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Feel like I missed the boat in the bay area


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2013 Mar 29, 1:56am   29,144 views  115 comments

by jdubbs29   ➕follow (0)   💰tip   ignore  

Well, I stayed out of the craziness from 2005-2010, but started to look about 18 months ago. Found a place I wasn't absolutely crazy about, but was doable financially, and in a good area for $800K, well within my budget with about $200K down.
Didn't do it, though, and now that same place is on the market for $1.3M...18 months later!

I feel like I should have pulled the trigger back then. There wasn't a ton of inventory, but my payment would be doable.

I'm in a rent controlled apt, so at least my rent is cheap, but considering a buy out and now the real estate market has gone crazy here again. It doesn't make any sense, but his herd mentality is very real.

(sigh) very tough to figure things out here.

#housing

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25   mell   2013 Mar 29, 6:26am  

Blurtman says

If you find a place you like and can afford it, buy it. Timing the market for RE is insane. It's a house dammit, not a futures contract.

Not anymore ;) The riverboat gamblers have been out in full force and they finance and securitize anything and anybody as long as the interest rate is low enough.

26   RealEstateIsBetterThanStocks   2013 Mar 29, 6:36am  

do not buy in the BA. save money and retire early.

27   MsBennet   2013 Mar 29, 6:39am  

IDDQD says

MsBennet says

IDDQD says

MsBennet says

And 600K loan is a jumbo loan so you can't get the lowest interest rate.

In SFBA it's not jumbo up to $625,500. Which buys $780K house with 20% down.

Well, your numbers are still off.

"Off" how exactly? I'm pretty sure re 625 being roughly 80% of 780. ;)

1700 per month for a 600K house payment. That doesn't exist. Little thing called property tax.

28   PockyClipsNow   2013 Mar 29, 7:04am  

I"m not trolling.
I have a 5 year IO arm at 2.875 finaced about 675k
After tax break i live there for 1800 a month. This doesnt count fire insurance. But there is no hoa.

i really dont see any intrest rate risk. However my situation is different i have enough cash to pay off the loan in full right now.

You people who think a rate spike will come so you get a 30 year fixed why dont you simply wait for the rate spike THEN BUY a home for half off? (because its not gonna happen)

3 Year Interest Only Adjustable Rate (unionbank.com)
(figures are for financing 729k)
Rate Points APR Closing Fees Payment Total Cost
2.750% 1.000% 3.258% $22,098.00 $1,670.63
3.000% 0.500% 3.271% $18,453.00 $1,822.50
3.125% 0.250% 3.278% $16,630.50 $1,898.44
3.250% 0.000% 3.284% $14,808.00 $1,974.38

Note the closing fees are estimates and way higher than will actually happen, i know I just closed one last year. call them up now!

29   PockyClipsNow   2013 Mar 29, 10:43am  

Its true if you have no real down and have to go FHA then that loan is way more expensive.

30   farmer11   2013 Mar 29, 10:53am  

PockyClipsNow says

3 Year Interest Only Adjustable Rate (unionbank.com)

(figures are for financing 729k)

Rate Points APR Closing Fees Payment Total Cost

2.750% 1.000% 3.258% $22,098.00 $1,670.63

3.000% 0.500% 3.271% $18,453.00 $1,822.50

3.125% 0.250% 3.278% $16,630.50 $1,898.44

3.250% 0.000% 3.284% $14,808.00 $1,974.38

Note the closing fees are estimates and way higher than will actually happen, i know I just closed one last year. call them up now!

So if go to www.mortgagecalculator.org and type in 729k over 30 years at 2.75% I'm getting a payment of $2,970. What am I doing different than you?

31   PockyClipsNow   2013 Mar 29, 11:04am  

farmer11 says

PockyClipsNow says

3 Year Interest Only Adjustable Rate (unionbank.com)

(figures are for financing 729k)

Rate Points APR Closing Fees Payment Total Cost

2.750% 1.000% 3.258% $22,098.00 $1,670.63

3.000% 0.500% 3.271% $18,453.00 $1,822.50

3.125% 0.250% 3.278% $16,630.50 $1,898.44

3.250% 0.000% 3.284% $14,808.00 $1,974.38

Note the closing fees are estimates and way higher than will actually happen, i know I just closed one last year. call them up now!

So if go to www.mortgagecalculator.org and type in 729k over 30 years at 2.75% I'm getting a payment of $2,970. What am I doing different than you?

That calculator is adding a principal payment.

For IO loan you dont need that calculator its simple intrest.

So take 729,000 * .0275 this is 20,047 per year intrest or 1670 a month.

The prop tax should mostly be zeroed out by the tax break. Add fire ins and hoa and thats it.

As long as prices go up enough to sell and cover your 6% selling costs this loan seems pretty safe. 5 years should be plenty of time to get a 6% gain.

So main benefits of this loan are:
1. no principal payment allowing you to qualify for MUCH HIGHER LOAN
2. principal payment is not a tax write off anyway
3. if you want to make principal payments, do it there is no prepay (at unioinbank anyway)
4. Pretty low rates, lower than the FHA or 30 year fixed.

My friend with kids is scared to death of this loan when I told him. (hes afraid of rate spike and having to refi into 7% ha!)
Well that didnt happen yet but his job relocated him from LA to Fremont,ca - HES FUKED ANYWAY with no rate spike- has to get half the house he has now.

Anyway my point is there is so much more that will submarine 'your house' that is not in your control so may as well get an ARM loan. Divorce, illness,job loss all these are constantly happening all around us, im more worried about those than a bond market blow up.

32   thomaswong.1986   2013 Mar 29, 11:55am  

SFace says

Everyone who borrows above 625K are on floating rate (5 year fixed perhaps). I repeat, no one uses a fixed rate mortgage so need to talk about a 30 year mortgage in silicon Valley. It doesn't exist.

The type of loan Porky described is the norm. (80%)

prior to 2000, fixed 30 yr was the norm. 90-95%... before the insanity began.

during normal market period, pre2000, we didnt need crazy loans to buy a home.

everyone is just committing financial suicide for all the wrong reasons.

33   thomaswong.1986   2013 Mar 29, 12:00pm  

Homeboy says

Homeboy says

What kind of retard would get an adjustable rate mortgage right now? Rates have nowhere to go but up. If you don't lock in the lowest interest rates in history, you are a fool.

difficult to say what prices will do given what rates do.. rates go down and so do prices...
it was true in early 90s and more recently.. rates going up.. prices can still go down ... or up based on irrational expectations of home buyers.

But we may well still see protracted low rates for a very long time still. yes its crazy !

34   thomaswong.1986   2013 Mar 29, 12:12pm  

SFace says

30 years fixed rate mortgage have been the wrong/disaster choice for 30 years. people are smartening up.

like i said.. after 2000.. EVERYTHING went to shit...

35   thomaswong.1986   2013 Mar 29, 12:35pm  

SFace says

Most in silicon Valley moved on and continue to live their lives and take on floating rate mortgages.

how old are you again, how long have you been around that makes you an expert on the economic norm and what people can control. ... please ! some chump from the city is going to tell me what the economic norm is in Silicon Valley. Laughable!

Yes... after 2000, all we have is hustlers and fraudsters...every jack ass started to hustle homes like a ATM money making machine..

if you have no concept of the past.. you have no concept what is normal... fraudsters are very good at creating distractions." this time its different". LOL!

36   yup1   2013 Mar 29, 1:06pm  

Homeboy says

I'm gonna be laughing my ass off in 7 years when I'm still paying the same
low rate and these other suckers' time-bomb loans blow up in their faces.

What makes you think interest rates are going to go up in the medium term?

Why would you be laughing when the resale value of your home will be cratering as interest rates rise?

37   mell   2013 Mar 29, 1:12pm  

None of the ~20 people I know here in the SFBA has an adjustable mortgage, every single one either 15 or 30 year fixed. While this is not statistically significant, I highly doubt that floating mortgages are the norm. And if they are on the rise it won't be long until the next disaster. Fine with me as long as they don't get bailed out again ;)

38   Homeboy   2013 Mar 29, 1:47pm  

yup1 says

What makes you think interest rates are going to go up in the medium term?

Rates don't have to go up. If you get an interest-only loan, your payment goes up dramatically at the end of the interest-only period, even if rates haven't gone up. What's more, you still owe the ENTIRE balance of your loan, because you haven't paid down the principal at all. What's the advantage to taking out an interest-only ARM?

I think that, sometime in the next 30 years, interest rates will go higher than they are now. If you have an ARM, you will have to pay that higher rate, I will never have to pay a higher rate.

Are you guys even aware that the mortgage rates we currently enjoy are unheard of in history? This is the lowest they have ever been. I don't understand why you would believe they will stay at their lowest forever. Do you even know that the universe existed before the year 2000?

Note that chart stops in 2009. The bottom of the chart is 4%. I believe rates are around 3.5% right now.

39   Homeboy   2013 Mar 29, 1:49pm  

yup1 says

Why would you be laughing when the resale value of your home will be cratering as interest rates rise?

A) I doubt the resale value of my home is going to "crater". B) I have no plans to sell it anyway.

My payment will never change.

40   Hysteresis   2013 Mar 29, 1:56pm  

1) nobody can predict rates in the near to intermediate term.
nobody.

2) long term, odds are rates will increase.

3) any purchase strategy that requires rates to decrease or stay flat over the long term is dumb.

41   Homeboy   2013 Mar 29, 2:07pm  

mell says

Fine with me as long as they don't get bailed out again ;)

You know they WILL get bailed out, right?

42   mell   2013 Mar 29, 2:39pm  

Homeboy says

mell says

Fine with me as long as they don't get bailed out again ;)

You know they WILL get bailed out, right?

Yeah, unfortunately. Although I think interest rates will keep rising and the fed will run out of steam and will have to wind down which makes future bailouts much more difficult. 16 trillion and counting.. ;)

43   thomaswong.1986   2013 Mar 29, 2:55pm  

Homeboy says

mell says

Fine with me as long as they don't get bailed out again ;)

You know they WILL get bailed out, right?

agree... and WE pay for it.

44   thomaswong.1986   2013 Mar 29, 2:57pm  

SFace says

contrary to popular belief, taxpayer don't really lose in a capital infusion, it is the shareholder and bondholder.

you mean those who have savings/investments/pensions... who are the shareholders/bondholder other than US

WE or US its the same..

45   Homeboy   2013 Mar 29, 4:00pm  

SFace says

contrary to popular belief, taxpayer don't really lose in a capital infusion, it is the shareholder and bondholder. That's why they only infuse companies that will survive. The US government/taxpayer gets paid every red penny with interest eventually.

Ooh, I love fairy tales. Tell us another.

46   yup1   2013 Mar 29, 4:07pm  

Homeboy says

A) I doubt the resale value of my home is going to "crater".

So you link a chart and say that rates are going to go up, but you doubt the resale value of your home will crater if rates go to the historic norm. Did you fail math?

47   yup1   2013 Mar 29, 4:11pm  

Homeboy says

B) I have no plans to sell it anyway.


My payment will never change.

If rates rise you wont be able to sell it for the price you paid because you wouldnt be able to afford it at the price you paid at a higher interest rate. The very essence of a bubble, when you cant afford to buy the very home that you own because the payment would be too high.

48   Homeboy   2013 Mar 29, 4:25pm  

SFace says

* you'll have to realize the delta of the two loans. A 30 years fixed rate and 5 year arm has about a 1 % APR delta.

Speak English.

SFace says

* So in 5 years, the ARM holder will save a lot of interest up-front vs the fixed. It will have to flip by 2% to even have the argument that 30 year fixed are better.

That's nonsense. You do not "save a lot of interest" with an interest-only ARM. Exactly the opposite. First, let's stick to 3 year interest only ARMs, since that's what we're discussing. If you only make the minimum payment, after 3 years, you STILL OWE THE ENTIRE BALANCE OF THE LOAN. So you have made mortgage payments for 3 years and have not paid down the principal even ONE CENT. It's amazing that people can't figure out what "interest only" means, but many don't seem to be able. The bank even warns you, but you do have to click open a pop-up window to see it:

"With an interest only mortgage payment, you will not pay down the loan's principal balance during the interest-only period. Once the interest-only period ends your payments will increase to pay back the principal and interest. Contact your mortgage consultant to determine what your payments might be once the interest-only period ends."

Hint: they ain't gonna be lower.

SFace says

* There's always a cap (annual and lifetime) perhaps 5%. So the worst it can go is 7.875%

Union Bank says it's 6%. I would rather pay 3.875% for 30 years (fixed rate) than pay as much as 9.25%.

SFace says

* you mitigate that risk if you have the ability to pay off the funds anytime. Most ARM borrowers have the means to pay off chunks. The point of interest only ARM is to build assets. 7% of 100K is only 7K or 7% of 0 is 0.

I agree that's the point. So why is Pocky advising people to use an interest-only ARM to buy a house they couldn't otherwise afford?

The only reason you might want a 3-1 interest-only ARM is if you have some super great place to put your money where you'll earn more than the amount you lose by not paying down the principal on your house. There is no such place at this particular time. So I see no reason for ANYONE to take out such a loan, and ESPECIALLY someone who is stretching his resources to try to buy a house outside of his affordability.

SFace says

* Over the course of the next 10 years, there will be other outs. When interest rates rise, assets ride along with it.

All the more reason to have a fixed rate loan. If interest rates rise and I have an ARM, my home payment will be higher, so I would be LOSING assets.

SFace says

* There's no best answer but there are compelling reason to use IO arms. To me 30 year fixed rate is expensive insurance which may benefit some people and useless for others.

The way it is being proposed here in this thread would fall under the "useless" category.

49   Homeboy   2013 Mar 29, 4:27pm  

yup1 says

If rates rise you wont be able to sell it for the price you paid because you wouldnt be able to afford it at the price you paid at a higher interest rate. The very essence of a bubble, when you cant afford to buy the very home that you own because the payment would be too high.

What's your point?

50   Homeboy   2013 Mar 29, 4:33pm  

PockyClipsNow says

You people who think a rate spike will come so you get a 30 year fixed why dont you simply wait for the rate spike THEN BUY a home for half off?

First of all, I don't think home prices will fall 50% when interest rates go up. That's pretty ridiculous. Second, if I wait for interest rates to go up, then I'm stuck with a higher interest rate. I got a low interest rate by buying in 2012. So why would I want to wait for them to go up?

51   yup1   2013 Mar 29, 4:53pm  

Homeboy says

PockyClipsNow says



You people who think a rate spike will come so you get a 30 year fixed why dont you simply wait for the rate spike THEN BUY a home for half off?


Because I don't think home prices will fall 50% when interest rates go up. That's pretty ridiculous.

I will give you an example nice and slow so you get it.

I buy a house for 500k 20% down 400k financed at 3.5%
Principal and interest $1,796

Interest rates rise to 6.5% and I want to sell my house to the next sucker. He has 20% down.

400k financed at 6.5%
Principle and interest $2,528

To get to the same payment I enjoy the next guy either has to come up with 215k down or pay me a lot less than 500k for my shit shack.

My point is if interest rates rise substancially over the next few years home prices will tank. You will become a zombie homeowner if they don't. You will not be able to move because you will not be able to afford the higher payment. Again the very definition of a bubble.

52   bmwman91   2013 Mar 29, 5:00pm  

yup1 says

My point is if interest rates rise substancially over the next few years home prices will tank. You will become a zombie homeowner if they don't. You will not be able to move because you will not be able to afford the higher payment. Again the very definition of a bubble.

Or, all the people that locked in low rates just won't list their house for sale since they don't think that they will get a price they like for it. That will further decimate inventories, which will inevitably just push prices higher on whatever is for sale.

53   Homeboy   2013 Mar 29, 5:10pm  

yup1 says

I will give you an example nice and slow so you get it.

Fuck you, asshole. Take your childish sarcasm and shove it up your ass. Fucking troll.

54   Homeboy   2013 Mar 29, 5:12pm  

yup1 says

So you link a chart and say that rates are going to go up, but you doubt the resale value of your home will crater if rates go to the historic norm. Did you fail math?

Yeah, I missed math class 'cuz I was fucking your mom. She said she was sorry she had you.

55   yup1   2013 Mar 29, 5:14pm  

bmwman91 says

Or, all the people that locked in low rates just won't list their house for
sale since they don't think that they will get a price they like for it. That
will further decimate inventories, which will inevitably just push prices higher
on whatever is for sale.

I agree that people won't list. They wont list because they wont be able to afford the higher payment at the next place. I dont agree that prices will be pushed higher. Most people can only afford a certain payment amount, a little more or a little less.

56   yup1   2013 Mar 29, 5:15pm  

Homeboy says

Fuck you, asshole. Take your childish sarcasm and shove it up your ass.
Fucking troll.

I see why you called yourself HomeBOY!

57   yup1   2013 Mar 29, 5:16pm  

Homeboy says

Yeah, I missed math class 'cuz I was fucking your mom. She said she was sorry
she had you.

My mom is 72, I hope you enjoyed that old piece of ass!

58   Homeboy   2013 Mar 29, 5:17pm  

Gee, George - that loan has a lower payment. It must be better.

59   Homeboy   2013 Mar 29, 5:19pm  

yup1 says

My mom is 72, I hope you enjoyed that old piece of ass!

She was in her prime back when I boned her. Sucked dick like a champ!

60   yup1   2013 Mar 29, 5:21pm  

Homeboy says

Fuck you, asshole. Take your childish sarcasm and shove it up your ass.
Fucking troll.

I see is doesn't take much to spin you up. Now if you would like to grow up a little you can always try and explain why you do not understand how rising interest rates are going to impact your investment.

61   Homeboy   2013 Mar 29, 5:36pm  

yup1 says

if interest rates rise substancially over the next few years home prices will tank.

Yeah, everyone knows rising interest rates cause home prices to "tank".

Oh, wait - no they don't.

62   thomaswong.1986   2013 Mar 29, 5:40pm  

yup1 says

You will become a zombie homeowner if they don't. You will not be able to move because you will not be able to afford the higher payment. Again the very definition of a bubble.

tanking home prices back a rational normal levels is good..what good are higher home prices if it puts your income in jeopardy... kiss your job/career goodbye.

63   Homeboy   2013 Mar 29, 5:40pm  

yup1 says

I see is doesn't take much to spin you up. Now if you would like to grow up a little you can always try and explain why you do not understand how rising interest rates are going to impact your investment.

No, it takes a lot. It takes an asshole troll like you, who doesn't know what the fuck he's talking about, and is saying a bunch of shit that has nothing to do with anything, just to try to get a rise out of people.

My house is not an "investment". It is a place for me to live. If the value of my house declines in the future, I am much better off having a fixed-rate loan. If I had a NINJA loan that's going to blow up in my face, I might be forced to sell. If I'm not able to, I would lose the house. It happened to millions of people. Do you ever look at a newspaper, by chance?

Do you have an intelligent explanation for why a 3/1 interest only ARM is a better choice than a 30-year fixed rate right now? Or do you want to keep acting like a little jackass?

64   yup1   2013 Mar 29, 5:46pm  

Now inflation adjust that chart and you will see real prices flat to lower. You can also see that most of the gains are after the short term rate spike. In fact all of the rate spikes lead to lower home prices and all of the drops lead to higher prices. Thanks for backing me up.

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