patrick.net

simchaland says

They held an illegal meeting and held an illegal vote to crush unions against the will of the people.

The will of what people? Despite the thousands of protesters in the capital, the bulk of the tax paying citizens want public servants to pay there fair share. Don't be fooled by the loud mouths that will have you think they Republicans are destroying the middle class. The unions have been having there way with tax paying citizens way too long, it's about time they got some screwing of there own.

Really two pathetic posts full of pathetic excuses that don't hold water? That's the best that the conservatives can do to defend their push for absolute power over the rule of law?

This meeting was illegal according to the Wisconsin Open Meetings Law.

In 19.84 Public notice:
"(3) Public notice of every meeting of a governmental body shall be given at least 24 hours prior to the commencement of such meeting unless for good cause such notice is impossible or impractical, in which case shorter notice may be given, but in no case may the notice be provided less than 2 hours in advance of the meeting."

They gave a 10 minute notice. Ten minutes and democracy is crushed. The rule of law is violated. The will of the people isn't heard.

It is the will of the people that 24 hours public notice is to be given for open meetings. This was an open meeting. This meeting was illegal plain and simple.

This wasn't an emergency situation that would allow shorter notice.

The Rethuglicans in Wisconsin usurped the power of the people and stomped all over the rule of law.

This wasn't the first time. They sent out Wisconsin law enforcement to "force" the Democratic Senators to come back to the Capital which is an illegal use of Wisconsin law enforcement. This shows that Wisconsin is a police state at the moment in the vile hands of the Wisconsin Rethuglicans.

The latest illegal action from the Wisconsin Rethuglicans shows their disdain for the democratic process and the people of Wisconsin.

TechGromit says

The unions have been having there way with tax paying citizens way too long, it’s about time they got some screwing of there own.

Maybe he's right. Do your homework and see how overpaid the average union teacher is. IT's crazy the compensation that the thugs have been able to get teachers. In a few states teachers can even make over 45K per year. And it's all because of those pushy fucking union thugs.

Shocking.

Holy cow, here's the best explanation of all this I've read yet:

http://trueslant.com/juliansanchez/2009/12/16/the-politics-of-ressentiment/?source=patrick.net

"Even if conservatives retook power, they wouldn’t be able to provide a political solution to a psychological problem, assuming they’re not willing to go the Pol Pot route."

This one is also excellent:

http://www.juliansanchez.com/2010/11/04/patriotism-as-status-socialism-or-america-fk-yeah/?source=patrick.net

Thanks Patrick. It is interesting.

"We cede to the bogeyman cultural elites the power of stereotypical definition, so becoming the stereotype more fully and grotesquely is our only means of empowerment."

It fits, but I can't say that I the understand the psychology behind that.

I think I understand it. It's the reason gay pride parades are absolutely flaming even when those guys aren't like that in real life. Or why some blacks make a point of wearing outrageous jewelry at white cultural events.

Or why this convict tattooed his attitude on his forehead:

shrekgrinch says

“Read how the Rethuglicans of Wisconsin smash, spit on, and piss all over the democratic process”
What democratic process are you referring to? Wisconsin is a republic — as all states are because it is mandated by the US Constitution.
If you are referring to the support of the people instead (in a generic sense), I would respond that the people of Wisconsin PUT the Republicans in charge as a result of the last election. Just because you don’t like the outcome, doesn’t mean the Reps somehow don’t have a mandate from the voters. They have way more of a mandate than the Dems do, right now.
“They held an illegal meeting and held an illegal vote to crush unions against the will of the people.”
No they didn’t. The open meeting provision has exceptions for when circumstances make it impossible to conduct meetings that way…and AWOL Dem committee members purposely boycotting their duties in the Senate provided the Republicans with just that excuse. So, if you want to point the finger at those who are really responsible for giving the Reps a means of pulling this off, I’d recommend that you direct your ire to the Dems partying it up in Illinois.
Oh, and I didn’t exactly see you bitching about any of this when Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid essentially did the same thing in Congress, either. Not a peep.
“Workers have no rights. Your corporate masters own it all.”
They don’t have these rights at the federal level and the Dems were not too keen on granting said ‘rights’, either. In fact, Obama froze salaries for federal workes — something Gov. Walker could not do because of the collective bargaining noose in Wisconsin. Only 26 states have ‘right to slave for mafia-ridden unions’ laws, too. This is hardly a big deal.
And, collective bargaining and other union legal props are not ‘rights’. They are privileges like being allowed to drive a car or getting married.

First, despite the howls coming from the left, Wisconsin’s new policies on public-employee relations will not be especially unusual. Only 26 states have laws that grant collective-bargaining privileges to substantially all public employees. Twelve have laws that give collective bargaining to some workers, and twelve have no statewide collective-bargaining law at all, though some municipalities may grant bargaining rights in those states.
And as I have been pointing out until I get blue in the face, most federal civilian workers do engage in collective bargaining, but wages and benefits are excluded from that bargaining, rendering it very limited. Far from seeking to strengthen the hand of federal-employee unions, Barack Obama has sought to impose a two-year wage freeze on federal workers through the budget process. If the federal government had a bargaining law like the one Wisconsin has today, he would be unable to do that.
For this reason, I am skeptical of Democrats’ vigorous hopes to retake Wisconsin’s government and repeal this new law. There is no clamor among Democrats in Virginia to give collective-bargaining privileges to public workers, nor have Democrats in Washington, D.C., shown much interest in empowering federal workers’ unions. This is because Democratic officeholders, quite rationally, prefer to write their budgets themselves, rather than hand over control of employee-compensation costs to unions. Once Wisconsin lawmakers get used to the new status quo, I think this is likely to be true there, too — why would mayors, school-board members, and state legislators want to give up a powerful new budgeting tool they’ve been given?
from: http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/261815/what-s-next-wisconsin-josh-barro

“…ruthless lawless American hating scum.”
And, increasingly more and more conservatives do not regard Lefties as true Americans — given how Lefties pretty much HATE mostly what America really stands for as far as conservatives are concerned. So, I don’t think it is accurate to say that ‘they hate Americans’.
“And Republicans put the last nail in the coffin.”
Nah, the unions did it to themselves, as all successful unions eventually wind up doing. Just ask all those unemployed people in Flint, MI.
Oh, and given how the unions funnel close to 100% of their political contributions to Dems, provide massive ‘volunteer’ armies of undisclosed non-financial help to Dem political campaigns at election time…and send thugs to beat up people at Tea Party rallies, the greater mystery is that this is happening but why it hasn’t happened years ago, frankly.
So what is happening in Wisconsin and elsewhere is but a series of symptoms, not the cause of the public sector unions’ deathknell.
And lastly, this is only the beginning. Other states will follow through. It will get even worse as states and municipalities will just plain screw the unions out of promised pensions and bennies then the budgetary music stops. This will even happen in states where the Dems are effectively one-party dictatorships like California and New York. When the money won’t be there, it won’t be there. All the collective bargaining ‘rights’ in the world won’t save the unions — at all.

shrekgrinch says

simchaland says

They gave a 10 minute notice. Ten minutes and democracy is crushed. The rule of law is violated. The will of the people isn’t heard.

yeah, just how the House and Senate violated their own rules to ram though ObamaCare.
Were you screaming about that? no.
Plus, stop showing how uneducated you are by misusing the term ‘democracy’. Or…you just don’t know what that really means?
simchaland says

This wasn’t an emergency situation that would allow shorter notice.

Read your own damn link…section 19.87 Legislative meetings has exemptions.
simchaland says

The Rethuglicans in Wisconsin usurped the power of the people and stomped all over the rule of law.

That’s rich hearing a Libbie scream about the rule of law…when all you types did was piss all over it when Slick Willie was suborning perjury left and right to cover his butt because he got caught screwing around.
simchaland says

They sent out Wisconsin law enforcement to “force” the Democratic Senators to come back to the Capital which is an illegal use of Wisconsin law enforcement.

No it isn’t. Study up on your constitutions…from the federal on down. Law enforcement has been used to enforce quorum calls since before the nation was founded…rooted in British parliamentary law.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Call_of_the_house
Do you just type whatever crap that enters your brain, w/o even remotely educating yourself first?
marcus says

Maybe he’s right. Do your homework and see how overpaid the average union teacher is. IT’s crazy the compensation that the thugs have been able to get teachers. In a few states teachers can even make over 45K per year. And it’s all because of those pushy fucking union thugs.

So spins Marcus, the public sector union hack (California).
Hey Marcus! Here’s a hint for you: Taxpayers don’t pay for ‘the average’…they pay for the entire total. That’s what matters.

After 2 months of mourning my fathers passing I am glad to see your still here berating everyone with your extreme wealth of knowledge. When do you plan on using this knowledge to start helping people grow?

with a look like that, the use of words is kinda redundant.

As a past union man I say this: Part of my apprentice training was classes on union history. All of the work place safety and common work hour limits are directly thanks to union contracts. All of them. That being said, those days left with 8 track players, because GOV started forcing all employers to follow the same rules. So, from about 1980 on, the need of collective bargined work agreements lessened. The mob even got out of the union business by 1990. Public Employee ageements are not the same as private contracts - even under the exact same Internation Trade Union. For example, TEAMSTERS has a public employee group, that is just as seperate as a pipefitter is from a millwright.

In California, it is my understanding that you can not strike as a public employee, no matter what union you are part of. PLUS, In case of disaster or emergency you also MUST do your job if you supply an essential public service (like me, the water-sewer, master), no matter if you get paid or not. Private workers don't have any duty to act -- public employees do. And any good one will do their job no matter what.

My personal feelings about this subject are this: There is no worry needed by workers. The workforce can be jelled and speak as a voice, no matter what the entity wants.

Collective agreements that result in an MOU are not a regular contract. The entity can revisit the MOU anytime, and make any changes they need to if a problem comes up. Basically, in California anyways, nobody can hold an entity over a barrel. If there is a monitary issue, the entity adjusts the MOU as needed, any time, and everyone just keeps on working.

Working conditions, work hours, equal treatment, discipline -- most of these areas are well covered in labor law and in many cases the entity will enter into an MOU agreement in order to legally modify the labor law to suit it's needs.

I am a non-union worker that serves the public by supervising a non-profit, public owned, facility. But, I shop at a union supermarket, and pay more, because they pay a good wage and that makes for better workers and it shows when you go there.

Nobody can stop workers from organizing - without bullets. But, nobody can keep hungry men from crossing picketlines - without bullets.

My condolences Clarence. I think we are all different, so I wouldn't say exactly that I think I know how you feel, but then again, I think I do. In my opinion, dealing with these things is a very long term process.

marcus says

Do your homework and see how overpaid the average union teacher is

shrekgrinch says

Hey Marcus! Here’s a hint for you: Taxpayers don’t pay for ‘the average’…they pay for the entire total. That’s what matters.

Would it be correct to say that the average pay times the number of teachers would be the total ? (it's not a trick question.)

Bap33 says

Working conditions, work hours, equal treatment, discipline — most of these areas are well covered in labor law and in many cases the entity will enter into an MOU agreement in order to legally modify the labor law to suit it’s needs.

Which is why we dont need labor unions any longer. These unions are nothing more than roadblocks to progress in the forms of cost savings obtained from hiring/firing bad employees.

A company should be free to hire as many and layoff as many employees as is necessary to run its business and turn a profit. Now, I dont believe a company should be able to send those same jobs overseas.

marcus says

My condolences Clarence. I think we are all different, so I wouldn’t say exactly that I think I know how you feel, but then again, I think I do. In my opinion, dealing with these things is a very long term process.

I appreciate the kind thoughts.

shrekgrinch says

Oh, and everyone…Marcus here is posting from an entirely different thread, if you are confused by this sudden interjection

??? Can't tell whether you are confused, trolling, controlling or maybe all three (among other fine traits).

Here's the summary from this thread.

TechGromit says

The unions have been having there way with tax paying citizens way too long, it’s about time they got some screwing of there own.

marcus says

Maybe he’s right. Do your homework and see how overpaid the average union teacher is. IT’s crazy the compensation that the thugs have been able to get teachers. In a few states teachers can even make over 45K per year. And it’s all because of those pushy fucking union thugs.

shrekgrinch says

So spins Marcus, the public sector union hack (California).

Hey Marcus! Here’s a hint for you: Taxpayers don’t pay for ‘the average’…they pay for the entire total. That’s what matters.

marcus says

Would it be correct to say that the average pay times the number of teachers would be the total ? (it’s not a trick question.)

shrekgrinch says

Yes. But when people use averages to deflect people from the total — when it is the total that matters not the average — I call them on it.

Who cares if the average teacher salary was 50 cents? If they had enough teachers on the payroll, the total could become unsustainable, yes? (that WAS a trick question)

I'll just add this one more little bit of spin. In most places class sizes are now way too big.

So in summary class sizes are way too big, average teacher pay is low, bureaucracies have been pruned back too. Morons out there see that states are still in deficit, and because they are resentful little trolls, they therefore want to claim that too much is still being spent on public education.

Oh, and let’s not forget, "it’s all the fault of teh unions."

Did I miss anything ?

Idiot wind, blowing through the dust upon our shelves
We’re idiots, babe
It’s a wonder we can even feed ourselves

(Bob Dylan)

Clarence, sorry you've joined the "Children of Dead Dads Club." It truly sucks. It takes time to learn to live with it. I don't think we ever completely come to peace with it. In two months it will be 5 years since my Dad died. It's changed me in more ways than I ever would have imagined. Take time to mourn and take good care of yourself. Find others who have experienced this to get support. In my opinion others don't understand the level of pain we're in until they have this experience for themselves. You and your family are in my thoughts and prayers. May you find some comfort in the midst of your grief.

come on man lets not bait and divide. Republicans do not hate Democracy.

Republicans are finally being revealed as the vile and disgusting traitors they have always been. Karma's a bitch and she's about to collect on these scum sucking freaks.

shrekgrinch says

When they grow brains in the first place.

LOL.

ChrisLA says

Republicans do not hate Democracy.

“Political equality is against nature. Social equality is against nature. Economic equality is against nature. The idea of equality is subversive of order.”

-- Edmund Burke, patron saint of Conservatism.

Troy says

“Political equality is against nature. Social equality is against nature. Economic equality is against nature. The idea of equality is subversive of order.”
– Edmund Burke, patron saint of Conservatism.

Edmund Burke arrived at many of his political positions as a result of studying the fraud of the French Revolution. They too attempted to achieve egalitarianism, but found very quickly that the only way that is in fact achieved is through violence and force. The French Revolution does in fact prove that Burke's above statement, in reality, is in fact correct.

The reason they hate? Because it's the Grumpy Oldster Party, what more do you need?

The median age of a Fox News viewer is 65. They have PLENTY of time to obsess over politics and how the world isn't being run according to their ideas. And of course they have their children's inheritance and retirement money to throw into the gaping hungry maw of conservative politics. At least Fox is doing a little better than Limbaugh, who's typical listener is 67.

These folks have a serious problem a decade or so down the line unless they can hook in fresh grumpy oldsters as the current ones die off.

bob2356 says

Mostly true but you conveniently forgot to mention NAFTA and repeal of Glass Steagal were signed by a president named Clinton (D). Clinton while signing the NAFTA bill stated: “…NAFTA means jobs. American jobs, and good-paying American jobs. If I didn’t believe that, I wouldn’t support this agreement”

At least we have a non-globalist in the White House now. He promised over and over again during the campaign that he would make the "renegotiation of NAFTA & GATT a top priority" as soon as he took office. I just know, I can feel it, he's working and focusing in like a laser beam on NAFTA & GATT .... you just watch and see that “hope and change” is coming. As candidate Obama said: “We’re the people you all have been waiting for.”

simchaland says

Clarence, sorry you’ve joined the “Children of Dead Dads Club.” It truly sucks. It takes time to learn to live with it. I don’t think we ever completely come to peace with it. In two months it will be 5 years since my Dad died. It’s changed me in more ways than I ever would have imagined. Take time to mourn and take good care of yourself. Find others who have experienced this to get support. In my opinion others don’t understand the level of pain we’re in until they have this experience for themselves. You and your family are in my thoughts and prayers. May you find some comfort in the midst of your grief.

Thanks! He was 85...fought in 2 wars which is why I am at peace with it. Much appreciated.

bob2356 says

Mostly true but you conveniently forgot to mention NAFTA and repeal of Glass Steagal were signed by a president named Clinton (D). Clinton while signing the NAFTA bill stated: “…NAFTA means jobs. American jobs, and good-paying American jobs. If I didn’t believe that, I wouldn’t support this agreement”
The Dumbs are whore’s just like the Repugs, they just didn’t suck up to the big money guys as openly (the dumbs certainly suck up to the money guys, but except for Barney Frank they usually do it quietly). One has to truly admire the Repug strategy starting with Reagan. Take all the money you can from the oligarchy then play the god and guns card to get the poor white trash on board.

Great to see facts coming out on both the DEMS and REPUBS...when is Obama gonna re-draft NAFTA, GATT and WTO agreements again?