patrick.net

Right on, dude.

from wikipedia

"The consensus of the scientific community is that the alleged micro-macro division is an artificial construct made by creationists and does not accurately reflect the actual processes of evolution. Evolutionary theory (including macroevolutionary change) remains the dominant scientific paradigm for explaining the origins of Earth's biodiversity. Its occurrence, while controversial with the public at large, is not disputed within the scientific community.

While details of macroevolution are continuously studied by the scientific community, the overall theory behind macroevolution (i.e. common descent) has been overwhelmingly consistent with empirical data."

...the fact is, the vast, vast, vast, vast, vast majority...

Clearly, you are an overly fond and vastly generous soul when it comes to the word VAST.

There are plenty of educated people in this country who do not believe in macroevolution, including myself and many of my colleagues in medicine and other scientific professions

.

And plenty who don't. What is your point, exactly? In any event, whatever your BELIEFS, they have no place in science, as science does not operate on faith. Not good science, anyway. What is more, you might be wary of any Doctor in any arm of the scientific community who sided with anything as fanciful as the pseudo science behind irreducible complexity over evolutionary theory.

“christian” evolutionists, but they are few and far between

There may be evolutionists who strive to be Christ-like, but any evolutionist claiming to simultaneously believe in Christian Fundamentalism or Intelligent Design...is a hack.

Big business is the enemy of the people, always has been.”

Big bussinesses are evil and they do what they do because thats the only way they can make money !!

The fucker in the store smiles and greets me not because he loves me to death but because thats the only way he can beat the competition and make money ...duh !

customer service is not a result of some religious/cultural belief but a way to attract customers to make money..ditto for other things too. if you can't see that then you need to spend some time thinking about human nature and history of money making.

So why are you using big business products (PC, Internet-Telecom, Software, etc ) ?
I'll use because its available. its a product of a system (capitalism with consumer protection) which makes evil people work thier ass off to satisfy thier greed for money and in the process indirectly help the society ..awesome isn't it.

So do you believe that the big corps created PC, Internet-Telecom, Software, etc for charity purposes and not for just making money ...how naive.

Back in my College years.. Apple along with HP and DEC ‘donated’ computer equipment and software to local colleges and universities…

Over the years billion dollars of similar products were donated to education from K-12 and universities.

My company last year donated half a million of products to universities as well. Shocking isnt it!

Fair points, Zeta, but I wouldn't be too quick to genuflect to big businesses for their charitable contributions. Apple and HP are not Newman's Own, after all; those billions of dollars (MSRP dollars, or actual cost, by the way? This makes a difference) translate into some pretty juicy tax breaks, do they not?

That was beautiful.

It's unfortunate that politicos are more interested in their re-elections than the needs of their constituents. It frosts my ass that the people who are attempting to block healthcare reform receive the best of healthcare; they would change their minds if they had to choose between medications and food/rent.

Although there are corporations that donate, that help people less fortunate - I'd say that many more don't give a shit about anything but profits.

Oh no! It's those nasty Republicans again. Let's all circle around the scapegoat to tar and feather them. When they take control again after a future election then we can do the same to Democrats!

Seriously, if you're ranting about Republicans then you've just fallen into the same old party trap that's been dogging the system for decades. While you're busy keeping tabs on a particular party the other is gathering up as much money and power as they can. Then when it's time to switch roles the exact same thing happens with the party that was previously opposed. It's one big rotating circus show where regular people are the clowns waffling about while the VIP's make those backroom deals in the manager's lounge only to pop out when they see their poll numbers slipping.

It would be nice if we could just dispense with the whole concept of parties here and get healthcare reform done right. What do you want to change about the bill and what do you want to stay the same? Those are the questions that matter. Don't blindly believe that all Republicans are trying to derail things and therefore you should do the opposite of what they say. Don't blindly believe the Democrats are working for your best interests and you should do what they say.

"It would be nice if we could just dispense with the whole concept of parties here and get healthcare reform done right. What do you want to change about the bill and what do you want to stay the same? Those are the questions that matter. Don’t blindly believe that all Republicans are trying to derail things and therefore you should do the opposite of what they say. Don’t blindly believe the Democrats are working for your best interests and you should do what they say."

Well said.

I disagree with many things said by Democrats, but the Repulican Party has gone nastier than ever. Civility no longer matters, and fueled by fox news people are furthering the hatred. The people who are at the tea parties and marches are being manipulated by huge corporations whose goal is to make money and crush competition.

Reminder:

Forum Policy:
You may express any opinion,
as long as you are polite.

Even the word "whiney" is not polite. First step in solving anything is that we have to be polite to each other.

Now I'm going to shoot a few people.

What does this have to do with housing?

hanksung23 -- rational, intelligent people don't "believe" in the theory of evolution, we use the scientific method to learn things about our world, combining knowledge learned from a variety of sources and discarding information as it becomes outdated. "Belief" implies that you simply think something happened a certain way and don't really have a rational basis for believing it. Another word for "belief" is "faith", and faith and science serve very different roles.

Faith is what motivates people to want to figure things out (for instance, I have faith that one day human beings will stop killing each other), but science provides us with the facts that tell us how the world actually works. In a way I have "faith" in the scientific method, because, well, there's always the possibility that using facts and observation to draw conclusions could be totally bogus. Given that the scientific method has led to the discovery of everything from microbes to nuclear energy, though, I'm a believer.

I couldn't care less what "scientists" think (I'm a "computer scientist", but I know fuck all about genetic engineering or nuclear physics), but I do value the research performed by biologists, geologists, and geneticists, who overwhelmingly accept the peer-reviewed, scientific evidence that supports macroevolution as a model for explaining how life on earth got into its current state. You're as likely to find a credible, published, peer-reviewed biologist who doubts macroevolution as you are a similar physicist who doubts gravity.

Do note that there is plenty of disagreement about ultimate origins, how the first life was created, and how the universe itself was created. This is entirely because we lack the tools to research these areas with an reasonable level of confidence. Hopefully new tools like the LHC will shed some light on at least some of our questions.

MORAL OF THE STORY: Be responsible for yourself!

MODERN VERSION: The ant works hard in the withering heat all summer long, building his house and laying up supplies for the winter. The grasshopper thinks the ant is a fool and laughs and dances and plays the summer away. Come winter, the shivering grasshopper calls a press conference and demands to know why the ant should be allowed to be warm and well fed while others are cold and starving..

CBS, NBC , PBS, CNN, and ABC show up to provide pictures of the shivering grasshopper next to a video of the ant in his comfortable home with a table filled with food. America is stunned by the sharp contrast. How can this be, that in a country of such wealth, this poor grasshopper is allowed to suffer so?

Kermit the Frog appears on Oprah with the grasshopper, and everybody cries when they sing, 'It's Not Easy Being Green.' Jesse Jackson stages a demonstration in front of the ant's house where the news stations film the group singing, 'We shall overcome.' Jesse then has the group kneel down to pray to God for the grasshopper's sake.

Nancy Pelosi & John Kerry exclaim in an interview with Larry King that the ant has gotten rich off the back of the grasshopper, and both call for an immediate tax hike on the ant to make him pay his fair share.

Finally, the EEOC drafts the Economic Equity & Anti-Grasshopper Act retroactive to the beginning of the summer. The ant is fined for failing to hire a proportionate number of green bugs and, having nothing left to pay his retroactive taxes, his home is confiscated by the government.

The story ends as we see the grasshopper finishing up the last bits of the ant's food while the government house he is in, which just happens to be the ant's old house, crumbles around him because he doesn't maintain it.

The ant has disappeared in the snow.

The grasshopper is found dead in a drug related incident and the house, now abandoned, is taken over by a gang of spiders who terrorize the once peaceful neighborhood.

homeowner_for ever_san jose says

Big bussinesses are evil and they do what they do because thats the only way they can make money !!

I wouldn't say they are evil exactly, just completely amoral. Corporations are bound by law to make the most money they can for their shareholders. If they started just being nice, their shareholders could sue them.

That's all fine -- as long as we have legal restraints on what corporations can do. The law must be bigger than the corporations, and must stop them from making money by grinding up children to sell as dog food, for example. Corporations will scream and cry the the government is interfering in the free market, and they'd be right. A totally unregulated free market would kill us all.

Too much regulation is bad, but too little regulation is bad too.

I think most of our current problems can be traced to corporate involvement in government, bending the laws too much in favor profit above being human. The solution is to eliminate all corporate lobbying, and eliminate the corporation's legal equivalence to a human being. Corporations are not human and we should not pretend they are. Think of the corporation as a dangerous piece of machinery. It makes things you want, but you need safety rules around it if you don't want to get some fingers chopped off.

Don't worry guy. The vast majority will be just as screwed when they or a loved one gets sick and the private insurance company they love so much comes up with a bullshit reason to deny the care they need as any Obama voter would be. And they'll be the first to scream "Where's the government?".

The solution is to eliminate all corporate lobbying

That is entirely a political issue. Until voters are willing to throw out thier reps that are beholden to lobbyists, nothing will happen. Unfortunately, such a concern will not happen until voters see politicians as individuals, not as some collective like "The Republican Party." Too many want to excuse improprieties from a memeber of the "correct" party, using compensating examples of improprieties from the "wrong" party.

I think most of our current problems can be traced to corporate involvement in government

True, but check the history of any regulating agency. It is almost a proverb that the agency starts out as a crusader to protect the public from a demostrated excess, but then slowly evolves into an advocate of the group they are supposed to be policing.

Blk_Repub,

Good post!

But the moral of your fable does not seem to be "take care of yourself", but to party hardy, since if you save your accumulations will be confiscated and reallocated to the polically connected/protected.

The "stupid to save" philosophy runs rampant with my English relatives. After all, medical care is free, housing for subjects over 80 is free (including a warden or other caretakers), and if one is ever made redundant, a generous dole kicks in. The only savings they would do is something like to put away short term cash to fund a trip to Majorca.

HeadSet says

Unfortunately, such a concern will not happen until voters see politicians as individuals, not as some collective like “The Republican Party.”

Wow, that's a great idea actually. Politicians should be elected on the basis of what they themselves believe, not on toeing their party line. I really relate to that. I get called socialist and liberal for supporting the idea that we are one country and should take care of our own people's health. But I also really don't like government mortgage subsidies that drive up the cost of a house and create debt. Some people would call that Republican.

But maybe individuals just can't get elected because they can't come up with the organization and money necessary.

Some Guy says

Can’t be done. We have a two-party system. In any given election, BOTH candidates are beholden to lobbyists.

True, but my pipe dream is the public will start voting on issues and not personality or party. That way, candidates would have to state thier platform precisely and the two party system would die out.

Besides, if one Demopublican is voted out for being to cozy with lobbyists, the next race would have both parties stubling over themselves to distance themselves from lobbyists. 'Tis another pipe dream, though. The current president promised to curb lobbyists and has done no such thing, and his inaction will have no bearing on his re-election chances.

we are one country and should take care of our own people’s health

Good point, but should not that be left up to the States? Fire departments, school systems, universities and police departments are all large enterprises run by states with varying degrees of delegation to local governments. Why can't each State set up health care as it sees fit along the same lines?

But maybe individuals just can’t get elected because they can’t come up with the organization and money necessary.

Self fulfilling loop, that. Without politcal parties it would not cost over $1 million to run for a Mayor's job that pays $20k per year. (Newport News, VA).

That is like saying the reason we need easy credit is so people can afford the inflated house prices.

is there a 'BEST OF PATRICK.NET' just like on Craigslist? :-)
If so, this one qualifies

homeowner_for ever_san jose says

“Dear Republicans,
I’m sick of this bullshit.
I’m sick of the way you’ve corrupted the public discourse.
I’m sick of the way you’ve made the populace stupid.
I'm sick of the way you try to destroy the whole concept of government.
I’m sick of your rewriting of history.
I’m sick of your dragging the center ever further to the right.
I’m sick of your casual criminality.
I’m sick of you praising pure evil.
I’m sick of your attempts to tilt the playing field permanently in your favor.
I’m sick of your corporatism.

Oops, I didn't know Obama is an Republican... :P

Who's talking:

http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/09/14/obamas-speech-what-will-be-different-next-time/?hp

My next question is, which president will make more damage to U.S.A. after all, Bush or Obama?
. Bush $2.5 Trillion Deficit
. Obama $4.9 Trillion Deficit
. About the same "Evil"
. None of the above, American can blame noone, they all deserve it

Who's More Evil:

http://blog.heritage.org/2009/03/24/bush-deficit-vs-obama-deficit-in-pictures/

My 2 stupid cents.

Some Guy says

How would that work, exactly? Let’s say California has free health care, and Nevada doesn’t. What do you think would happen whenever someone in Nevada gets cancer? We’d have a system where one state has to provide medical treatment for the whole country.

You would have to be a resident of that state to receive it's healthcare. California public schools, police, and fire departments do not serve other states. Do non-California residents get to attend California colleges for the same fee as residents?

HeadSet says

The solution is to eliminate all corporate lobbying

That is entirely a political issue. Until voters are willing to throw out thier reps that are beholden to lobbyists, nothing will happen. Unfortunately, such a concern will not happen until voters see politicians as individuals, not as some collective like “The Republican Party.” Too many want to excuse improprieties from a memeber of the “correct” party, using compensating examples of improprieties from the “wrong” party.

Support citizen-funded elections! http://change-congress.org/

Our president B.S. again:
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601086&sid=aDlCSVPjzqbQ
"Government Involvement
Americans can be confident that “the storms of the past two years are beginning to break,” Obama said.
“While there continues to be a need for government involvement to stabilize the financial system, that necessity is waning,” he said, adding that “normalcy cannot lead to complacency.”
At least still have someone willing to tell truth from deep of their heart:
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601085&sid=aSbIT8GZjdKI
“In the U.S. and many other countries, the too-big-to-fail banks have become even bigger,” Stiglitz said in an interview yesterday in Paris. “The problems are worse than they were in 2007 before the crisis.”

The way you’ve made it acceptable to hurl any insult you like at public officials.

So you are sick of conservatives doing what liberals have been doing for decades?

So all of a sudden, it's NOW a bad thing?

IMO, turn about ia fair play.

The main post (LuCifer) was pretty much right on target.

Patrick, maybe you can tell us who got deleted.

Did hanksung23 (or was it hanskung23) get deleted?I'm reading between the lines that he did. I don't know what he wrote, but he had good input on the healthcare thread.

I guess I'm a bit concerned about the whole deletion business. Who's next? Surfer-X wouldn't last a day, and that would be unfortunate. Also, deleting users and all their posts leave big holes in the archives, and one cannot figure out how the discussion went.

I still think one of the main problems we have is the free thread creation. I still believe it worked better when there was a main thread, which could then diverge into various topics of the day as needed. But you know my opinion on that already.

justme says

Patrick, maybe you can tell us who got deleted.

Did hanksung23 (or was it hanskung23) get deleted?

Yup, hanskung23 is gone. And the guy with the Obama evil-clown logo, and OTS. And I think 3 others. Not too many, and they all were definitely impolite.

Bye Bye Impolite, you will be missed. . . . by some.

When we are not polite, we waste our time fighting each other about silly divisive issues rather than fixing the problems by removing the corporate lobbyists and CEOs from Washington DC.

If we really want to fix the Goldman Sachs rip-off of America (and I do believe they have ripped off us taxpayers) then we need to understand the impediments to change. We have enough collective intelligence to do it.

This is still a democracy, and we can make the government answer to the people rather than the corporations.

Let's start by revoking the laws that make corporations into legal people. How can we get that done? Campaign finance reform would probably help.

Patrick said: "Let’s start by revoking the laws that make corporations into legal people."

OK, let's start there, Ill start a new Topic where we can hash this out.

>>Campaign finance reform would probably help.

Sure, campaign reform is great, but the real solution is to have a proper *election* system that provides for real competition between, and accountability of, the political parties.

Competition is the only way to make the parties accountable to the voters. As long as there is a party duo-poly, there is no way we will get anything better than "the lesser of two evils".

If parties need not compete for voters, they will instead compete for money, which is how we got into the current state of political dysfunction in the US.

Impolite says

As far as I’M concerned, this country is DEAD. I’ll NEVER waste my time or breath again in any stupid opinion forum as long as I live. From now on all my efforts will be directed to EMIGRATING from this shithole known as the United States of America LAND OF THE FRAUD.

And where will you go? There really isn't anywhere in the world that's much better than the US, and in those few places where it is you'll be an immigrant anyway, suffering from work limitations and property ownership restrictions.

Why are you so angry? Have you been personally wronged? Is your situation today substantially different from what it was 1, 5, or 10 years ago? If so, I'm sorry, but if not, why are you so mad? I'm not terribly thrilled with a lot of what goes on in the world, but, well, my life is pretty good, and in this world that's all we can ask for.

The original post is an academic lesson in hipocrasy. Anyone who fails to recognize and admit that most politicians & idealogues are cut from the same cloth are being dishonest.

Corporations are bound by law to make the most money they can for their shareholders. If they started just being nice, their shareholders could sue them.

The law must be bigger than the corporations, and must stop them from making money by grinding up children to sell as dog food, for example. Corporations will scream and cry the the government is interfering in the free market, and they’d be right. A totally unregulated free market would kill us all.

But honestly, I hope it's not impolite to suggest this might be the dumbest thing I've read all week. Really?? How can we take this seriously? Without thoughtful and honest analysis, there is no point other than mindless entertainment.

Hmmm, "dumbest thing I've read" sounds impolite.

Especially because you didn't explain why you think it's dumb.

You think corporations won't do whatever they can to make money?

As far as I’M concerned, this country is DEAD. I’ll NEVER waste my time or breath again in any stupid opinion forum as long as I live. From now on all my efforts will be directed to EMIGRATING from this shithole known as the United States of America LAND OF THE FRAUD.

And where will you go? There really isn’t anywhere in the world that’s much better than the US, and in those few places where it is you’ll be an immigrant anyway, suffering from work limitations and property ownership restrictions.

Hal Turner, anyone?

I can't help but suspect that some of the angrier, seditious rantings on here might be posted to snare the type of would-be nut jobs these posters pose as.

I could be wrong, in which case, I apologize in advance to any genuine nut jobs.

" And where will you go? There really isn’t anywhere in the world that’s much better than the US, and in those few places where it is you’ll be an immigrant anyway, suffering from work limitations and property ownership restrictions."

Why would you make such a claim? I could name at least 3 other countries that leave the USA in the dust. I don't speculate. I speak frm experience. Just because you were born in the USA does not by definition make it the best in the world.