patrick.net

GOD DAMN IT, everyone knows that there are only "Liberals" and "Conservatives", and everyone cleanly falls into one of these camps and dogmatically believes whatever arbitrary thing Abe has decided that they believe.

Could there be any possibility that a person who cleaned toilets, went on to start a janitorial company and become a millionaire? Or a person who flipped burgers went on to become wealthy as a fast food franchise owner. Or a person who made cookies started a national brand?

What liberals can't stand is that freedom provides equal opportunity - but not equal results. Liberals seem to want equal results, you know utopia - hahaha.

Nomograph says

free markets always have winners and losers (i.e. unequal results).

Sorry but unequal results is NOT the same as your winners and losers fallacy. In fact if we examine marxism or its fruits such as communism (a government designed to give "equal results") I think we realize that "equal results" means *EVERYBODY LOSES.

*except maybe for the PtB

In a truly free market everyone makes their choices and pursues happiness in their own way, free of coercion. Some may fail to achieve happiness, but they are not losers as long as they are free to pursue it. However when you force them to work to support freeloaders or debase their currency so their wages are constantly losing value then you have made their pursuit essentially in vain. We no longer have free markets here in the US. The corporatists, with the help of the FED have rigged the system so that you cannot out compete them. With over $12.6 trillion in national debt and $16.5 trillion in private debt, our nation is full of indentured servants with no hope of paying off their debts.

Thanks Federal Reserve!

In Monopoly, the game ends when one player has all the money and everyone else is bankrupt. This is usually the point in Western societies where economic breakdown & civil unrest trigger a sudden populist interest in socialist policies. Failing to recognize the flaws of unbridled capitalism is the downfall of it's fervent adherents. They always say "well we didn't do it purely enough, let's try again!"

Honest Abe says

What liberals can’t stand is that freedom provides equal opportunity - but not equal results. Liberals seem to want equal results, you know utopia - hahaha.

"Equal opportunity" my ass. You can't possibly claim that someone born in a trailer park to an unwed mother has an equal opportunity as the guy who's the son of a billionaire.

AdHominem says

Sorry but unequal results is NOT the same as your winners and losers fallacy. In fact if we examine marxism or its fruits such as communism (a government designed to give “equal results”) I think we realize that “equal results” means *EVERYBODY LOSES.

Uh, sorry, but unequal results does mean that there are winners and losers.

Communism isn't intended to give "equal results" -- it's simply another theoretical (and never implemented, so you can't draw any conclusions about it) economic model, which (like all economic models) has the goal of doing "what's best".

AdHominem says

We no longer have free markets here in the US.

There has *NEVER* been a truly free market anywhere in the world, because a true free market can only exist in a place with complete honesty and transparency (i.e. a place where human beings don't exist). If you believe otherwise, please tell me the time period that you believe so-called free markets existed. The primary reason that you can't have a truly free market is that the only way to prevent monopolist forces (the antithesis of the free market) is by having a strong authority (i.e. government) to check it. Wealth of Nations was written long before the real innovations of the industrial revolution that allowed for monopolies to come into existence, and when we attempted to apply Smith's theories in the 1800s we wound up with Standard Oil and US Steel. Living under the oppressive thumb of the rockerfellers and carnegies of the world is no better than living under the oppressive thumb of the monarchy.

All that matters in economics is outcome. If system A produces an outcome that is better as a whole than system B (where "better" is admittedly somewhat arbitrary, though generally defined as "quality of life"), then system A is the better system. If a pure free market produces the best outcome, great. If a pure central planned economy produces the best outcome, also great. So far, history has shown time and time again that mixed markets yield the best results.

Kevin says

Uh, sorry, but unequal results does mean that there are winners and losers.

Wrong. Does your repeating it make it true or just show that you are incapable of reason? Being less successful than your competition does NOT make you a loser (and in fact by the very nature of your competition you have added value to the market and pursued your own happiness, a win win situation!). That is why the corporate powers that be hate free markets, they do not want you to take ANY profits away from them or force them to provide BETTER service/value.

Kevin says

the only way to prevent monopolist forces (the antithesis of the free market) is by having a strong authority (i.e. government) to check it.

Wrong again. Big government is the TOOL of the corporatists that enables them to maintain and expand their monopolies/oligopolies. The corporations lobby to create rules that set barriers to competition, you know all the red tape and expensive compliance measures required to enter the marketplace? Then to insure their own profits they set up the FED and other bailouts that are available to the "too big to fail" but not to the too small to matter. The too small to matter are the ones who don't contribute enough to the election of the "representatives" in federal government. Corporations LOVE big government, it makes it EASIER to force their will on the public.

For example, lets say that Indiana passed a law that only Silver coins (and bank debit accounts based on silver) would be legal tender in the state. In order to reach that market, companies would have to price their products accordingly, and people would know the true rate of inflation. The powers that be don't want this of course so the must force ALL Americans to use a fiat standard enforced by a strong (bought and paid for by special interests) Federal Government.

AdHominem says

Wrong. Does your repeating it make it true or just show that you are incapable of reason? Being less successful than your competition does NOT make you a loser (and in fact by the very nature of your competition you have added value to the market and pursued your own happiness, a win win situation!). That is why the corporate powers that be hate free markets, they do not want you to take ANY profits away from them or force them to provide BETTER service/value.

Yeah, no, sorry, but you have this weird black and white attitude that losing means that you have nothing and die in a ditch or something. I honestly don't understand it.

AdHominem says

Wrong again. blah blah blah blah blah

Indeed, I forgot that corporations were falling apart left and right back when we took a lasseiz faire attitude towards businesses. There never was such a thing as a company store, virtual slave cities weren't built by industrialists, and monopoly abuses were never committed by US steel or standard oil. Competition was so fierce that nobody had any reason to complain about the situation and consumers enjoyed the benefits of a free market that provided ample choice, just like it always does because my theoretical model claims that it does!

AdHominem says

For example, lets say that Indiana passed a law that only Silver coins (and bank debit accounts based on silver) would be legal tender in the state. In order to reach that market, companies would have to price their products accordingly, and people would know the true rate of inflation. The powers that be don’t want this of course so the must force ALL Americans to use a fiat standard enforced by a strong (bought and paid for by special interests) Federal Government.

"The powers that be" don't want this for the same reason that sane people don't want it -- we'd rather not have to convert our currency every time we cross a state line. Ever travel through Europe before the Euro? It was a godawful mess. Fortunately, lots of places took dollars, which made things a little more bearable.

Not everything is some sinister plot to deprive you of your freedom.

Nomograph says

it goes like this: winner > loser. The guy on the ‘greater than’ side of the inequality symbol is the winner.

You are trying to define winner in an ideological sense, which is why you are having a difficult time with it. It’s fine if you want to give everyone a prize for participating in your ideological system, but the guy who gets the ninth place trophy is the loser.

Talk about black and white thinking! Your equation is the epitome. The guy who gets the ninth place trophy is the loser because you said so right? Your winners and losers statement is a fallacy precisely because it determines a person's worth in terms of what "place" they got or how much fiat money they made. That IS YOUR IDEOLOGICAL FALLACY. That is why you are having difficulty admitting your own blind spot.

You think in black and white terms of winners and losers. You simply can't wrap your ideology around a WIN WIN scenario.

In order to justify your ideology that there are always winners and losers: you MUST arbitrarily define what a winner and a loser is based on income or some other arbitrary measure.

In quantitative terms you can define winners and losers (and remember it is YOU who insists on defining winning and losing in this manner), but it doesn't mean anything, especially if in qualitative terms the "winners and losers" still enjoy freedom to pursue their own happiness.

NOMO, you might as well admit that your ideology has been exposed. Your ideology is no different than the thinking of the people who thought of the American Indians as losers and savages, and then went on the murder and send them to concentration camps.

If you want to talk about inequality try this one:
P+1>P
This inequality insures that (thanks to the FED and its fiat monopoly) America will never be able to pay off its debt and inflation is a certainty if we are to pay even the interest. The only way for America to be free from its growing burden of debt is to End the Fed and its fiat regime.

Nomograph says

The fact that you are forced to talk about indians and concentration camps

Actually I said that just to get a rise out of you. Your black and white way of thinking about winners and losers betrays your prejudice and lack of understanding. There is such a thing as a win win scenario but according to your dogma that just doesn't compute. In fact, society is built upon the win win scenario, the fact that our fabric of society periodically goes through strain and decay is because people like you think in black and white (winners and losers) rather than seeking the win win scenario.

A gold or silver standard is not a government sponsored wealth management program. The federal reserve IS a government sponsored wealth transfer program. That is the problem. A gold standard can be a win win scenario, the FED and its fiat regime is anything but. Do you really think that having a debt that is growing and can never be repaid is in everyone's best interest?

Nomograph says

Wintson?

Actually the name for people who are loyal party members like you is Winston.

Why are you afraid of sound money Winston? Actually I know you aren't but rather just like to be a pain in the ass. Are you a proctologist?

Winston says

play some video games

What games do you play? Are they approved by the ministry of truth Winston?

BTW I'm not upset, I'm having fun playing with your superiority complex. Your black and white thinking/blindspot is amusing.

Nomograph says

I am the Ministry of Truth, Winston. I control the schools, the health care system, and the financial system. I want to help you, so just sit back, relax, and let me do the thinking.

Wow you're like the wizard of Oz!

Nomograph says

Have a bowl of ice cream.

But I don't like ice cream. Can I have cake instead?

Nomograph says

and to each person I will issue a shiny gold ninth place trophy.

Ah shucks that sounds nice! Giving back some the money you stole through inflation and taxation. You are generous.

Nomograph says

Everyone’s a winner when Big Brother is in charge.

Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain. He is just a black and white thinker who has made it his goal in life to have someone else clean his toilet. Oh and if you clean toilets (even your own) you are a loser in his book of prejudice. He gives you a ninth place trophy like a star of david.

AdHominem says

Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain. He is just a black and white thinker who has made it his goal in life to have someone else clean his toilet. Oh and if you clean toilets (even your own) you are a loser in his book of prejudice. He gives you a ninth place trophy like a star of david.

Once again, I'm making a huge leap of an assumption here. But I'm guessing that Nomo didn't become a doctor so that someone else could clean his toilet. And, unless I'm missing something here, I doubt he has competitions amongst his 9 servants to see who cleans best so that he can give out ninth place trophies.

Also, I wasn't aware that they award a Star of David to the best toilet cleaners, although anyone is welcome to wear one and respect the meaning behind the symbol. What an offensive comment - but I've come to expect nothing less from you.

So - my kid was about 8 when we had a lovely conversation about why it was so important for him to know how to clean, and that he should practice by cleaning up his room. It wasn't filthy, just had crap spread everywhere with his "treasures" thrown about - and my point was that I shouldn't have to clean it for him (his point was that the room's appearance didn't bother him, so it was my problem - not his). I asked him, what happens when you grow up and there's no mom around to clean up after you? He said, "I'll get a wife."

I can't wait until he gets married and shall spring that tidbit of wisdom upon his lovely (I'm sure) yet unsuspecting bride. Either that, or he can pay me $$$ not to tell her. I'm gonna be rich!

elliemae says

I asked him, what happens when you grow up and there’s no mom around to clean up after you? He said, “I’ll get a wife.”

Shocking statement .... SHOCKING. Sounds very much like you are raising a very sexist kid with an attitude that is dangerous to women. Are you teaching this kid that a woman's role is to "scrub floors, cook meals and do laundry too?" Both of you should be sent to a Feminist Re-education camp at once. I find it amazing that a conservative like me has to point this out to you.

I pay people to clean my house. My wife doesn't work, but raising 3 kids is hard, and I'd rather spend $300 a month for someone to clean the place than to have a dirty home. There's really nothing wrong with paying someone else for their labor.

RayAmerica says

elliemae says

I asked him, what happens when you grow up and there’s no mom around to clean up after you? He said, “I’ll get a wife.”

Shocking statement …. SHOCKING. Sounds very much like you are raising a very sexist kid with an attitude that is dangerous to women. Are you teaching this kid that a woman’s role is to “scrub floors, cook meals and do laundry too?” Both of you should be sent to a Feminist Re-education camp at once. I find it amazing that a conservative like me has to point this out to you.

Yea, rayray, I allowed him to get away with this and hired a housekeeper for him immediately. He's 25 now and I still pay for a housekeeper, female of course, until he can find a subservient twit of a woman with no goals. Trouble is that he continually dates women who are intelligent, vibrant self-thinkers who would never consider their only job to be cleaning up after him. Apparently he values the woman over the services that she would provide to him as a maid.

I thought we raised him better, and his father & I are very disappointed. Damn!

elliemae says

RayAmerica says

elliemae says

I asked him, what happens when you grow up and there’s no mom around to clean up after you? He said, “I’ll get a wife.”

Shocking statement …. SHOCKING. Sounds very much like you are raising a very sexist kid with an attitude that is dangerous to women. Are you teaching this kid that a woman’s role is to “scrub floors, cook meals and do laundry too?” Both of you should be sent to a Feminist Re-education camp at once. I find it amazing that a conservative like me has to point this out to you.

Yea, rayray, I allowed him to get away with this and hired a housekeeper for him immediately. He’s 25 now and I still pay for a housekeeper, female of course, until he can find a subservient twit of a woman with no goals. Trouble is that he continually dates women who are intelligent, vibrant self-thinkers who would never consider their only job to be cleaning up after him. Apparently he values the woman over the services that she would provide to him as a maid.
I thought we raised him better, and his father & I are very disappointed. Damn!

Wait, you only provide him with a maid? At 25 he should have concubines to satisfy all his needs. You're failing in your parental duties. Hire some concubines. What are you teaching him by letting him date such independent, intelligent, vibrant, and self-aware women? Sheesh!

simchaland says

Wait, you only provide him with a maid? At 25 he should have concubines to satisfy all his needs. You’re failing in your parental duties. Hire some concubines. What are you teaching him by letting him date such independent, intelligent, vibrant, and self-aware women? Sheesh!

In his defense, he requires her to wear a French maid's uniform with fishnet stockings and high spiked heals. In my defense, as a parent hoping to instill some values beyond shallow stereotypes, I hired a grandmother in her 50's with plenty of cellulite. His girlfriend(s) seldom feel threatened by her.
It's called a "happy medium."

So - exactly what is a "dollar"?

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&rlz=1I7DMUS_en&defl=en&q=define:dollar&ei=kOe_S_HlGcL38AaQ8LXrCA&sa=X&oi=glossary_
definition&ct=title&ved=0CAYQkAE

"Dollar are a pop vocal duo from the UK, consisting of David Van Day and Thereza Bazar. The duo were successful in the late 1970s and 1980s.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dollar_(band)"

thanks for asking. :)

Nomograph says

Honest Abe says

So - exactly what is a “dollar”?

A dollar is a denomination of the currency we use to exchange goods and services. It’s sole purpose is to enable the exchange of goods and services.
You can buy gold with a keystroke in the free market. Free markets are volatile and have risks. Are you afraid of freedom, Abe?

I'll bet he yells at you & tells you how wrong you are, followed by accusing you of being a liberal elitist snob.

And the downside to defining a dollar as a specific amount of silver (or gold) would be ???

The Wizard of Oceana says

the perils of the free market.

I would love to hear how in your Orwellian false reality the Fed and its monopoly over money and interest rates is "the free market" Please do tell.

Also since you claim a gold standard would be a government run program as opposed to this Fed monopoly on "money", please explain how defining a dollar as a specific amount of gold or silver will cause an increase in the size and scope of government. Please do tell!

In fact how would requiring gold (or gold backed currency/account) for the payment of debts be any different than requiring Federal Reserve notes for the payment of debts? Please do tell!!!
Both the gold currency and Federal Reserve notes require that the government enforce a "standard." Under gold there would be ABSOLUTELY NO CHANGE IN THE SIZE OR SCOPE OF GOVERNMENT (other than the fact that government could not have access to freely printed federal reserve notes and would be forced to limit spending to equal actual revenues rather than monetizing debt. This is a win win scenario, you know the kind of scenario the Wizard of Nomo's ideology rejects and therefore he doesn't understand).

Honest Abe says

And the downside to defining a dollar as a specific amount of silver (or gold) would be ???

The downside is that the corporations and government won't have access to unlimited supplies of "money."

In other words, the "downside" is we would actually have a free market in currency.

Nomograph says

So why not just buy gold?

Owning a private hoard of gold probably won't do you any good if/when the dollar collapses. I would prefer not to see the day it collapses and the civil unrest or worse that will likely come with it. That is why I am calling for reform now, before the crisis fully manifests.

You still have not explained how the FED and its monopoly over money and interest rates is a "free market."

AdHominem says

You still have not explained how the FED and its monopoly over money and interest rates is a “free market.”

Are you defining the market as "the printing of currency"?

Of course there isn't a free market in currency printing. If we did, then anyone could print money in their basement....

Speaking of golden (silence being it, and all), how's the sore throat Nomo?

Trade ya - got another pen to clean out, full of dung. It'll clog the sinuses and the smell will linger for a day or two. Am I selling it to ya? How's about - it'll give you a sore back, arms, legs & neck. Even my eyelashes hurt from yesterday's go-round.

You'll get a bunch of inquisitive critters who are interested in what you're doing, hang around and try to steal your gloves or anything else you put down. This includes cute little birdies that are there to pick out the oats that weren't consumed in the first place. That'll be followed by cats, who want to eat the cute little birds, and who will hiss & howl at each other as they jockey for the best position. They'll also want to eat the cute little mice who have made a home in the aforementioned dung.

That'll be watched by the dogs - who "own" the cats and therefore don't usually chase them... but don't like commotion. Goats and horses watch all this with interest, and help out as best they can. This encourages neighborhood kids to come around, none of whom want to help but bring bb guns to shoot the cute little birds and mice who are uncovered. I'm cool with their shooting mice (guns pointed downward) but not the birds. And I make them help a little anyway, but have to give them pop or they'll get whiny.

This encourages their parents to stop by and watch, hang out with a beer and give constructive criticism. I love that part. It'll become like government work - 1 actual worker, 2 whiny assistants with different agendas, multiple interferences from outside influences who believe they have some ownership in the event, and a few supervisors.

The Wizard of Nomo says

But wait. You’ve been trying to convince everyone that gold is the only substance known to man that holds it’s value.

Gold and silver will hold value over the long term (decades). But its value is meaningless in the event of an accidental or orchestrated currency collapse and the chaos or worse that follows. In the event of a total breakdown (which is likely during a Federal Reserve note currency collapse) money will be the least of your concerns. That is the situation I would prefer to avoid. I would hate to see your toilet cleaner come over and clean you out (hint they won't be after your "money"), after beating you with a pipe wrench.

The Wizard Nomo says

free markets?

You claimed that people calling for a metal backed currency are afraid of the free market. That was YOU! I am still waiting to hear how in your Orwellian false reality forcing Americans to deal in Federal Reserve notes and the Fed's monopoly over currency and interest rates in the US is a "free market." Sounds more like totalitarianism in the real world.

Nomo - You're now a wizard. Congrats. That oughtta make you feel a little better today.

Nomograph says

Are you saying that gold prices are . . . unstable?

No, actually I am saying fiat currencies are unstable.

AdHominem says

You claimed that people calling for a metal backed currency are afraid of the free market.

If I'm forced to use a shiny metal as my currency, how is that a free market?

A better question is why did Roosevelt confiscate privately held gold coins in 1933?

I never said requiring any currency is a free market, you'll just have to believe Roosevelt and the Fed that gold currency is a free market. The Fed knows:

Gold and silver are hard currency, which cannot be debased except by fraud.

Fiat currencies are by nature a fraud and unstable.

That is why the Fed hates gold and silver. Commodity money exposes the fraud of their fiat Federal Reserve notes. Gold and silver reveal the results of their activity as lender of last resort and chief counterfeiter.

Every fiat currency has and eventually will collapse when the PtB push the limits of credibility too far. Fortunately gold as money cannot fail. That is why it has been used for millennia and remains today. Why do central banks and governments want any gold anyway if it is not a true currency? Why would Roosevelt confiscate Americans gold and then devalue their dollar?

WIZARD of NOMO: I am still waiting to hear how in your Orwellian false reality forcing Americans to deal in Federal Reserve notes and the Fed’s monopoly over currency and interest rates in the US is a “free market.” Sounds more like totalitarianism in the real world.

AdHominem says

A better question is why did Roosevelt confiscate privately held gold coins in 1933?

No, I like my question better. How about you answer that one?

As soon as The Wizard answers mine.AdHominem says

The Wizard of Nomo says

But wait. You’ve been trying to convince everyone that gold is the only substance known to man that holds it’s value.

Gold and silver will hold value over the long term (decades). But its value is meaningless in the event of an accidental or orchestrated currency collapse and the chaos or worse that follows. In the event of a total breakdown (which is likely during a Federal Reserve note currency collapse) money will be the least of your concerns. That is the situation I would prefer to avoid. I would hate to see your toilet cleaner come over and clean you out (hint they won’t be after your “money”), after beating you with a pipe wrench.
The Wizard Nomo says

free markets?

You claimed that people calling for a metal backed currency are afraid of the free market. That was YOU! I am still waiting to hear how in your Orwellian false reality forcing Americans to deal in Federal Reserve notes and the Fed’s monopoly over currency and interest rates in the US is a “free market.” Sounds more like totalitarianism in the real world.

Fact: there has never been a time in all of recorded history when gold or silver has been considered worthless.

Fact: over 300 fiat currencies in history have failed and collapsed.

Precious metals have intrinsic value that, throughout history, has been recognized the world over. Fiat paper money has value only in the minds of those that are willing to accept its promissory "value."

RayAmerica says

Fact: there has never been a time in all of recorded history when gold or silver has been considered worthless

That's not true. The dinosaurs did not value gold at all.

When De Gaulle showed up at the gold window to demand payment for his U.S. dollars in 1971, Nixon responded by closing the gold window. Why? Because he feared a run in the exchange of dollars to gold from the world market, exposing the fact that the U.S. currency was only partially supported by gold. Our currency back then was similar to how fractional reserve banking operates today. Only a very small fraction of gold existed to back the dollar. Now we have zero support, only a promise and the printing press that is ready to run 24/7 to "pay" off the huge debt obligations with currency that continues to lose value. How long do you think the financiers of the world will go along with this fraud? The day of reckoning is coming for the U.S. dollar and it is going to be unimaginably ugly.

tatupu70 says

That’s not true. The dinosaurs did not value gold at all.

You really should take this show on the road and get paid for it.

RayAmerica says

Fact: there has never been a time in all of recorded history when gold or silver has been considered worthless.

Ignoring dinosaurs for now, my problem with gold is that it does actually swing wildly in buying power. I was just looking at the graph of the buying power of gold in Ron Paul's book "End The Fed" and it looks like gold varies by a factor of ten in what it can buy. I think that's mostly because gold gets bid up too high during times of uncertainty.

So while gold does not fall to zero, you can still lose your shirt if you're fully invested in gold, and it's near the high end of its historical range.