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Progress is being made toward gun control

By tovarichpeter   2013 Jan 5, 9:29am   3,214 views   19 comments   watch (0)   quote      

http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/white-house-weighs-broad-gun-control-agenda-in-wake-of-newtown-shootings/2013/01/05/d281efe0-5682-11e2-bf3e-76c0a789346f_story.html

Vice President Biden, center, leads the first meeting of the working group on gun violence on Dec. 20. From left, hes joined by Attorney General Eric Holder, National Association of Police Organizations President Thomas Nee, Philadelphia Police Commissioner Charles Ramsey, Homeland Security Secretary Janet Napolitano, Vice President Chief of Staff Bruce Reed and other officials.

Comments 1-19 of 19     Last »

1   Raw     2013 Jan 5, 9:43am  ↑ like   ↓ dislike (1)   quote    

Best news I have heard all week.
Ban all guns except one for the NRA. With luck they will shoot themselves with it.

2   Robert Sproul   17/17 = 100% civil   2013 Jan 6, 1:41am  ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote    

Many more people were killed last year with hammers and clubs than with all types of rifle, of which "assault" rifles are a subset.
The last ban had zero effect on any crime statistic.
You are being propagandized.

Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the act depriving a whole nation of arms as the blackest.Gandhi

3   Raw     2013 Jan 6, 2:23am  ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote    

Nuclear bombs have killed less people than hammers and clubs, so lets give access to anyone who wants one
When are we gonna grow up?

4   Robert Sproul   17/17 = 100% civil   2013 Jan 6, 2:42am  ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote    

Raw-
I am all grown up, and I would rather be responsible for my own defense, against any type of aggression, than rely on a civil service employee. Per the Supreme Court, the police are under no legal obligation to physically intercede to defend me from any assault. They don't protect, they investigate crime after the fact. And they aren't all that good at that job.
You obviously trust your government more than i do. I fear the metastasising security state, militarized civilian police, and loss of posse comitatus in an environment of perpetual warfare. Not to mention the 30,000 drones approved by the FAA for deployment in America. In order to increase domestic authority the civilian population must be disarmed, it has happened repeatedly through out history.

5   Raw     2013 Jan 6, 3:04am  ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote    

Call it Crazy says

Raw says

When are we gonna grow up?

Why don't you spend 6 minutes and watch the video in #4...

Robert Sproul says

Raw-

I am all grown up, and I would rather be responsible for my own defense, against any type of aggression, than rely on a civil service employee. Per the Supreme Court, the police are under no legal obligation to physically intercede to defend me from any assault. They don't protect, they investigate crime after the fact. And they aren't all that good at that job.

You obviously trust your government more than i do. I fear the metastasising security state, militarized civilian police, and loss of posse comitatus in an environment of perpetual warfare. Not to mention the 30,000 drones approved by the FAA for deployment in America. In order to increase domestic authority the civilian population must be disarmed, it has happened repeatedly through out history.

That is how the Wild Wild West was 300 years ago. Today, we have a police force that does do everything to protect the citizen.
If you see someone lurking in the neighborhood and call 911, a patrol car will come right over to prevent a crime.
You do not need to fear the government...they are there for us.
"A government of the people, for the people, by the people."
Every citizen arming themselves with assault weapons to protect themselves is impractical and much too dangerous in this day and age.

6   Robert Sproul   17/17 = 100% civil   2013 Jan 6, 3:35am  ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote    

The Pre-columbian Wild Wild West?
"a patrol car will come right over to prevent a crime."
"A government of the people, for the people, by the people."
You don't know anything about the world you live in.

Learning is not compulsory, neither is survival. W. Edwards Demming

7   Peter P   78/78 = 100% civil   2013 Jan 6, 3:38am  ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote    

A great quote from Fire Fly:

A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned.

8   Raw     2013 Jan 6, 3:40am  ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote    

The Professor says

I imagine the possibility of armed occupants stops a lot of home burglarys and robberies.

Other countries do not have this problem, why should we? Lets mimick the successful countries.
Besides, a dog is a better deterrent to a burglar than a gun.

9   Raw     2013 Jan 6, 3:47am  ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote    

The Professor says

Raw says

That is how the Wild Wild West was 300 years ago.

You do know that the "wild west" was 130 years ago don't you? The bill of rights, including the second amendment which confirmed our right to protect ourselves, was ratified 220 years ago.

"Those that forget their history are condemned to repeat it"

So lets learn from history and prevent another massacre. Assault weapons aka "weapons of mass slaughter" did not exist when the 2nd amendment was written. Lets amend the constitution to reflect fast changing technology and lifestyles.

10   Raw     2013 Jan 6, 3:51am  ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote    

The Professor says

Raw says

Lets mimick the successful countries.

What countries are "successful"?

We do have home invasions. The police does not arrive on time to protect us. A dog is easily dispatched.

Cliche but true, "If you outlaw guns only outlaws will have guns".

How many outlaws and gun murders does UK, Japan, Australia, France, Germany etc etc etc have?
Lets outlaw guns and start bringing down gun deaths. Right now we are the laughing stock of the world.

11   Robert Sproul   17/17 = 100% civil   2013 Jan 6, 4:00am  ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote    

The murder rate in this country is plummeting, it is 1/2 of what it was 20 years ago. Black on black crime in urban settings account for 1/2 of the gun murders in America. Removing that from the data set results in a gun crime rate equivalent to gun controlled Europe or Canada.
Per 100,000:
• Idaho (2.3, was 1.4 in 2010)
• Finland (2.2)
• Oregon (2.1)
• Maine (2.0)
• Utah (1.9)
• Belgium (1.7)
• Canada (1.6)
• Iowa (1.5)
• Greece (1.5)
• Minnesota (1.4)
• New Hampshire, Vermont, Rhode Island (1.3)
• UK and Portugal (1.2)
• Hawaii (1.2)
• France (1.1)
• New Hampshire (1.0 in 2010)
The idea that infringing on the civil liberties of most Americans is the best solution to the social ills of urban, inner cities is absurd. Maybe another agenda is being served.

12   Raw     2013 Jan 6, 4:09am  ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote    

The Professor says

Raw says

Lets amend the constitution to reflect fast changing technology and lifestyles.

Would you still allow single shot muzzle loading muskets?

Yes, with a background chek....training...heavy fees....and full liability for their owners.

13   Raw     2013 Jan 6, 4:25am  ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote    

Robert Sproul says

The murder rate in this country is plummeting, it is 1/2 of what it was 20 years ago. Black on black crime in urban settings account for 1/2 of the gun murders in America. Removing that from the data set results in a gun crime rate equivalent to gun controlled Europe or Canada.

Per 100,000:

• Idaho (2.3, was 1.4 in 2010)

• Finland (2.2)

• Oregon (2.1)

• Maine (2.0)

• Utah (1.9)

• Belgium (1.7)

• Canada (1.6)

• Iowa (1.5)

• Greece (1.5)

• Minnesota (1.4)

• New Hampshire, Vermont, Rhode Island (1.3)

• UK and Portugal (1.2)

• Hawaii (1.2)

• France (1.1)

• New Hampshire (1.0 in 2010)

The idea that infringing on the civil liberties of most Americans is the best solution to the social ills of urban, inner cities is absurd. Maybe another agenda is being served.

This is nothing but cherry picking statistics to prove a point.

14   Raw     2013 Jan 6, 4:30am  ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote    

The Professor says

Eliminate one and the others are not far behind.

Professor, there is a reason why the constitution allows for amendments. So that we can keep pace with changing times.
If we do not amend the consttution when needed, it will become a dinosaur.

15   Robert Sproul   17/17 = 100% civil   2013 Jan 6, 5:08am  ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote    

Raw says

This is nothing but cherry picking statistics to prove a point.

Cherry picked how? They are just the numbers.
As I have noticed in many other threads Raw's typical rebuttals consist of "nuh uh"

16   Raw     2013 Jan 6, 5:09am  ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote    

The Professor says

Raw says

The Professor says

Eliminate one and the others are not far behind.

Professor, there is a reason why the constitution allows for amendments. So that we can keep pace with changing times.

If we do not amend the consttution when needed, it will become a dinosaur.

Agreed. Amendments allowed blacks and women to vote, started and stopped prohibition and took some rights away from the states.

But the 1st ten amendments were special. That's why we call them the bill of rights.

There is a reason the 2nd amendment immediately follows the 1st.

What other rights do you consider archaic?

Right to hunt.
Allowing tax right offs for religious donations.
Allowing creation to be taught even in Church.
Rights of States (we live in one country, not one state)

17   Raw     2013 Jan 6, 5:19am  ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote    

Robert Sproul says

Raw says

This is nothing but cherry picking statistics to prove a point.

Cherry picked how? They are just the numbers.

As I have noticed in many other threads Raw's typical rebuttals consist of "nuh uh"

You can't compare certain states in USA with certain countries in Europe. That is deception which the NRA does. I bet the NRA could even prove there are ZERO gun deaths in America.
This is more accurate:
http://www.tampabay.com/news/politifact-us-has-more-gun-deaths-than-other-large-countries/1145669

18   Raw     2013 Jan 13, 1:49am  ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote    

The Professor says

Raw says

Allowing tax right offs for religious donations.

Allowing creation to be taught even in Church.

So you are against the first amendment as well?

Not all churches are evil (not all) but if you allow the government to tax churches, violating the 1st amendment freedom of religion, only the evil churches will survive.

Professor, we know the government as per the constitution cannot favor religion. When they allow a tax write off for donations to a church, it indirectly comes from taxpayers like me and you.
Why am I being forced to pay for a religion I do not believe in?

19   Raw     2013 Jan 13, 2:06am  ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote    

The Professor says

Raw says

Why am I being forced to pay for a religion I do not believe in?

You are not.

You too have the right to donate to a church you do believe in.

Here is what I am trying to say....
When donors to any religion get a tax write off, the treasury ends up taking in less. They make up for this by charging a higher tax rate to the rest of us. The taxpayer like me pays more in tax. I am essentially, being made to pay so that someone can build something where people can gather around and talk to invisible friends.
Please do it with your own money, not mine.
I do not want to eliminate rights. I would like to refine some of them to keep up with changing times.

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