don't have any dough on the sidelines for now - you are definitely not my realtor of choice.

I am amazed just how lazy some of these realtors are, when they realize that it won't come easy...they walk away and send you an email per day with the latest listings, anybody can find online. These are the times where you have to work your butt off to stay afloat. But realtors are sooo spoiled from the past years, that it seems not worth their "valuable" time.

If I find a realtor that is all a realtor should be in theory, I'll change my mind.