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Foreign investors snapping up choice Silicon Valley property


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2011 Jul 17, 1:39pm   16,415 views  60 comments

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http://www.mercurynews.com/top-stories/ci_18495547

Interesting paragraphs cited below:

Foreign buyers are contributing to the large number of absentee purchases in the current South Bay housing market. Absentee buyers, which can include investors who don't intend to live in the house, accounted for nearly 15 percent of all sales in Santa Clara and San Mateo counties in June, according to DataQuick, the real estate information service.

Michael Riese, a realtor with Alain Pinel in Los Gatos, described two types of foreign buyers in the valley these days: One has a purely business mentality, seeking a short- or long-term investment. Another is the newly hired tech executive, "coming from places with bigger problems than we have, seeing a home purchase in the U.S. as a solid investment, compared with what they may otherwise put their cash in back home."

Charmaine Wang, the first agent in Shanghai for the Bay Area's Intero Real Estate Services, estimates that "hundreds" of mainland Chinese bought property in Santa Clara County within the past year. They're buying "in all the high-end neighborhoods -- Palo Alto, Los Altos Hills, Atherton," she said.

The buyers are "very private people," she said. Property records won't reflect the offshore ownership, and they are unlikely to share their stories publicly.

Trulia, the online real estate information service, reports a big jump in searches for Silicon Valley real estate from other countries. Searches for property in Cupertino were up 90 percent in the first quarter of this year from a year earlier, Trulia reported. Palo Alto was up 121 percent; Los Altos Hills up 182 percent; Atherton up 68 percent and San Jose up 86 percent.

#housing

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11   corntrollio   2011 Jul 18, 4:49am  

cloud13 says

same with Indian too.......An acre of land in Punjab is selling for 200K, Can you imagine if the guy has 40 of those and is in silicon valley

I doubt ALL land in Punjab is worth anything close to that amount. You're probably talking about certain acreage that is near projects run by the government of Punjab. So maybe there are a lucky few, but these people aren't Silicon Valley-types. They are farmers and don't have 40 of them.

12   corntrollio   2011 Jul 18, 4:50am  

Here is the raw data. You should draw your own conclusions instead of listening to used house salesmen:

http://www.julianalee.com/reinfo/monthly.shtml

13   HydroCabron   2011 Jul 18, 4:53am  

Yawn.

This is one of the standard sub-stages of the stage of denial during a market collapse: "Foreign cash buyers will save us!"

Heard this in the early 1990s: I don't believe that turned out well.

To quote Irvine Renter at IHB: "It's a myth that foreign cash buyers are smart money that purchases bargains. FCBs are generally dumb money that overpays for declining assets."

14   bubblesitter   2011 Jul 18, 5:22am  

Any investment in current US markets is a recipe for disaster.

15   Nobody   2011 Jul 18, 11:52am  

Wa? Chinese don't treat the real estate like
investment? Give me a break. Chinese are
notorious for doing exactly that.

16   bubblesitter   2011 Jul 18, 12:32pm  

Nobody says

Wa? Chinese don't treat the real estate like

investment? Give me a break. Chinese are

notorious for doing exactly that.

Why don't you say US bubble was caused by Chinese and NOT by US banks,realtors,government,etc. :)

17   B.A.C.A.H.   2011 Jul 18, 1:18pm  

HydroCabron says

This is one of the standard sub-stages of the stage of denial during a market collapse: "Foreign cash buyers will save us!"

They won't save "us", but they will keep scooping up residences they covet in The Fortresses along the Left Coast, like those articles that recently appeared about Vancouver.

18   Hysteresis   2011 Jul 18, 1:50pm  

Sybrib says

HydroCabron says

This is one of the standard sub-stages of the stage of denial during a market collapse: "Foreign cash buyers will save us!"

They won't save "us", but they will keep scooping up residences they covet in The Fortresses along the Left Coast, like those articles that recently appeared about Vancouver.

palo alto prices are down from the peak.

i wonder why that is if there really are so many foreign buyers .

19   Nobody   2011 Jul 18, 2:16pm  

Hysteresis,

Are you telling me foreign buyers are getting picky?
How dare they.

20   cloud13   2011 Jul 18, 2:35pm  

corntrollio says

cloud13 says

same with Indian too.......An acre of land in Punjab is selling for 200K, Can you imagine if the guy has 40 of those and is in silicon valley

I doubt ALL land in Punjab is worth anything close to that amount. You're probably talking about certain acreage that is near projects run by the government of Punjab. So maybe there are a lucky few, but these people aren't Silicon Valley-types. They are farmers and don't have 40 of them.

you seem like an Indian....

How do you know ? There are more Audis , beamers and mercedes in Ludhaina and Chandigarh then i see here in San Jose/Los Gatos/Campbell.... and do you know even the Household cooks and nannies from Punjab have few acres back home. Sooner or later they will offload that and ofcourse buy here

21   thomas.wong1986   2011 Jul 18, 3:23pm  

cloud13 says

Sooner or later they will offload that and ofcourse buy here

Are you sure it isnt going to be in maybe Monaco ?

22   cloud13   2011 Jul 19, 1:42am  

Thomas the thing is they have all the relatives in North America , It's like a 2nd home to them- They won't go any place elese.

Also Okaay another thing i can tell you that most students who do MS, MBA here except IITians are sons and daughters of High ranked government officials and once they stable in their jobs for few years , Their dads would send them money and these prices are really peanuts for them considering the black money which is foating around in India.

Guess same must be true for chineese.

23   edvard2   2011 Jul 19, 1:57am  

First of all, any story that contains the term: " Snapping up" to me is immediately suspect. Secondly, where do these stories come from? Is it me or do stories of mysterious foreign buyers " Snapping up" real estate in the US crop up like clockwork every summer?

24   bmwman91   2011 Jul 19, 4:20am  

"Snapping up" is sort of a funny term.

Besides, the Chinese have bought-out huge swaths of SF/Daly City, Point Richmond & Cupertino. I will be marrying one whose family has properties here. From what I can tell, they are wealthy & generally just like to have a house here. Their rental endeavors haven't seemed to be great investments, but it seems that a lot of them have enough money that they don't care anyway.

I don't think that there's too much concern to be warranted about foreigners buying up stuff in mid- to lower-end areas. For the wealthy foreigners, property here is as much a status-symbol as anything.

25   thomas.wong1986   2011 Jul 19, 4:22am  

cloud13 says

are sons and daughters of High ranked government officials and once they stable in their jobs for few years

Where back home corruption is rampant... and billions swindled and money laundered to overseas bank accounts.

Odd how some damn US Bankers/Wall Street/Madoff and embrace with open arms thieves/swindlers who used fake names/passports and most likely denied they were members of the Communist Party.

This isnt going to last and they will be eventually sent back, and their homes liquidated.

When something is too good to be true, it usually is..

China's Great Swindle: How Public Officials Stole $120 Billion and Fled the Country
http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,2079756,00.html#ixzz1SZo8TyxG

26   thomas.wong1986   2011 Jul 19, 4:32am  

bmwman91 says

Besides, the Chinese have bought-out huge swaths of SF/Daly City, Point Richmond & Cupertino.

They were here long before 1990.. In Cupertino 1 out of 4 were Asian back then. This is all nonsense... next you will saying we will an area in SF called "ChinaTown".

27   bayhousehunter   2011 Jul 19, 4:33am  

"Snapping up" is definitely true in Saratoga and Palo Alto Hills as far as Chinese high end buyers are concerned. I attend several open houses in these towns and to my knowledge several of them have been snapped up by "all cash" buyers from mainland China in the past 8 months that I have been looking there. As examples, here are the latest 2 properties that went off the market in the past few weeks (in my knowledge) to "Chinese cash buyers" - they were snapped up within 1-2 weeks of listing and according to the listing agents they got "all cash" offers from mainland china buyers.

http://www.redfin.com/CA/Saratoga/13434-Old-Oak-Way-95070/home/1742989
http://www.redfin.com/CA/Saratoga/13834-Upper-Hill-Dr-95070/home/909334

28   corntrollio   2011 Jul 19, 4:45am  

cloud13 says

How do you know ? There are more Audis , beamers and mercedes in Ludhaina and Chandigarh then i see here in San Jose/Los Gatos/Campbell.... and do you know even the Household cooks and nannies from Punjab have few acres back home. Sooner or later they will offload that and ofcourse buy here

Because when someone makes a ridiculous claim, I call it out. People make all kinds of absurd claims like this. The German car thing -- if Chandigarh has more German cars, it's because Chandigarh has more than a million people and Los Gatos is a small foothill town of 30K people, not because people are more rich there. But it's a silly comparison and probably not even true despite that fact.

Again, not all land in Punjab is worth that. Only a limited amount of land is -- that which is coveted by the government of Punjab for special projects.

And on top of that, you're telling me cooks and nannies have village land that they can sell for that much per acre. Riiiiight.

29   corntrollio   2011 Jul 19, 4:51am  

bayhousehunter says

they were snapped up within 1-2 weeks of listing and according to the listing agents they got "all cash" offers from mainland china buyers.

BS on that first house. 13434 Old Oak Way was first listed on May 3 and went pending on July 12. The price was changed on June 25, so it didn't even go pending in less than 2 weeks after the price change. It has not sold yet.

13834 Upper Hill Dr went for below asking, although it did go pending quite quickly and sold quite quickly:

Jun 21, 2011 Sold (MLS) (Sold) $1,650,000
Jun 17, 2011 Sold (Public Records) $1,640,000
Jun 11, 2011 Pending (Pending (Do Not Show))
May 31, 2011 Listed (Active) $1,700,000

No idea if either buyer is from Mainland China. I doubt either you or the listing agent would know either.

30   corntrollio   2011 Jul 19, 4:53am  

cloud13 says

Also Okaay another thing i can tell you that most students who do MS, MBA here except IITians are sons and daughters of High ranked government officials and once they stable in their jobs for few years , Their dads would send them money and these prices are really peanuts for them considering the black money which is foating around in India.

Not true. I have met plenty of Indians with an MS or MBA degree here, and none of them have been sons or daughters of high-ranked government officials. You'd think if "most" are that I would have run across one.

31   bubblesitter   2011 Jul 19, 5:08am  

bayhousehunter says

according to the listing agents they got "all cash" offers from mainland china buyers.

New BS introduced by realtors. Loan problems from US banks? No problem we have got "all cash" offers from mainland China buyers. There are always exceptions but it is very hard to believe that all "all cash" offers are from mainland China buyers.

32   bayhousehunter   2011 Jul 19, 5:17am  

corntrollio says

bayhousehunter says

they were snapped up within 1-2 weeks of listing and according to the listing agents they got "all cash" offers from mainland china buyers.

BS on that first house. 13434 Old Oak Way was first listed on May 3 and went pending on July 12. The price was changed on June 25, so it didn't even go pending in less than 2 weeks after the price change. It has not sold yet.

13834 Upper Hill Dr went for below asking, although it did go pending quite quickly and sold quite quickly:

Jun 21, 2011 Sold (MLS) (Sold) $1,650,000

Jun 17, 2011 Sold (Public Records) $1,640,000

Jun 11, 2011 Pending (Pending (Do Not Show))

May 31, 2011 Listed (Active) $1,700,000

No idea if either buyer is from Mainland China. I doubt either you or the listing agent would know either.

corntrollio, this is not BS. If you choose not to believe it, that is fine. I know what I know because I was interested in placing offers on these 2 properties and had lengthy discussions with both the listing agents and decided to walk away because of the "all cash China buyer" factor. Both the agents got back to me to let me know that the properties were "off market" within 1-2 weeks of either the listing or price reduction. If you look at Los Altos Hills or PA Hills area, there are several similar scenarios as I have looked, liked some houses and failed to make offers against "all cash buyers" - I am just one person looking there during weekends when I am not busy, but there might be others who know of more such cases.
I am looking forward to coming across anecdotes of bidding wars between "all cash overseas buyer" and "Facebook, Zynga buyer" in 2012 in these coveted pockets where I am sure I will still be house hunting in the next few years looking for a "good deal".

33   edvard2   2011 Jul 19, 5:22am  

Once again, I can't help but think that stories like these are totally bogus. I say this because all during the bubble this was one of many reasons used to explain the higher prices- because gosh darn dontcha' know them foreigner's are buyin' up all th' real estate with trunkloads of cash!

Again- totally bogus.

34   OO   2011 Jul 19, 5:28am  

This one was sold all-cash to a mainland Chinese, I know of the buyer through a friend.

http://www.redfin.com/homes-for-sale#!lat=37.31763403181407&long=-122.05972280685907&market=sanfrancisco&sf=&sold_within_days=365&uipt=1&v=6&zoomLevel=16

35   corntrollio   2011 Jul 19, 5:34am  

bayhousehunter says

corntrollio, this is not BS.

Except that you are objectively proven wrong with respect to the first house. It did not go pending in less than 2 weeks after its price change, and it was on the market for over a month before it went pending at all.

bayhousehunter says

If you look at Los Altos Hills or PA Hills area

Why don't we do that? All cash offers should close very very quickly, right? Let's look at just single-family homes, since that's typically what we're talking about:

http://www.julianalee.com/reinfo/sold-LA.htm

I see two houses that closed in 1 day (definitely all cash), one that closed in 4, 1 in 12, and 1 in 6. That's 5 out of 45. Of those 5, one sold below asking, one at asking, and 3 above asking.

What about PA?

http://www.julianalee.com/reinfo/sold-PA.htm

1 in 15 days, 1 in 19 days, 3 in 21 days. 5 out of 54, 4 of which are above asking, 1 below.

Everyone says stuff like this, no one can prove it.

36   corntrollio   2011 Jul 19, 5:36am  

OO says

This one was sold all-cash to a mainland Chinese, I know of the buyer through a friend.

http://www.redfin.com/homes-for-sale#!lat=37.31763403181407&long=-122.05972280685907&market=sanfrancisco&sf=&sold_within_days=365&uipt=1&v=6&zoomLevel=16

Sold well below asking and took 85 days to close (cash does not take 85 days to close -- this was on the market for almost 3 months):

40) 10346 Scenic Bl SFR Apr-06 $1,550,000 $1,399,000 $1,440,000 2729 9000 Jun-30 85 81114882

37   ch_tah2   2011 Jul 19, 5:53am  

corntrollio says

Why don't we do that? All cash offers should close very very quickly, right? Let's look at just single-family homes, since that's typically what we're talking about:

http://www.julianalee.com/reinfo/sold-LA.htm

I see two houses that closed in 1 day (definitely all cash), one that closed in 4, 1 in 12, and 1 in 6. That's 5 out of 45. Of those 5, one sold below asking, one at asking, and 3 above asking.

What about PA?

http://www.julianalee.com/reinfo/sold-PA.htm

1 in 15 days, 1 in 19 days, 3 in 21 days. 5 out of 54, 4 of which are above asking, 1 below.

Everyone says stuff like this, no one can prove it.

You keep posting these links to prove your point, yet your analysis is terrible. Your information does not provide enough detail to tell you which houses were not cash offers. If you further qualify it with the limitation of "selling within 2 weeks of list/change price," that's one thing. But in your post, you limited it to "cash offers" only, and from your data, you have no idea if all or only a few of those houses sold to cash offers.

38   bayhousehunter   2011 Jul 19, 6:04am  

corntrollio says - "All cash offers should close very very quickly, right?"

Just trying to learn more about the closing process - Do contingencies, inspections etc take time for "all cash" offers or not? What if there was termite damage, water damage, discrepancies etc?
Is it right to say that all cash offers close "very very" quickly every single time?

39   corntrollio   2011 Jul 19, 6:47am  

bayhousehunter says

Just trying to learn more about the closing process - Do contingencies, inspections etc take time for "all cash" offers or not? What if there was termite damage, water damage, discrepancies etc?
Is it right to say that all cash offers close "very very" quickly every single time?

All cash means no contingencies. Sometimes all cash also means that the person gets a mortgage but has cash-on-hand to cover the transaction. Sometimes it means the person takes out a mortgage after the transaction is complete. All cash should always close very quickly because there are no contingencies.

40   corntrollio   2011 Jul 19, 6:48am  

ch_tah2 says

If you further qualify it with the limitation of "selling within 2 weeks of list/change price," that's one thing. But in your post, you limited it to "cash offers" only, and from your data, you have no idea if all or only a few of those houses sold to cash offers.

All cash means a quick closing. Why would a cash offer take 60 days to close?

I present data, and not just BS manipulated data you get from realtors. Everyone else presents rumor from used house salesmen trying to whip up the market. Whom should you believe?

41   ch_tah2   2011 Jul 19, 7:01am  

corntrollio says

All cash means a quick closing. Why would a cash offer take 60 days to close?

You only have DOM in your data. You don't have the date that the house went pending. Therefore, you have no idea how many days these sales take to close. You have incomplete data and are doing exactly what you are complaining about, spreading mere rumors with no basis of fact.

Again, if you want to limit your statement that the data does not show many "cash offers within 2 weeks of listing" or "cash offers above asking" then you are correct. But every single house on your lists could be a cash offer for all you know.

42   corntrollio   2011 Jul 19, 8:26am  

ch_tah2 says

Again, if you want to limit your statement that the data does not show many "cash offers within 2 weeks of listing" or "cash offers above asking" then you are correct. But every single house on your lists could be a cash offer for all you know.

Look again at the original claim by bayhousehunter:

they were snapped up within 1-2 weeks of listing and according to the listing agents they got "all cash" offers from mainland china buyers.

The original statement said within 1-2 weeks. If I went through the almost 100 houses, I'm sure I could find out quite quickly when all these houses went pending. So could you.

Again, the difference is that I'm giving raw data that anyone can look at and I'm being fully transparent. Anyone can go on MLS, Redfin, Zillow, Trulia, and look these houses up to figure out when they went pending. Compare that to the typical used house salesman who lies through their teeth about everything and thrives on rumor and innuendo.

43   ch_tah2   2011 Jul 19, 8:39am  

Yes, I know what the original statement by bayhousehunter was. He was talking about 2 specific houses and several that occurred in LA and PA, not the whole market.

Look at your statements. You clearly say 5 are cash of 45 in LA and 5 out of 54 in PA. You cannot fairly say that without conditional language. Your raw data is fine; your additional comments are pure speculation. We went through this before; stop misinforming people by suggesting that DOM is equivalent to the time to close.

corntrollio says

Why don't we do that? All cash offers should close very very quickly, right? Let's look at just single-family homes, since that's typically what we're talking about:

http://www.julianalee.com/reinfo/sold-LA.htm

I see two houses that closed in 1 day (definitely all cash), one that closed in 4, 1 in 12, and 1 in 6. That's 5 out of 45. Of those 5, one sold below asking, one at asking, and 3 above asking.

What about PA?

http://www.julianalee.com/reinfo/sold-PA.htm

1 in 15 days, 1 in 19 days, 3 in 21 days. 5 out of 54, 4 of which are above asking, 1 below.

Everyone says stuff like this, no one can prove it.

44   corntrollio   2011 Jul 19, 8:51am  

ch_tah2 says

Look at your statements. You clearly say 5 are cash of 45 in LA and 5 out of 54 in PA. You cannot fairly say that without conditional language. Your raw data is fine; your additional comments are pure speculation. We went through this before; stop misinforming people by suggesting that DOM is equivalent to the time to close.

Whenever someone says the majority of houses are being sold in 1-2 weeks and they are closing all cash, it's easy to look at DOM to show they are wrong. Again, look at the original claim. You conceded in a prior thread that DOM was a good proxy for figuring out if something sold within a week of listing and for all cash. We're extending by a week here.

Moreover, I invite EVERYONE who claims a house sold within a week or even two weeks and for all cash to post the address here on Patrick.net so everyone can evaluate based on available data, rather than relying on rumor.

45   ch_tah2   2011 Jul 19, 8:55am  

As an example of how your data provides the partial story,
http://www.redfin.com/CA/Los-Altos/1420-Miravalle-Ave-94024/home/23471484
says DOM 208 on your julianalee website. (as a side question - isn't she a used house salesperson - why is her data necessarily valid?)
Now using your logic, that's clearly not a cash purchase because DOM is greater than ~20.
Yet, when you look at redfin, you see it went pending on June 21, 2011 and was sold June 27, 2011 - 6 days to close.
So it was clearly a cash purchase.

46   ch_tah2   2011 Jul 19, 8:59am  

corntrollio says

majority of houses are being sold in 1-2 weeks and they are closing all cash

Your argument would be correct if someone said that. I don't see anyone saying that above.

corntrollio says

You conceded in a prior thread that DOM was a good proxy for figuring out if something sold within a week of listing and for all cash. We're extending by a week here.

Yes, when you put a time constraint on it, DOM can be used. I think I've made that pretty clear in every post on this thread. For some reason, you won't just say that. And my example above shows how wrong your analysis can be when using only DOM without a time constraint.

47   Clara   2011 Jul 19, 9:03am  

Inflation in USD makes foreigners have more purchasing power. We are screwed.

48   corntrollio   2011 Jul 19, 9:44am  

ch_tah2 says

Your argument would be correct if someone said that. I don't see anyone saying that above.

Again, I implore you to look at the original quote. It says 1-2 weeks. You have to read my response in context. I have shown this multiple times whenever someone insists on fast sale + all cash -- there are only a limited number of candidates for which those claims could be true, but it's not guaranteed because MLS data isn't perfect. I don't know why you're beating this to death.

(as a side question - isn't she a used house salesperson - why is her data necessarily valid?)

She is providing data, not rumor. She should be commended for that, rather than acting like the herd of useless realtors.

ch_tah2 says

As an example of how your data provides the partial story,
http://www.redfin.com/CA/Los-Altos/1420-Miravalle-Ave-94024/home/23471484
says DOM 208 on your julianalee website. (as a side question - isn't she a used house salesperson - why is her data necessarily valid?)
Now using your logic, that's clearly not a cash purchase because DOM is greater than ~20.
Yet, when you look at redfin, you see it went pending on June 21, 2011 and was sold June 27, 2011 - 6 days to close.
So it was clearly a cash purchase.

No, that's an example of how my data helps elucidate the story. Look at the history -- this did not sell for "over asking" or "within a week or two of listing" and it sold at almost a $300K discount. It took 6+ months. I don't see anyone on Patrick.net telling me about this house:

Jun 27, 2011 Sold (MLS) (Sold) $2,400,000
Jun 21, 2011 Pending (Pending (Do Not Show))
Jun 15, 2011 Relisted (Active)
Jun 15, 2011 Pending (Pending Without Release)
Apr 27, 2011 Price Changed $2,495,000
Mar 22, 2011 Price Changed $2,645,000
Dec 02, 2010 Listed (Active) $2,695,000

I will note that it might even be a 12 day escrow, because that drop out of escrow and back in could have been the same person, although that still suggests cash.

Another good use of data:You can also see that while 1396 Pritchett was a *candidate* for being all cash and sold within 2 weeks, that's not the whole story.

28) 1396 Pritchett Ct SFR Jun-06 $1,800,000 $1,800,000 $1,782,500 2876 11880 Jun-07 1 81125343

1 day escrow. However, you can see the agent notes that say pre-emptive sale, comp purposes only:

http://www.redfin.com/CA/Los-Altos/1396-Pritchett-Ct-94024/home/1488045

This house was never on market, and the used house salesman only put it on MLS as a data point. There is no indication of escrow or anything else. Again, I'm not saying low DOM is a *sufficient* criterion to determine all cash + within 2 weeks, but rather that it's a *necessary* criterion. In the above examples, it means *at most* 5 houses could have been all cash and sold within 2 weeks.

By the way, ditto for 803 Mora Dr -- 1 day escrow for comp purposes only, and it had actually been listed since May 2009, but it wasn't listed on MLS at the time of the sale:

http://www.redfin.com/CA/Los-Altos/803-Mora-Dr-94024/home/1087925

It also sold for $2.483M, not $2.5M -- a limitation of MLS here. This was a candidate, doesn't meet the standard.

427 Paco Dr is also suspect. It had been listed back in 2009 and could have been an off-market sale that was listed on MLS just for comps. It only has one picture, so it was probably not a bona fide listing this June. Again, was a candidate, but was probably not all cash within a week or two.
http://www.redfin.com/CA/Los-Altos/427-Paco-Dr-94024/home/1527782

49   ch_tah2   2011 Jul 19, 9:49am  

corntrollio says

Again, I implore you to look at the original quote. It says 1-2 weeks.

Yes, and he also said 2 houses, not "majority."

edited:

You can use my redfin example how you choose. Whether a house sells above or below list has nothing to do with my point. What the example clearly shows is that looking at DOM tells you little in terms of cash offer or not. I'm glad you finally revised your message to include a time factor.

50   corntrollio   2011 Jul 19, 9:52am  

ch_tah2 says

I'm glad you finally revised your message.

No revision. Just look at prior posts on Patnet. Entirely consistent with what I said before. We had this argument before and you're still fighting. Anyone else is free to check out the prior thread where ch_tah conceded: http://patrick.net/?p=822028#comment-745439

ch_tah2 says

Yes, and he also said 2 houses, not "majority."

Yeah, and he was dead wrong about one of the houses. I nonetheless commend him for pointing at 2 specific houses even though he followed rumor.

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