patrick.net

Bap33 says

the "cost" is easily dropped as soon as the recurrence that is now the norm goes away. Dead guys do not do these crimes ever again.

I am not sure what you are trying to say here. I think you are trying to say that if we kill the offenders they will not commit more crimes or have to pay any up keep costs? Therefor reducing crime and lowering costs?

yes, that, plus the fact that new offenders will have some very good negative-reinforcement for doing such crimes also.

I understand what your point is about the cost of carrying out a proper execution. But, the largest part of that cost is the fraudulent ALCU/Defense lawyers taking actions to delay the process and tie-up courts. That is the largest reason for the high cost of an execution, I think. And, that is a reason that can be adjusted.

Here's something I would like to add to this part of the topic: The person that comes forward with an accusation should be serve the penalty of the crime if they are found to be a false witness.

Bap33 says

I understand what your point is about the cost of carrying out a proper execution. But, the largest part of that cost is the fraudulent ALCU/Defense lawyers taking actions to delay the process and tie-up courts. That is the largest reason for the high cost of an execution, I think. And, that is a reason that can be adjusted.

The reason that death sentences are so costly is that there is a higher standard of evidence, and more "chances" to prove your innocence. The more of these "fraudulent" chances -- as you put it -- removed the more likely that an innocent person will be executed.

You are correct that you can make executing people cheaper than life in prison, but the trade off is that you will execute more innocent people.

Until we have floating robots that monitor and record the actions of every American the legal process to prove guilt, deserving of execution, is going to continue to be very costly and still execute innocents.

Also, life in prison, with out the possibility for parole, is just as effective at protecting your child from a killer as execution, and the deterrence effect of the death penalty is questionable.
http://www.law.columbia.edu/law_school/communications/reports/summer06/capitalpunish

The deterrence effect is a whole other conversation.

Bap33 says

Here's something I would like to add to this part of the topic: The person that comes forward with an accusation should be serve the penalty of the crime if they are found to be a false witness.

Why, are you planning on committing a horrible crime and want any victims/witnesses deterred from accusing you?

Do you really want a system where you witness Glenn Beck raped and murder a girl. Then after you go to the police Glenn Beck uses his considerable influence and money to beat the rap, and proving your "false witness". Would you even have come forward in the first place with the chance you would have to serve the penalty for rape and murder?

I'll say this for Christianity, it's a pedophiles dream come true. Where else could you become a member of an order when you have free rein to molest children to your hearts content. Someone questions you, your questioning God if you question me. Too many complaints from the community, well they will just move me over to another parish where no one knows me yet. And a crop of new victims. If any embarrassing allegations do surface, well just pay off the families. It wasn't until the mid 1980's that this behavior got any attention at all in the press. You have to wonder how many children have been victimized over the centuries and if it was tolerated (and protected) for so long, within the church, how much it has grown within the church over the years. I wonder if there are questions on the priest applications forms, do you like to touch young children, before they allow another member to join there exclusive society to covet children.

ChristianGuy says

religion does not have a monopoly on war or controlling people.

No, but it sure is the flavor of the week...

Dan8267 says

Go to any red state. You'll find lots of Christians rejoicing when someone gets the death penalty.

While your point is well taken, I think that was a bad example. You must admit there is a difference between killing and murder. If you do, maybe you could concede that, while maybe not appropriate, capital punishment is not the same as murder.

Still, there are many people in red state America who go crazy about the idea of abortion, but rejoice at the thought people being murdered (Dr. Tiller in Kansas) or abortion clinics being bombed.

rdm says

it does provide some fame work directly or indirectly
(through laws) to keep human society marginally functional

I don't need someone else's religion providing a framework for my morality, and I don't want the laws of my community based on anyone's religion. We really can live good lives without "abrahimic" religions, we're just too stupid and lazy to do so.

leoj707 says

The question is how many innocent people you think should die so we can kill the guilty ones, and how much more money are we willing to spend to kill someone rather than keep them in prison for life.

In my opinion, those are the strongest arguments against the death penalty (they are the only arguments against it that I agree with), and either of them, by theirselves should be enough to convince us stop using the death penalty.

Bap33 says

the fact that new offenders will have some very good negative-reinforcement for doing such crimes also.

Capital punishment really doesn't deter crime. After decades of watching the issue we've clearly seen that. The role of capital punishment is to permanently remove dangerous predators from our community. The argument used to be, why pay for these assholes to live the rest of their lives with 3 hots and a cot? Well now we also know the reason to pay for that is because it's cheaper than killing them.

ChristianGuy says

No Christian I know would ever condone murder.

What is war? What is false accusations of Bush admin. Justifying the murdered and wounded in Iraq and elsewhere. Think about it.

ReasonNotFaith says

Capital punishment really doesn't deter crime. After decades of watching the issue we've clearly seen that.

That is not ture. If the puishment of a capital crime is a QUICK PUBLIC death on the same block that the bad guy lived on, then there is a deterant for the next generation, as well as a guarentee there will not be a release and redo of another crime from this same bad guy.

Punishment is a deterant ... that is why speeding costs money ... People avoid speeding, or driving without a license, to avoid a monitary punishment. Personal mortality is a high price to pay. I submit that it is the greatest price to be paid. So, for a murder 1 conviction, a public hanging on the bad guy's block is a deterant. If you disagree, then why agree with forcing a man to live in a zoo full of filthy humans for life? A deterant? Protect public? The fact that it is removed from public view results in low effect on the next generation. Hang the murderers in the public square and the next generation will avoid murder. Betcha.

Gangsters would really have trouble getting the next generation in line if gangsters were hung in public too.

Except that capital punishment isn't meted out on the town square, so I'm calling bullshit on your right-wing fantasy-land. It has absolutely no effect whatsoever on the rate of crime or acts as ANY deterrent when a perpetrator makes the concious decison to commit a crime, other than that person/s scheming to actually not get caught, and somewhere before, during, or after them committing the crime.
People speed all the time, it's just a matter of whether or not they get caught doing it, so that's not an effective deterrent either.

EightBall says

Go to any blue state and you'll find lots of people supportive of allowing little girls to obtain certain surgical procedures and specific drugs without their parents consent.

By little girls, you mean 16-year-olds? There's a big difference between a 16-year-old and a 5-year-old. And by certain surgical procedures and specific drugs, I take it you mean abortion.

I don't see what the abortion issue has to do with the fact that Christians in red states often rejoice during an execution. I made that observation to show that sometimes some Christians do condone murder. This is true whether or not you are pro-life or pro-choice.

ReasonNotFaith says

While your point is well taken, I think that was a bad example. You must admit there is a difference between killing and murder. If you do, maybe you could concede that, while maybe not appropriate, capital punishment is not the same as murder.

Analysis, of course, follows semantics rather than precedes it. We should agree on a nomenclature before forming arguments even though we could always choose a different nomenclature and translate our arguments accordingly. As such, let me submit my definitions, which I have chosen for clarity alone, and then my basic philosophy.

kill - To end a life.

murder - To kill a person without his permission and on purpose.

euthanize - To kill a person with his permission and at his request and on purpose.

newTerm1 - To purposely kill a person who is incapable of stating whether or not he wants to live on the assumption that the person would want to die because of his condition.

Killing is not immoral of itself. An accidental killing is not necessarily immoral even though it is tragic.

Deliberate killing is not immoral of itself. Euthanasia is moral. For examples, see Kevorkian's work.

Murder is always an evil, but committing murder might not be immoral if it is the path of least evil. For example, killing a madman who has a gun before he can kill other people is the path of least evil. As such it is a moral act even though it is not desirable.

Soldiers killing other soldiers in war is murder and is evil, but it may or may not be immoral because it might be the path of least evil that the soldier can take. Yes, evil is still done, but it is minimized and that's the best the soldier can do. Of course, not all soldiers can claim that their kills were the path of least evil or no killing would have been done.

Capital punishment is murder and thus also evil. Some argue that the murder is justifiable. I would not agree unless you can prove that it is the path of least evil and not just blood vengeance as the people cheering executes implies. Now I might very well want someone to die for harming a love one, but that does not make it less evil. From what I have heard on both sides of the arguments, I have to agree with Penn and Teller that life imprisonment is more just.

Euthanizing a person is killing but not murder, and therefore is not evil or immoral.

I've coined the word newTerm1 because I don't know of an English word for it distinct from euthanize, which I've already used. NewTerm1ing a person is killing. It's a bit harder to decide if this should be considered murder or not. Given the intent is to help the person, I would lean towards considering newTerm1 to not be murder or immoral. It, however, might be evil if the doer is incorrect about the person's wishes.

A moral person attempts to minimize evil and maximize good. Sometimes the optimal solution is simply the least evil among several evil outcomes.

Bap33 says

If the puishment of a capital crime is a QUICK PUBLIC death on the same block that the bad guy lived on, then there is a deterant for the next generation, as well as a guarentee there will not be a release and redo of another crime from this same bad guy.

You make a good point for why bad people should die, but you totally ignore the other problems associated with the state killing alleged offenders... Is that an accident or on purpose?

Bap33 says

If you disagree, then why agree with forcing a man to live in a zoo full of filthy humans for life?

If I were king, our prisons would be managed much differently than they are now, I can promise you that. We do a very poor job of managing prisons and inmate populations.

Dan,
a soldier killing an enemy in war is not murder. I am pretty sure you know the difference between murder and killing.

Dan8267 says

Murder is always an evil, but committing murder might not be immoral if it is the path of least evil.

Ok, I was with you using your definitions until you came to evil. Please define it, please specify who gets to define it.

I don't accept the idea of an absolute good or evil. Good and evil are subjective measures of they way people or situations affect us personally.

http://cofcc.org/2010/05/science-daily-whites-have-lowest-instance-of-maoa-l-gene-which-is-linked-to-aggression-violence-crime-and-sexual-abuse/

Bap33 says

http://cofcc.org/2010/05/science-daily-whites-have-lowest-instance-of-maoa-l-gene-which-is-linked-to-aggression-violence-crime-and-sexual-abuse/

So many problems with this article:

"Researchers have censored their own findings..." points to a dead blogspot link.

It doesn't say that the Italian court gave the defendant a lighter sentence because of MAOA-L, just that the defense brought it up.

And the only functioning link is to a study run by a political "scientist" (politics is not a science, but philosophy) and behavioral economists (also not a science), rather than psychiatrists, neurologists, or biologists (real scientists). Administering various levels of hot Sauce? Where? On the tongue? In the eyes? In the imagination? How did that work?

Cortez, Pisaro, Heydrich and Clive would be very interested to discover they didn't have the MAOA-L to slaughter great masses of people.

Bap33 says

Dan,

a soldier killing an enemy in war is not murder. I am pretty sure you know the difference between murder and killing.

Please read my full post before commenting on it. By the nomenclature I proposed it is. However, nomenclature isn't important, meaning is.

In any case, soldiers killing soldiers is evil. At best, it's the least evil out of a set of evil choices.

Please re-read the following part of my prior post:

Analysis, of course, follows semantics rather than precedes it. We should agree on a nomenclature before forming arguments even though we could always choose a different nomenclature and translate our arguments accordingly. As such, let me submit my definitions, which I have chosen for clarity alone, and then my basic philosophy.

murder - To kill a person without his permission and on purpose.

ReasonNotFaith says

Ok, I was with you using your definitions until you came to evil. Please define it, please specify who gets to define it.

fact - A statement that can be verified or disproved. Examples: Today is Tuesday. I like ice cream.

opinion - A statement that cannot even in principle be proven because it is a judgement. Example: Ice cream tastes good.

assumption - A proposed fact or opinion to be accepted as a premise. Assumptions come in three varieties: primary, principle, and convenience.

primary assumption - An assumption that must be accepted in order to have a meaningful dialog. Example: We exist.

principle assumption - An assumption that if accepted allows for further judgements, but if rejected prevents furthers judgement. Example: Life has value.

convenience assumption - An assumption that is not necessary, but simplifies discussion or decision making if accepted.

good - The set of all principle assumptions that refer to desirable states. Examples: Life has value. Love is good.

evil - The set of all principle assumptions that refer to undesirables states. Examples: Murder is evil. Hate is bad.

So by your definition, good and evil are subjective, same as I view it, correct?

What if you hate murder?

http://www.youtube.com/embed/qF3yNWvVwxg

Jesus seems reasonable. Additions to what came before. The key word there of course would be ADDITION. To the people that brought you 9/11, Iraq and debt slavery. ADDITION is very appripo. I watch as the hangmen of the "1%" snicker and try to repress their smiles. While they play the "99%" like fiddles with bullshit of old brought to you by some very well aged usuor's.

IE: if gays ever saw what the Catholic church was really about and the bullshit they pulled on them with what they have done would rip the doors off of the Vatican. I do however still think it is a great social organization place to meet women and get a free drink. There is nothing wrong with being who you are. Of course.

The ADDTION has intruded on many. It was orignally intented for the Hebrews. There is one glaring reason the addtion was made. I will not go into that just yet, however. What the two addtional religions do as you might suspect is to make the world their books reach. Makes their people and their world into a world very similar to jews. It is no coincidence. Again see them snicker and try not to laugh.

Not unlike what I feel is the complete fakery of the Atom bomb. Which gives people like the United States. The countries of the U.N. the excuse to rush in on every country they feel is not following and doing what they want. Also to stablize the regimes of the various cronies that particpate in the bullshit of addtion and the bullshit of the atomic age. So in short Religion was the Atom bomb of yesterday. It still works of course. In some ways.

You can see how I virtually decimated Israel of today filled with usury 17 banks to be exact. Everyone there has to get a mortgage to get a house. They sell land. It is filled with things that are forbidden to them.

As I wait for the smoke to arise and Jesus to swoop back in very patiently and clean up the mess and give me a little fucking justice. I wonder if that does not serve someones purpose. Being a good boy. Sittling around while the usuor's take over the world with asswipe.

THE ONE GLARING FAILURE OF THE OCCUPY MOVEMENT IS: they do not bring up the fact that asswipe is no good it has no value. That means to me that they are either stupid. Or want to prepetuate it. I DON'T LIKE THAT. See people see this melding into the same old same old with the same fucking thing with different people that will go bad quickly. Because if you use asswipe as foundation. Then they will quickly overcome you. That is left out of the equation. I don't like it.

Now if gays. Really understood what Sodom was about. How that word is even a factor. Then they would understand jump for joy at the fact. That it had an entirely different purpose. One that was misused against them.

What this is of course is this. The rest of the world was not meant to be Hebrew. Its oh so virtuious it would seem. The intent just like Iraq with its Iranian pipeline to its refineries. Chinese bullshit of we are the other side. However they are digging for oil there to. Same as the Russians. Oh no the intent was not Opiate.

However pacification. Just like an Obama who is part of a 12% minority. Which just ain't natural to elect. Especially here. No matter how much you think other people may feel guilty about someones plight. Add to that the new NBA owner running for election in Russia. It's called pacification folks. The proped up puppeted governments of Afganistan and Iraq. People we see pacification every single day.

So stick the pacifier in the childs mouth. I am not fooled. Obama wins again. Its just to volitle as of yet. The black people can stare at the touchdown they did not make. Someone else did. Feeling satisfied. It is good to be a nice person. However your fucking yourself by being naive. While they roll over your relateds, lands and take everything they have and divi it up. Think to yourself. Would your people elect a white person with a 12% white minority? Just is not natural. You may be a liberal to. However just being that doesn't cut it.

I watched Egypt. As a muslim minority was installed. Much to the relief of the happy, religious. I also watched what may have been an Egyptian soldier a woman being beaten. That splashed all over the headlines. Of course all of the injured and dead for their cause took a back seat. The majority of Egyptians are pissed off course. As you try to corral the rest of the world into believing that Egypt has a muslim majority.

Send your firepower in Abdullah you really don't belong there of course.

Enter King Abdullah who's ancestors were great inventors of relgious bullshit. Lets have a Haj, Abdullah. Funny you don't look Jewish. Leave it up to a clever Hittite. To envoke a God over his people similar to the Hebrew God that would keep them all in line, absorbing his part of the world. Can you say Julia Roberts? All though you may fit the APB of a wild jackass.. I don't think so. More pacification or relgious angst. Depending on what kind of outrage you can stir up. It's so fucking transparent.
Your part of the deal Abdullah your people were sewing tents of course. Your ancestors showed up a little late. They wrote a good bullshit story for them. Nothing like the real thing or something that sounds like it to scare the shit out of people. After all God never really gave a shit about anyone else but the Hebrews, his people. Abraham for everyone else. So thats the truth of it.

The above fail to recognize their day is done. I just love watching all of them live in denial. I find it hysterical. Also as I watch the people of Washington all connected to banking in one way or another. Sit and wait for the miricle of the asswipe to happen. The naive ordinary people of the country taken again into more debt slavery. Did Mr. Obama represent Bank of America out of Chicago as an attorney? The key here is not the person or the position. The key might be some very quick thinking agile swindlers. Who knows how play the everyday person.

Before I say have a sunny day. Do right. This has become a world of theft. Think about your future.

ReasonNotFaith says

So by your definition, good and evil are subjective, same as I view it, correct?

Depends on how you interpret subjective. Morality isn't arbitrary, but it isn't absolute. However, some morality does get developed in such a way that mimics some of the properties of convergence evolution. Two society with come up with the same solution to the same problem, so their moral codes will be remarkably similar on some issues.

ArtimusMaxtor says

I watched Egypt. As a muslim minority was installed. Much to the relief of the happy, religious. I also watched what may have been an Egyptian soldier a woman being beaten. That splashed all over the headlines. Of course all of the injured and dead for their cause took a back seat. The majority of Egyptians are pissed off course. As you try to corral the rest of the world into believing that Egypt has a muslim majority.

Artimus, with respect, that's not what happened. The same military figures who served under Mubarak still rule, the voting is still taking place. This was an act of the leftovers from the Mubarak Regime, not the Muslim Brotherhood.

http://www.youtube.com/embed/ung4zxDKMfY&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL

This video so convienient. Yet so appripo.

Well I guess Iraq is having troubles. I love the daily bullshit brought to attention. If they were really fucking telling the truth. The Iraqi people have attacked just about every day in one way or another.

Most religions are batshit crazy at the outset. THey need that to grow rapidly like a startup.

They need time to simmer down once they attain some critical mass.

Islam is 700 years newer than the other two. Maybe in 2710 we can see whether over time all religions tend to moderation

Let the various factions of Islam kill each other until they are exhausted from all the violence and destruction. It worked for Christian Europe in the 1600s.