patrick.net

[Kid in the back raising his hand]

If these folks are pissed off unemployed people, then where are they getting the resources to spend weeks in the America's most expensive City?

Throw a Jamband in the mix, and these same folks would be at a Music festival, instead of a leaderless direction lacking protest.

These are people pissed off because they are unemployed or underemployed. They spend a bunch of money going to college, and even went intio debt to get their degree, despite all the obvious evidence that it was a dumb idea to do that.

I also wonder how many of these protestors drive a Kia, Hyundai, Subaru, Toyota, etc. Just saying...

So if one owns a nice car, they have no right to protest corporate corruption? Owning anything from a corporation absolves all corporations of any form of corruption?

What about the numerous gainfully employed protesters? What are they protesting about? Perhaps since they have decent jobs, they should shut up? The true unemployment rate is the highest since the depression. I suppose the unemployed should just work hard? Wealth inequality is the highest ever and billions have been siphoned upward. I suppose the poor just have to work harder in spite of the fact that it's become statistically less possible for many to move upward. America is becoming a third world country and when we become one, I suppose the masses of poor who are starving just need to work harder right?

http://www.alternet.org/occupywallst/152647/occupy_wall_street%3A_the_most_important_thing_in_the_world_now/

The GOP says

If these folks are pissed off unemployed people, then where are they getting the resources to spend weeks in the America's most expensive City?

zzyzzx says

These are people pissed off because they are unemployed or underemployed. They spend a bunch of money going to college, and even went intio debt to get their degree, despite all the obvious evidence that it was a dumb idea to do that.

Clearly, you're both right to be concerned about this.

Frustration with the bail outs, status quo, corporate corruption of our government... which outsources American jobs, while Federal Reserve inflates the currency into funny money.

Throw in Endless and pointless wars, and huge unemployment, and false promises by administration which so many believed... throw all that into the pile and see the results.

FortWayne says

Frustration with the bail outs, status quo, corporate corruption of our government... which outsources American jobs, while Federal Reserve inflates the currency into funny money.

Throw in Endless and pointless wars, and huge unemployment, and false promises by administration which so many believed... throw all that into the pile and see the results.

Quality Auto Repair Since 1979

Nah, they're just lazy and need to get a job. That will solve all our problems.

BobbyS says

So if one owns a nice car, they have no right to protest corporate corruption?

I was saying that if one owns a foreign built car, or even a car made in the US by a foreign company (which does still put a lot of Americans out fo work), one has no right to complain about being unemployed.

zzyzzx says

I was saying that if one owns a foreign built car, or even a car made in the US by a foreign company (which does still put a lot of Americans out fo work), one has no right to complain about being unemployed.

Dude, you need to update your perspective. Much as I support buying American, the issue of buying an American vehicle to support American jobs is moot:

Even the ford f-150, the #1 ranked vehicle on the American Made index, is now only 60% made in the USA... the #2 vehicle, the Toyota Camry, is now 80% made in the USA!!!

http://www.cars.com/go/advice/Story.jsp?section=top&subject=ami&story=amMade0707

http://abcnews.go.com/WN/MadeInAmerica/page?id=13795239

So it's solely the people's fault for buying foreign made things for the high level of unemployment? And if a person just buys one item made in another country, they automatically have no right to complain about being unemployed? In essence, if a person is not an isolationist who believes one should only buy American made things, then they are to blame for their unemployment and have no right to complain about it? If all corporations decided to offshore all manufacturing, then a person must live in the middle of nowhere and become a hunter/gatherer in order to have the right to complain about being unemployed?

BobbyS says

And if a person just buys one item made in another country, they have automatically have no right to complain about being unemployed?

Yes, exactly. What the fuck is wrong with all of you people? Why can't you just figure out how to grow your own iPods from seed, like our parents did???

It's because you're too damn lazy. That's the problem here. You all expect Saint Steve Jobs to slide down from heaven on a ray of light and hand you the next generation of iPhone, which you will then charge to your foreign-owned bank credit card, before returning to your carefree, government-funded 'vacation' known as unemployment. You all make me sick. Why don't you learn a useful trade, like beet pickling or machining or shoe repair, so that you can become self-sufficient AND employed?

The most succinct summation I've heard (maybe on Patrick.net?) is this: in the past, productivity gains were shared with the workers; this is no longer the case. There's a myriad of reasons why this no longer happens (globalization being one of the main culprits), but it does have me scratching my head on how to address the root problem as stated above. Bringing healthcare to the masses is a start (or maybe just a balm to establish acceptable baseline poverty) , but I otherwise tend to balk at massive redistribution schemes.
I do think the Wall Street protesters could use an injection of pithy signs from the patnet crowd. What would your sign say? Mine might be: RTC II and Cut police and fire pay. Something for everyone.

EBGuy says

I do think the Wall Street protesters could use an injection of pithy signs from the patnet crowd. What would your sign say?

terriDeaner says

EBGuy says

I do think the Wall Street protesters could use an injection of pithy signs from the patnet crowd. What would your sign say?

I would enjoy another bailout. I see we already got four of your five fingers. Although I don't have much use for it, I will take your last finger. Stubbly stumped underclass look funny and make me laugh. I do enjoy asking fingerless cripples to "give me five".

I learned how to sign "What? I can't hear you" so I could communicate with the
deaf n' dumb. I'm still working on "clean the wax out of your ears, idiot."

zzyzzx says

I also wonder how many of these protestors drive a Kia, Hyundai, Subaru, Toyota, etc. Just saying...

This is an ignorant comment, and you've made it more than once now. I've explained it already:

http://patrick.net/?p=1081559#comment-770542

zzyzzx says

I was saying that if one owns a foreign built car, or even a car made in the US by a foreign company (which does still put a lot of Americans out fo work), one has no right to complain about being unemployed.

And now you're complaining about a foreign company outsourcing to the US. That seems incongruous.

zzyzzx says

These are people pissed off because they are unemployed or underemployed. They spend a bunch of money going to college, and even went intio debt to get their degree, despite all the obvious evidence that it was a dumb idea to do that.

Pretty naive attitude. When the teabaggers make similar complaints to Occupy Wall Street, you cheer them on, but now you deride them. Hypocrite.

Huntington Moneyworth III, Esq says

Although I don't have much use for it, I will take your last finger.

Then you'll have to pry my last finger from my cold, dead hands... oh, wait... I guess that's the point...

zzyzzx says

I was saying that if one owns a foreign built car, or even a car made in the US by a foreign company (which does still put a lot of Americans out fo work), one has no right to complain about being unemployed.

Last time I looked an American with a job tends to pay taxes, spend money, and contribute to the national economy. Thus its likewise safe to assume that a US worker making Japanese cars in a Texas, Kentucky, Tennessee, or Indiana plant is... a US worker.

Also- the lines between what is really and truly "A" American car and "A" imported car is blurred drastically today. Cars are often built using platforms, drivetrains, components and design from around the globe.

edvard2 says

Also- the lines between what is really and truly "A" American car and "A" imported car is blurred drastically today.

Yeah, and in fact "American" car makers make plenty of cars outside the US too and bring them here -- for example, "Amurikin" minivans made by Ford and Chrysler are imported from Windsor, Ontario, and the Pontiac G8 and (2004-2006) GTO (RIP in each case) were Australian Holden models (a Commodore and Monaro, respectively) that were brought here as captive imports, just like other GM cars such as the Pontiac LeMans or the Chevy Aveo/Pontiac G3. Dodge Sprinter? Not made here. Ford TransitConnect? Nope. Dodge Colt and its stablemates? Nope. Geo models that later were badged as Chevy? Nope. Saturn Astra? Not a chance. Ford Capri? Nein. Any Merkur? Absolutely not. What about the 2011 and later Chevy Caprice Police Patrol Vehicle? Nope, that's a Holden Statesman from Australia. Meanwhile plenty of "foreign" car makers make cars here, including German ones.

The comment by zzyzzx is just ignorant and nonsensical and shows a complete lack of knowledge, again as I pointed out here:

http://patrick.net/?p=1081559#comment-770542

What do you drive, zzyzzx? Does it meet your BS purity test?

Im pretty sure the organized government unions will or have taken over this lame movement so taxes can be raised to fund thier sweet, sweet pension, pay and benefits.

So the whole point of the protest is to raise taxes. It wont only be on the evil 1% either.

It should be called 'opposite tea party' protest they want MORE government and MORE taxes? It makes sense if you are a government employee/on welfare.

PockyClipsNow says

So the whole point of the protest is to raise taxes. It wont only be on the evil 1% either.

?

The bailouts to the corporations were taxpayer funded, my good zombie. That, in part, is what the protesters are pissed off about.

terriDeaner says

The bailouts to the corporations were taxpayer funded, my good zombie. That, in part, is what the protesters are pissed off about.

Yeah, my guess is that Pocky is believing what Pocky wants to believe, rather than facing reality. Again, the Occupy Wall Street folks have a lot in common with the Teabagger folks, so I really don't understand all the hate. My guess is that most people took their cues from the talking heads on financial news channels, who of course hate people who are criticizing Wall Street and its massive failures.

zzyzzx says

These are people pissed off because they are unemployed or underemployed. They spend a bunch of money going to college, and even went intio debt to get their degree, despite all the obvious evidence that it was a dumb idea to do that.

I also wonder how many of these protestors drive a Kia, Hyundai, Subaru, Toyota, etc. Just saying...

If the homeowner is'nt insulted by your offer...you didn't bid low enough!!!

Yes, those flakes! There's nothing wrong with the economy, there are no corporations influencing elections or policy, there are no banks so large their actions could affect the well being of the country, there's no obscene pay scale for corporate execs while jobs are being shipped overseas and the wages of the employees is dropping... certainly no one has lost their savings over illegal bank actions, definitely many execs have been investigated and prosucted for fraud.. there's nothing to see there folks! Just a bunch of latte sipping hypocrites who probably will head home to their xboxes after the NYPD cruShes a few skulls and pepper sprays a few chicks tomorrow morning. Those flakes!

In closing, it seems to me that the OW movement is reacting to changes in the global economy, in which, currently, for once it's not in the favor of the US, and the pain is being directly placed on the shoulders of the, well, 99 percent of Americans, by both corporate and government policy.

See the post of mine above, all of those things are happening and people can see it. Perhaps it's worth considering that the movement is saying nothing more than "we've worked hard our entire lives and now the system is fucking me and leaving me out to dry."

And for those of you religious bastards, it's also worth considering what Jesus would be doing right now. My guess is he'd be overturning the tables of the money lenders, right?

I dunno, man. If you think it's strange that banksters committed that significant amounts of fraud over the last several years and that they drove several too big to fail businesses into the ground threatening our whole economy, and yet incredibly few have gotten indicted, and almost none have gotten jail sentences, and if anything the banksters have gotten rewarded by getting bailouts and by being able to give themselves even higher bonuses, despite driving their businesses into the ground through gross incompetence, well I'm glad to know that I'm not alone.

The protests are about Americans who are tired of being DUPED.

The Fundamental Transformation of America .
>
> WHEN Obama wrote a book and said he was mentored as a youth by
> Frank (Frank Marshall Davis) an avowed Communist, people said it
> didn't matter.
>
> WHEN it was discovered that his grandparents, were strong
> socialists who sent Obama's mother to a socialist school where she
> was introduced to Frank Marshall Davis. He was later introduced to
> young Barrack Hussein Obama. People said it didn't matter.
>
> WHEN people found out that Barrack Hussein Obama was enrolled as a
> Muslim child in school and his father and stepfather were both
> Muslims, people said it didn't matter.
>
> WHEN he wrote in another book he authored "I will stand with them
> (Muslims) should the political winds shift in an ugly direction"
> people said it didn't matter.
>
> WHEN he admittedly, in his book, said he chose Marxist friends and
> professors in college-- people said it didn't matter.
>
> WHEN he traveled to Pakistan , after college on an unknown national
> passport, people said it didn't matter.
>
> WHEN he sought the endorsement of the Marxist Party in 1996 as he
> ran for the Illinois Senate, people said it didn't matter.
>
> WHEN he sat in a Chicago Church for twenty years and listened to a
> preacher spew hatred for America and preach black liberation
> theology, people said it didn't matter.
>
> WHEN an independent Washington organization, that tracks Senate
> voting records, gave him the distinctive title as the "most liberal
> senator," people said it didn't matter.
>
> WHEN the Palestinians in Gaza set up a fund raising telethon to
> raise money for his election campaign, people said it didn't matter.
>
> WHEN his voting record supported gun control, people said it didn't
> matter.
>
> WHEN he refused to disclose who donated money to his election
> campaign, as other candidates had done, people said it didn't matter.
>
> WHEN he received endorsements from people like Louis Farrakhan and
> Mummar Kadaffi and Hugo Chavez, people said it didn't matter.
>
> WHEN it was pointed out that he was a total newcomer and had
> absolutely no experience at anything except community organizing,
> people said it didn't matter.
>
> WHEN he chose friends and acquaintances such as Bill Ayers and
> Bernadine Dohrn who were revolutionary radicals, people said it
> didn't matter.
>
> WHEN his "Present"voting record in the Illinois senate and in the
> U.S. Senate came into question, people said it didn't matter.
>
> WHEN he refused to wear a flag, lapel pin, and did so only after a
> public outcry, people said it didn't matter.
>
> WHEN people started treating him as a Messiah and children in
> schools were taught to sing his praises, people said it didn't matter.
>
> WHEN he stood with his hands over his groin area for the playing of
> the National Anthem and Pledge of Allegiance, people said it didn't
> matter.
>
> WHEN he surrounded himself in the White house with advisors who
> were pro-gun control, pro- abortion, pro-homosexual marriage and
> wanting to curtail freedom of speech to silence the opposition
> people said it didn't matter..
>
>
> WHEN he said he favors sex education in Kindergarten, including
> homosexual indoctrination, people said it didn't matter.
>
> WHEN his personal background was either scrubbed or hidden and
> nothing could be found about him, people said it didn't matter.
>
> WHEN the place of his birth was called into question, and he
> refused to produce a birth certificate until recently, people said
> it didn't matter.
>
> WHEN he had an association in Chicago with Tony Rezco--a man of
> questionable character and who is now in prison and had helped
> Obama to a sweet deal on the purchase of his home-- people said it
> didn't matter.
>
> WHEN it became known that George Soros, a multi-billionaire
> Marxist, spent a ton of money to get him elected, people said it
> didn't matter.
>
> WHEN he started appointing White House Czars that were radicals,
> revolutionaries, and even avowed Marxist/Communist, people said it
> didn't matter.
>
> WHEN he stood before the Nation and told us that his intentions
> were to "fundamentally transform this Nation" into something else,
> people said it didn't matter.
>
> WHEN it became known that he had trained ACORN workers in Chicago
> and served as an attorney for ACORN, people said it didn't matter.
>
> WHEN he appointed cabinet members and several advisors who were tax
> cheats and socialists, people said it didn't matter.
>
> WHEN he appointed a Science Czar, John Holdren, who believes in
> forced abortions, mass sterilizations and seizing babies from teen
> mothers, people said it didn't matter.
>
> WHEN he appointed Cass Sunstein as Regulatory Czar who believes in
> "Explicit Consent," harvesting human organs without family consent,
> and allowing animals to be represented in court, while banning all
> hunting, people said
> it didn't matter.
>
> WHEN he appointed Kevin Jennings, a homosexual, and organizer of a
> group called gay, lesbian, straight, education network as Safe
> School Czar and it became known that he had a history of bad advice
> to teenagers, people said it didn't matter.
>
> WHEN he appointed Mark Lloyd, as Diversity Czar, who believes in
> curtailing free speech; taking from one and giving to another to
> spread the wealth; who supports Hugo Chavez, people said it didn't
> matter.
>
> WHEN Valerie Jarrett was selected as Obama's Senior White House
> Advisor and she is an avowed Socialist, people said it didn't matter.
>
> WHEN Anita Dunn, White House Communications Director said Mao Tse
> Tung was her favorite philosopher-- and the person she turned to
> most for inspiration, people said it didn't matter.
>
> WHEN he appointed Carol Browner as Global Warming Czar, and her
> being a well known socialist working on Cap and Trade as the
> nations largest tax, people said it didn't matter.
>
> WHEN he appointed Van Jones, an ex-con and avowed Communist as
> Green Energy Czar, who since had to resign WHEN this was made
> known, people said it didn't matter.
>
> WHEN Tom Daschle, Obama's pick for health and human services
> secretary could not be confirmed, because he was a tax cheat,
> people said it didn't matter.
>
> WHEN as President of the United States , he bowed to the King of
> Saudi Arabia , people said it didn't matter.
>
> WHEN he traveled around the world criticizing America and never
> once talking of her greatness, people said it didn't matter.
>
> WHEN his actions concerning the Middle-East seemed to support the
> Palestinians over Israel , our long time ally, people said it
> didn't matter.
>
> WHEN he took American tax dollars to resettle thousands of
> Palestinians from Gaza to the United States , people said it didn't
> matter.
>
> WHEN he upset the Europeans by removing plans for a missile defense
> system against the Russians, people said it didn't matter.
>
> WHEN he played politics in Afghanistan by not sending troops early-
> on when the Field Commanders said they were necessary to win,
> people said it didn't matter.
>
> WHEN he started spending us into a debt that was so big we could
> not pay it off, people said it didn't matter.
>
> WHEN he took a huge spending bill under the guise of stimulus and
> used it to pay off organizations, unions, and individuals that got
> him elected, people said it didn't matter.
>
> WHEN he took over insurance companies, car companies, banks, etc.,
> people said it didn't matter.
>
> WHEN he took away student loans from the banks and put it through
> the government, people said it didn't matter.
>
> WHEN he designed plans to take over the health care system and put
> it under government control, people said it didn't matter.
>
> WHEN he claimed he was a Christian during the election and tapes
> were later made public that showed Obama speaking to a Muslim group
> and 'stating' that he was raised a Muslim; was educated as a
> Muslim; and that he is still a Muslim-- people said it didn't matter.
>
> WHEN he set into motion a plan to take over the control of all
> energy in the United States through Cap and Trade, people said it
> didn't matter.
>
> WHEN he finally completed his transformation of America into a
> Socialist State , people finally woke up--- but it was too late.
>
> Add these up one by one and you get a phenomenal score that points
> to the fact that Barrack Hussein Obama is determined to turn
> America into a Marxist-Socialist society.
>
> All of the items in the preceding paragraphs have been put into
> place. All can be documented very easily. Before you disavow this
> do an internet search. The last paragraph alone is not yet cast in
> stone. You and I will write that paragraph. Will it read as above
> or will it be a more happy ending for most of America ?
>
> If you are an Obama Supporter don't be angry with me because I
> think Barrack Hussein Obama is a socialist. Far too many facts
> support he is indeed a Socialist.
>
> If you seek the truth you will be richer for it.
>
> Don't just belittle the opposition.. Search for the truth.
> Democrats, Republicans, Independents, Constitutionalists,
> Libertarians all need to pull together or watch the demise of a
> free democratic society.
>
> Pray for Americans to seek the truth and take action for it will
> keep us FREE. Our biggest enemy is not China , Russia , North
> Korea , and Iran our biggest enemy is a contingent of politicians
> in Washington DC . The government will not help, so we need to do
> it ourselves.

I bet if 80% of the people there, were to be honest.
They would tell you they are there, in hopes to get a few minutes of fame on camera, or immortalized by an iconic pic or tweet.
Landing a reality show would be a bonus.

That would be more like 8% of the people there. Maybe another 30% just because they think it's fun (and what the heck - they agree with the protest). Most the rest really are there to protest.

At least that's my take on it.

TMAC54 says

when...
when...
..
..
..
..

WHEN he designed plans to take over the health care system and put
> it under government control, people said it didn't matter.

I'm disappointed in Obama in some ways, but this is so much partisan (and or racist) bullshit.

marcus says

I'm disappointed in Obama in some ways, but this is so much partisan (and or racist) bullshit.

Please, for the sake of freedom, post your counter points !
I personally don't care the nameplates or the pink on the inside diversions you may fall for. I see a fine line between gov't controlling us and us retaining choice.

Government's nature will install tracking devices & cameras on our cars. DAAAMN!

TMAC54 says

Please, for the sake of freedom, post your counter points !

I have no counterpoints to the silly Muslim bs or the claims of socialism.

I'm disappointed in Obama because he has not been willing to stand up to the corporatocracy/Plutocracy. Because he caved in on undoing the Bush tax cuts based on the lie that tax increases on incomes over 300k will hurt the economy. Because he didn't even try to do the correct health care reform (medicare for all - not forced - but an option - although everyone should have some kind of insurance).

He behaves like even more of a republican in disguise than Clinton did, so all of your "he's a socialist !" talk is surreal from my perspective. It's pretty hard for me to fathom the emotion behind such silliness.

MAybe it's because you know you're supposed to hate him, and you can't choose any real policies and back them up, because Obama's done most of what McCain would have done, except probably way less war (as hard as that is to imagine).

TeaMac, the only feeling your post above evoked was vicarious embarrassment.

marcus says

MAybe it's because you know you're supposed to hate him

Love & Hate is the same thing. (from the book "ONE") Obama is insignificant to me. HIS ACTIONS though, will fubar our future.

I truly hoped someone would scratch at least half of those lines for the benefit of my Grandchildren.

What SCARES me, My Father fought in England in WWII. He pointed out to me, most people said, " OHHHH leave Adolph alone. He will soon mend his ways and everything will be OK". History does repeat itself. People just don't want to confront bad news.

Virtually ALL presidents elected since the inception of television have been the better looking one. I avoid the "American Idol" like campaigns like the plague. Have you seen "WAG THE DOG" do you think similar scenarios are NOT played out in MANY aspects of gubmint ? I do not judge by the cover (the lead puppet).
I pray to retain rights for the people instead of CORPORATIONS. Even Jim Kramer of "Mad Money" stated this country's spirit used to be of the people by the people and for the people. It has become of the corporation by the corporation and for the corporation.
The Protests are about TOO many things to simplify, just like that list. Not just one single straw to break the camel's back. MANY people see a bleak future.
Any GUBMINT is needed only to protect it's people. OURS protects banks instead of it's people. WHY ?

If the gov't loaned me 66billion dollars, I could pay it back in a year. I'd invest much of the money in a low risk savings account then repay it and keep the interest.

APOCALYPSEFUCK is Tony Manero says

The protests are about:

Shove your fist up the bankster's ass!

Rip out bankster's heart!

Stick a toothpick in it!

Drop into martini for garnish!

Toast bankster!

if that were the case, more working folks would be there, and it would have happened in 2008.

these hippys are just smoking dope, looking to meet chicks, and pretending to be their crazy Aunt Star that wears the tie-dye moo-moo and collects Indian Feather dream catchers.

When someone starts talking for these people, we're all going to be in trouble. These kids Are out for an evening on the town. There is Not a cohesive topic of demonstration. All it will take is a creative mouth piece to step up and speak in their proxy.

I don't know why they are getting so much attention. The numbers are less significant than the attendance at an Eric Clapton concert.

And city Parks, are you kidding me? Who are they trying to convey their message frustration too, Marge Smith, the weekday park frequenter that jogs through the park every week day morning, pushing her baby stroller?

I've been waiting for years, for a good old fashioned "Stick it to the Man" protest. Now that we've got one, it's as lame a "Woodstock 2000" and similarly the new version, doesn't stand up to the original.

1. You are expecting too much from the early days of a movement. How cohesive were Tea Party rallies in the beginning?

2. "Pot smoking hippy kids". What are the actual demographics? Are you projecting your wishes or reality?

I think a lot of it, is indeed youngish people some of whom graduated after 2005, and have been waiting for their their "real careers" to start for a long while now. Others are recent grads who have never known anything BUT GD 2.0 it seems, and went into college thinking it would be all over with by the time they got out. Boomers are still squatting on the job spots they hoped to occupy, so of course they have a lot of frustration.

All of the kids with Piss and Vinegar are out there making their future happen. They aren't at the city park demanding their middle aged income bracket and life experiences NOW at 21.

These dolts see minimum wage jobs, or entry level jobs as beneath them. I saw them as life experiences. You have to work the worlds worst crappiest job,(in your opinion) at some point in your life, to realize you deserve better.

As Vincent pointed out, Boomers are still squatting on the job spots they have occupied, because there's no young challengers with the stuff to oust them.

Those of us over 40 can count our lucky stars, if this were ten years ago. We'd be the ones on Wall Street creating a rabble that some young punk took our Jobs.

This is unique in modern economics. From Sales to IT, the faces are getting older than ever before.

MarsAttacks! says

But I thought everyone on p-net said that the TP stuff was organized and ran by the Koch Bros? So, which is it?

I don't know of any concensus on this matter.

Personally I'm of the opinion the first month or so had some real grassroots people. Back when they claimed to be independent. Those people were of course later pushed to the margins by the Koch-fueled drive to exploit them as GOP shock troops. These days there's no question about it, you could take a hypothetical candidate and list off positions that a Teabagger agreed with with and watch them nod yes yes I'd vote for that person. Then tell them, oh by the way this person is a Democrat or 3rd party candidate and watch them freeze. Tea Party is now the rightest wing of the GOP and utterly subservient to that. Ron Paul has been booed at Tea Party events when he deviates from any GOP dogma.

The GOP says

Vincent pointed out, Boomers are still squatting on the job spots they have occupied, because there's no young challengers with the stuff to oust them.

My point was not about "stuff", it was about Boomers feeling they cannot retire because their retirement cushion and medical worries panic them. So they cling to their job with both hands and will not get out of the way. I see a lot of jobs filled by hidebound oldsters who want to bore the interns talking about their hip surgery, who cannot or will not go out to pasture. Yeah yeah, great story about punch cards Gramps now let me show you how your new phone works one more time....

Vicente says

Personally I'm of the opinion the first month or so had some real grassroots people. Back when they claimed to be independent. Those people were of course later pushed to the margins by the Koch-fueled drive to exploit them as GOP shock troops.

Right, originally there were some grass roots people, but then they got astroturfed by the Kochs and other GOP supporters.

Agree with Vicente's characterization here:

Vicente says

Tea Party is now the rightest wing of the GOP and utterly subservient to that. Ron Paul has been booed at Tea Party events when he deviates from any GOP dogma.

Ron Paul is an odd duck in the Republican party. He is far more libertarian than a typical GOP member, but is farther to the right on many issues than the typical GOP member. This puts him in an odd part of the 2D political spectrum.