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The citizen militia theory is nonsense

By tovarichpeter   2013 Jan 31, 9:47am   1 link   5,854 views   39 comments   watch (0)   quote      

http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2013/01/why-the-citizen-militia-theory-is-the-worst-pro-gun-argument-ever/272734/

The notion that an individual right to bear arms guarantees the American people against government tyranny is of course an old one. Given its apparent validation in the Second Amendment of the Constitution itself, it's not surprising that the notion has survived in some way through to the 21st century. Given its defiance of history and common sense, though, what should be surprising is that it's survived to remain so widespread. If America experienced a widespread political uprising today, it would bear little resemblance to Lexington and Concord in 1775, with well-disciplined minutemen assembling on the town square to defend...

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1   HEY YOU   558/558 = 100% civil   2013 Jan 31, 11:52am  ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote    

I've always been impressed & oh so skeered with pictures of bad asses.
Wonder if they will be impressed with drones when they try to take on my U.S.A.

2   Homeboy     2013 Jan 31, 12:39pm  ↑ like (2)   ↓ dislike (2)   quote    

They're called the minute men because of the minute size of their genitalia.

3   leo707     2013 Jan 31, 2:29pm  ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike   quote    

Call it Crazy says

OK, then you go tell these guys that.... I'll wait in the car!!

That is exactly the point of the article.

4   iwog   1448/1449 = 99% civil   2013 Feb 1, 12:33am  ↑ like (3)   ↓ dislike (1)   quote    

I know of just one single-issue NRA-fanatic 2nd amendment-preaching man in my sphere of friends. He's the ex-husband of a close friend of mine and he lives in Sacramento.

He's almost always unemployed, took a 15-year old girlfriend, (which is why my friend left him) and keeps a pet "dog" that is 75% wolf. He is an absolute fucktard in every imaginable way.

I think people who are rigid and unyielding on this issue are compensating for something. Lack of purpose, lack of wealth, or the oldie-but-goody tiny twig and berries.

I was a gun nut for a few years and it was back between the ages of 18 and 20 before I went to college and got a job. It was comforting to hold a rifle in my hands and pretend I had the power of life and death, always to be administered for good and never evil.

It's a fantasy. I still own guns however they are locked in my safe and I only take them out when playing at the gun range or visiting our family's gold property in the mountains. If I ever have to use a handgun in self-defense, I can almost guarantee it will be used against an NRA-worshiping gun nut and not a fascist black helicopter cracking down on my neighborhood.

5   Dan8267   2460/2492 = 98% civil   2013 Feb 1, 12:43am  ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike   quote    

Call it Crazy says

tovarichpeter says

The citizen militia theory is nonsense

OK, then you go tell these guys that.... I'll wait in the car!!

We don't have to tell those guys. The FBI spy in their mist can tell them just before the swat team takes them out. Is there any militia group that doesn't have an undercover FBI agent in it?

6   Dan8267   2460/2492 = 98% civil   2013 Feb 1, 12:45am  ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote    

iwog says

If I ever have to use a handgun in self-defense, I can almost guarantee it will be used against an NRA-worshiping gun nut and not a fascist black helicopter cracking down on my neighborhood.

Of course a handgun would be no defense against a fascist black helicopter. Nor would an assault weapon.

In fact, an entire militia armed with anything they can get their hands on legally would have no chance against an Apache helicopter. I'm not sure if the militia would stand much of a chance with any arms they could get illegally.

7   Vicente     2013 Feb 1, 12:46am  ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike   quote    

It was less nonsensical a decade or two ago.

It is more so now. Modern Americans take it for GRANTED now that Reapers and Predators can take out insurgents. I expect if you had a real problem with domestic terrorists, it wouldn't be like Waco at all. They'd flatten the place at the start, without having to send in agents or have an extended standoff.

8   Quigley   475/480 = 98% civil   2013 Feb 1, 1:06am  ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote    

There's always a chance. It really just depends on how smart the rebels are, and how determined. Just sitting here thinking about it for five minutes I came up with a nearly fool proof plan to eliminate the helicopter problem that two guys could accomplish. I'm not going to share, for obvious reasons. What I'm saying is: never think they can't be defeated simply because they have better guns. The human mind far more powerful. Look at what that mad f--k Osama accomplished with nothing more than some desert yahoos and money for airfare.

9   Vicente     2013 Feb 1, 1:07am  ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike   quote    

Call it Crazy says

Get out of your Fantasy land with your Apache and Drone attacks... the FIRST time a group of people in the US gets targeted or blown up by an Apache or Drone, the population will rise up big time and be really pissed.....

A decade ago I'd have agreed with you.

Now I'm not so sure.

Where's the huge uprising in the 4 countries we have active drone operations in?

10   Raw     2013 Feb 1, 1:13am  ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote    

Call it Crazy says

OK, then you go tell these guys that.... I'll wait in the car!!

Scoot over....i'll wait with you.

11   Dan8267   2460/2492 = 98% civil   2013 Feb 1, 1:34am  ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote    

Call it Crazy says

Get out of your Fantasy land with your Apache and Drone attacks... the FIRST time a group of people in the US gets targeted or blown up by an Apache or Drone, the population will rise up big time and be really pissed.....

Just like the first time the FBI burned alive US citizens during the Waco Massacre, the population rose up in defiance. Oh wait, that didn't happen. And there were 17 children who died horribly in that fire.

Or how about the time when Mayer Wilson Goode of Philadelphia dropped a C4 bomb on innocent civilians killing men, women, and children. The Move Bombing Massacre never resulted in a militia uprising either.

Hell, the failure of militias goes back to at least the Ludlow Massacre of 1914 in Colorado when the a militia ran by the mining corporation slaughter an entire town of men, women, and children gunning them down and burning them alive. That militia, though, was supported by the local government and was fighting civilians, not government.

Yet, in none of these incidents, all of which involved setting children afire and burning them to death, resulted in no uprising by the population. If horrifically murdering children isn't enough to rouse a popular rebellion, wtf is?

12   Dan8267   2460/2492 = 98% civil   2013 Feb 1, 1:35am  ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote    

It still pisses me off today, that none of the above massacres ever resulted in a single criminal conviction. Even the court systems don't have the balls to keep government in line.

13   Dan8267   2460/2492 = 98% civil   2013 Feb 1, 1:36am  ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote    

14   Dan8267   2460/2492 = 98% civil   2013 Feb 1, 1:41am  ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike   quote    

Call it Crazy says

The US population doesn't give a shit about what's going on across the ocean in the desert... the MSM says we are hunting terrorists over there (even though we kill hundreds of women and children too), so the "sheep" here are happy the terrorists are dead!!

Let it happen on our own soil here and I think you'll get a different response.

Vincent was talking about the lack of uprising by the populations suffering drone attacks. The idea being that Americans would be just as powerless to stop such attacks. And that is true. The legal guns in our country are just as widely available in those four countries.

15   leo707     2013 Feb 1, 2:05am  ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote    

Call it Crazy says

If there was a drone attack on a militia group in Arizona, it would be all over the social media sites in minutes. That would attract a lot of "interest"..... not all of it would be positive!!

Sure there would be interest, and some would not be "positive", but for the most part everyone would falling over themselves thanking the government for taking out another dangerous David Koresh or potential Timothy McVeigh.

Do you think even FOX "news" would paint the guys as heros that need avenging?

16   leo707     2013 Feb 1, 2:10am  ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote    

Dan8267 says

Call it Crazy says

The US population doesn't give a shit about what's going on across the ocean in the desert... the MSM says we are hunting terrorists over there (even though we kill hundreds of women and children too), so the "sheep" here are happy the terrorists are dead!!

Let it happen on our own soil here and I think you'll get a different response.

Vincent was talking about the lack of uprising by the populations suffering drone attacks. The idea being that Americans would be just as powerless to stop such attacks. And that is true. The legal guns in our country are just as widely available in those four countries.

Yep, they also have access to smart phones, iPads, Internet, Twitter, Facebook, email, etc. so they can spread their hate of America faster. They also have access to real assault rifles, not the pansy semi-automatic US civilian versions, RPG, explosives, etc.

They are still pretty ineffectual against drones, etc.

17   leo707     2013 Feb 1, 2:24am  ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote    

Quigley says

Just sitting here thinking about it for five minutes I came up with a nearly fool proof plan to eliminate the helicopter problem that two guys could accomplish. I'm not going to share, for obvious reasons.

Good thing you are keeping it quite. If any foreign insurgents were reading Pnet your idea would cause US helicopters to start dropping out of the air in Afghanistan (and elsewhere) like flies.

There is one catch to your plan though. You get no practice and if it does not work for any reason you are dead.

Quigley says

What I'm saying is: never think they can't be defeated simply because they have better guns.

Yeah, our battle cry could be, "Second moon of ENDOOORRRRR!"
Quigley says

The human mind far more powerful.

Yeah, and assuming that you pull off your trick once, that is probably the only chance you get. Next time you try it you will be killed.

Quigley says

Look at what that mad f--k Osama accomplished with nothing more than some desert yahoos and money for airfare.

Like I said he was able to do that once, and look at where he is at now.

*High-five to Obama*

I am not saying that a helicopter can not be shot down, sure they can. Look at Black Hawk Down. They shot down a couple of helicopters with assault rifles and RPGs. Remind me again how many Somalis lives were required to shoot down two Black Hawks that were close to the ground, picking up/dropping off people?

18   leo707     2013 Feb 1, 2:37am  ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote    

iwog says

I was a gun nut for a few years

Even though I almost never get out shooting these days I would still consider myself a "gun nut", I really like my guns and love it when I can get out and shoot. I don't think guns should be outright banned, and that there should be a path to gun ownership.

However, I temper that nuttiness with a realistic view of the world we live in, who I have to share it with, and the entirely unrealistic proposition of a citizen militia keeping the government in check.

19   Dan8267   2460/2492 = 98% civil   2013 Feb 1, 2:41am  ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote    

Call it Crazy says

The difference now is we have smart phones, iPads, Internet, Twitter, Facebook, email, etc., so the information and details flows a lot QUICKER....

There was a time when I believed that the Internet would force governments to behave better, but it has yet to do so. The closest it has come to fulfilling that promise is Wikileaks.

Even in the age of instant communication, an uprising in America is no more likely. People watched the Wacho and Move Massacres on live television and did nothing afterwards. Lack of communication speed was not the problem.

20   Dan8267   2460/2492 = 98% civil   2013 Feb 1, 2:56am  ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote    

The Professor says

iwog says

If I ever have to use a handgun in self-defense, I can almost guarantee it will be used against an NRA-worshiping gun nut and not a fascist black helicopter cracking down on my neighborhood.

More likely you would need your gun to encounter a criminal trying to break into your home.

But does that make you safer when the police will kill you on site when they break into your house and see the gun. Oh, the police aren't coming to your house because you never do anything suspicious?

All the time, the police break into the wrong house because of a clerical error and kill the innocent home dwellers inside. Recently, a man was shot dead by the police when he went to his door holding a perfectly legal handgun. The man was an innocent who thought criminals were breaking into his house and he went to investigate. It turns out that the police were breaking into his house and they had the wrong address. Having a gun to protect himself and his family against criminals got this man killed. And this happens all the time.

In another example, a man was killed by the police as soon as the police unexpectedly barged into his house. And yes, this was also an innocent man. That man didn't even have time to react, nonetheless to be a threat in any way, but he was killed simply because he had a gun on him.

http://raleightelegram.com/201207172200

When deputies entered the home, they said that Scott had a gun held in his hands, possibly for his own defense to ward off an unannounced intruder at such a late hour. Scott did not shoot at the deputies, but they shot and killed him as they entered the home.

Despite the time of night they entered his home, the fact that Scott did not fire his weapon, and the fact that they got the wrong address, the Sheriff’s department said they believed that Scott’s death was clearly his own fault, and the deputies were not to blame.

Of course, the police will lie and say the victim pointed the gun at the police, but the victim doesn't even have the time to do so and wouldn't have pointed a gun at an army of police in uniform even if he did have the time to do so. No, the police see the gun on the person and open fire without thinking. Gun ownership equals death even when you obey all the laws and are absolutely no threat to government. And the police will never face criminal charges.

Shouldn't the pro-gun-rights people form one of these militias and bring those police officers, who are murderers, to justice? Isn't this exactly the whole fucking purpose of an armed civilian militia? If not for these instances or for the instances of police gang raping women in front of their children or burning children alive, then wtf does it take for the so-called defenders of freedom militias to act?

Those who argue the Citizen Militia Case like to pretend that nothing majorly bad happens in America, because the moment such a thing did happen, the minute men militia will spring into action like Clark Kent in a phone both and save the day. But the fact is that majorly bad things happen in America all the time and the militias never, ever act. Why? Because they are worthless and powerless to fight even a minor force like a handful of murderer or gang rapist cops.

There is no lack of call to action for a citizen militia. There is simply the reality that no citizen militia could accomplish jack diddle shit. Now, I don't like this fact any more than you do. Hell, I'd give me left nut to change this fact. But I can't and you can't. It's the truth and there's nothing we can do about it. Pretending that it isn't the truth only dis-empowers us and prevents us from looking for alternative solutions that are realistic.

21   Tenpoundbass   955/956 = 99% civil   2013 Feb 1, 3:26am  ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike   quote    

They(government) better do something now(out law all guns), because they don't look like the type you would want to strong arm 20,000 dollars from every year.

22   Vicente     2013 Feb 1, 5:11am  ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike   quote    

Call it Crazy says

The US population doesn't give a shit about what's going on across the ocean in the desert... the MSM says we are hunting terrorists over there (even though we kill hundreds of women and children too), so the "sheep" here are happy the terrorists are dead!!

Let it happen on our own soil here and I think you'll get a different response.

I think you missed my point. Over in those 4 countries, there's a foreign invader killing your people at will, and so far in the last decade they've managed to amount to what? Suicide bombers are terrible and a threat, but that is not open revolt.

Let's look at Syria. How long do you think the "citizen uprising" there would last without tons of external support? You think they are fighting that with all-domestic sidearms and ammo?

I rather expect you have an easier time of it shopping for cannon fodder, where life is already cheap. Shopping for militia willing to engage in long-term urban guerilla action here? Puh-leeeeeze! Too many of them have Facebook pages and plenty of e-intel on their loudmouthed activities already. They'd run out of Montana militia in the first week, and then what? Back to DwtS Uh-merica!.

23   tatupu70     2013 Feb 1, 5:36am  ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote    

Dan8267 says

Just like the first time the FBI burned alive US citizens during the Waco
Massacre, the population rose up in defiance. Oh wait, that didn't happen. And
there were 17 children who died horribly in that fire.

If that was the way it happened, then the population probably would have risen up in defiance.

Here's what Frontline concluded:

Who started the fire that erupted a little more than six hours after the FBI began inserting the tear gas on April 19?

Although several of the surviving Branch Davidians insist that they did not start the fire, a panel of arson investigators concluded that the Davidians were responsible for igniting it, simultaneously, in at least three different areas of the compound. Unless they were deliberatley set, the probability of the three fires starting almost simultaneously was highly unlikely, according to fire experts. Furthermore, the videotapes show the use of accelerants that strongly increased the spread of the fire. Although one Branch Davidian stated that a FBI tank had tipped over a lantern, videotapes show that the tank had struck the building a minute and a half before the fire began. Also some of the surviving Davidians' clothing showed evidence of lighter fluid and other accelerants. In addition, FBI listening devices seemed to establish that the Davidians were overheard making statements such as, "Spread the fuel," some six hours before the fires began. (Joint Hearing of the Crime Subcommittee July 1995.)

24   Dan8267   2460/2492 = 98% civil   2013 Feb 1, 7:30am  ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote    

tatupu70 says

If that was the way it happened, then the population probably would have risen up in defiance.

The FBI used flammable tear gas, which was the fuel for the fire. They killed the people inside whether or not that was the intention. And maybe that wouldn't be so bad if there weren't innocent children in there.

As for the Move Massacre, which was even worse, the government deliberately kill the innocent men, women, and children with a C4 bomb. There was nothing accidental about the detonation of that bomb.

25   Vicente     2013 Feb 1, 7:44am  ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike   quote    

Call it Crazy says

Hell, after the last month and a half of weapons and ammo purchases, there are enough weapons in the general population to put a gun in the hands of all the 330 Million people here.

So Syria's problems will be solved if Americans shipped them over some rifles and pistols? OK. Then do that. Seems like the Middle East is already awash in reliable Kalashnikov products, but perhaps they can use our finicky Western weapons too.

26   leo707     2013 Feb 1, 8:31am  ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote    

Call it Crazy says

Now, how many of those active military and LEO's would actually fight AGAINST other Americans? We have already seen a bunch of Sherriffs say they won't uphold any new anti 2A laws...

And those Sherriffs sure as hell would fight against other Americans if they were trying to throw Bush out of office.

Call it Crazy says

Let's say only 5% get pissed off enough and the other 95% sit on their asses and watch TV....

The problem with only getting 5% is that they are going to be the most extreme.

If 5 million armed leftist militants were riled up enough to start killing all the republicans and setting up a leftist state do you think the 5 million armed militants on the other extreme are going to be content sitting at home munching on pork rinds?

27   Vicente     2013 Feb 1, 10:03am  ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote    

Call it Crazy says

Ah, but can the Syrians just whip out their Visa card at the gun store and buy some more when ever they like?

Syrian market is reportedly saturated at this point. RPG-7 rocket is about $300, got those at your gun store?

28   thomaswong.1986     2013 Feb 1, 10:11am  ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote    

Homeboy says

They're called the minute men because of the minute size of their genitalia.

the beautiful thing about your statement is ...
WE ALL KNOW you dont even have the guts
to stand and say that to their faces..

29   thomaswong.1986     2013 Feb 1, 10:12am  ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote    

Vicente says

Syrian market is reportedly saturated at this point. RPG-7 rocket is about $300, got those at your gun store?

middle east has always been saturated with Russian made mil equipment..

30   Reality     2013 Feb 1, 10:22am  ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote    

Vicente says

So Syria's problems will be solved if Americans shipped them over some rifles and pistols? OK. Then do that. Seems like the Middle East is already awash in reliable Kalashnikov products, but perhaps they can use our finicky Western weapons too.

All Middle East countries, with the exception of Israel, ban private individuals from owning guns. The AK-47 toting thugs that you see on TV are usually agents of government or organizations that are quasi- or aspire to become government.

If you really want to cite the case of Middle East, perhaps the lesson should be disarming the government or any organization that is built with the intention to initiate of violence (e.g. collecting taxes) . . . while giving individual non-organized citizens the freedom to own guns for personal self defense.

31   Reality     2013 Feb 1, 10:30am  ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote    

Vicente says

Call it Crazy says

Ah, but can the Syrians just whip out their Visa card at the gun store and buy some more when ever they like?

Syrian market is reportedly saturated at this point. RPG-7 rocket is about $300, got those at your gun store?

$300 is a lot of money there for an average individual right now. The locals are getting by with less than $10 a day.

The actual manufacturing cost of an RPG-7 is less than $100. The Syrian street price that you quote is actually very high (for a place where government fire arm ban is non-operative), indicating shortage. The high price is what's making arms dealers ship the weapons there. For $300, in a non-conflict zone (and arms dealing is legal) "you" should be getting RPG-29, which makes RPG-7 looks like a pee shooter.

32   thomaswong.1986     2013 Feb 1, 11:04am  ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote    

iwog says

If I ever have to use a handgun in self-defense, I can almost guarantee it will be used against an NRA-worshiping gun nut and not a fascist black helicopter cracking down on my neighborhood.

oh such an outspoken lefty you are...

how about an army of invaders crossing the border ?

or how about buglers with a violent history ?

or drug dealers having a shot out infront or down your street ?

33   thomaswong.1986     2013 Feb 1, 11:05am  ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote    

Reality says

$300 is a lot of money there for an average individual right now.

Heroine and or Hash traders.

34   iwog   1448/1449 = 99% civil   2013 Feb 1, 11:58am  ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (1)   quote    

IDDQD says

Could you elaborate on your imaginary scenario? "NRA-worshiping gun nuts" are not known for participation in home invasions or armed robberies so it must be something else.

I have much more to fear from NRA worshiping lunatics than I do my own government. That I know for sure.

35   iwog   1448/1449 = 99% civil   2013 Feb 1, 12:00pm  ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (1)   quote    

thomaswong.1986 says

oh such an outspoken lefty you are...

how about an army of invaders crossing the border ?

or how about buglers with a violent history ?

or drug dealers having a shot out infront or down your street ?

I'm pretty sure no one is going to have a shot out in front of my house. If they did, I'd run in the opposite direction.

What kind of brain dead moron observes a shoot out and says "Hey I think I'll get my gun and start shooting too!!!"?

36   Reality     2013 Feb 1, 1:27pm  ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote    

iwog says

I'm pretty sure no one is going to have a shot out in front of my house. If they did, I'd run in the opposite direction.

Never run in a straight line away from a gun: you will never be able to run faster than a bullet. Instead, take your gun and hole up in a hiding place, and shoot anyone coming thru the layers of hiding trying to find you and rob you.

37   Reality     2013 Feb 1, 1:30pm  ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote    

thomaswong.1986 says

Heroine and or Hash traders.

I'd think both commodities are cheap there now, due to collapse of local currency. If I have to venture a guess, hash is probably always cheap there because it's legal like sugar candy here and not sin-taxed like alcohol and tobacco here.

38   HEY YOU   558/558 = 100% civil   2013 Feb 1, 2:46pm  ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote    

Call it Crazy@# 39'

I just love to hear the cowards run their mouths when they gave up their rights to carry firearms into this public tax built structure. Yes Sir! Yes Sir! I'll do as I'm told. Let these cowards draw a weapon on enforcement officers of this country & their families will be attending funerals.

39   iwog   1448/1449 = 99% civil   2013 Feb 1, 11:18pm  ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote    

Dan8267 says

The FBI used flammable tear gas, which was the fuel for the fire. They killed the people inside whether or not that was the intention. And maybe that wouldn't be so bad if there weren't innocent children in there.

I don't accept that. Arson investigators concluded that fires were intentionally set at three different locations within the compound. An accelerant, probably gasoline, was poured on the buildings and some of the people. Some members were shot to death. It was clearly the intention of the Davidians to commit mass suicide/murder.

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