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Good One Morpheus


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2013 Mar 31, 5:09am   42,568 views  199 comments

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1   curious2   2013 Mar 31, 6:15am  

LOL - if you add up all of the posts by atheists "bashing" religion (e.g. Dan exposing logical fallacies), and even add the sum total of all criticism of religion generally (financial improprieties, molesting children, etc.), they don't add up to even 1/10th of the official pro-religion messaging. Just yesterday evening I saw POTUS on C-SPAN intoning piously about the celebration of Easter, which he presented as a Christian holiday when in fact it's a pagan celebration of springtime and fertility, hence the rabbits and eggs which have no role in Christian doctrine but were always part of Easter.
"Unpacking the Pagan Elements of Easter"
Objecting to historical revisionism, whether Orwellian or religious, isn't about bashing religion per se, it's more like objecting to realtors' misleading sales pitches about piles of lumber on dirt.

So Marcus, go object to all of PatNet, tell AF that he can believe housing is overpriced without bashing realtors. Or just continue to ignore everyone who objects when you say 2+2=5, because it feels to you like 5, and then you claim to be a math teacher.

2   upisdown   2013 Mar 31, 8:36am  

LOL, not to mention that the catholic church went to a lot of trouble to reinvent the calender from a Julian to Gregorian, so as to have Easter/Passover(or whatever you want to call it) not coincide with the Spring equinox celebrations.

But the funniest part is the extent to which people will go to defend some pretty irrational and illogical myths.

4   MisdemeanorRebel   2013 Apr 16, 2:03am  

curious2 says

"Unpacking the Pagan Elements of Easter"

You mean the Jesus Bunny? He was caught and skinned alive, but in his death, he bequeathed us chocolate eggs.

I don't need to bash belief in the Easter Bunny, Tooth Fairy, or Santa because it's rightfully socially unacceptable for somebody past the age of puberty to believe in such nonsense.

5   upisdown   2013 Apr 16, 2:30am  

thunderlips11 says

You mean the Jesus Bunny? He was caught and skinned alive, but in his death,
he bequeathed us chocolate eggs.

Hallelujah=yellow peeps, or so I've been told.

6   leo707   2013 Apr 16, 4:00am  

curious2 says

LOL - if you add up all of the posts by atheists "bashing" religion (e.g. Dan exposing logical fallacies), and even add the sum total of all criticism of religion generally (financial improprieties, molesting children, etc.), they don't add up to even 1/10th of the official pro-religion messaging.

And I would hardly call it "constant." I would bet that if one were to add up all the posts by religion bashers somewhere under 1/10th of their posts would have anything to do with religion.

7   MisdemeanorRebel   2013 Apr 16, 4:25am  

Word, Leo, and bashing atheism is a preoccupation of the religious. I'd say the bashing of science by the religious - including "Spiritual" people - is more frequent than it going the other way.

Nobody likes it when they are called to present evidence in something they believe, and they got nothing but 'possibilities'. They don't even like the existence of doubters.

Hatred of skeptics and doubters is also part and parcel of the UFO Mythos, Bigfoot Believers, and not a few socio-political beliefs. In fact, an alleged "Skepchick" refers to those who demand evidence of Patriarchy (and the Historical Alleged Matriarchy) as "Hyperskeptic", meaning she can't or won't produce evidence - however elegant her just so stories are at first blush.

Edit: The funniest example of this is "Objectivity is just Male Subjectivity", which is a ludicrous attempt to pooh-pooh demands for evidence.

8   leo707   2013 Apr 16, 4:33am  

thunderlips11 says

That, and bashing atheism is a preoccupation of the religious.

I am assuming that this thread is marcus' final atheist bash. From here on out marcus is choosing to lead by example and is going to avoid bashing any beliefs of another person regardless of how misinformed and illogical he may feel those beliefs are.

9   marcus   2013 Apr 17, 1:08pm  

thunderlips11 says

I don't need to bash belief in the Easter Bunny, Tooth Fairy, or Santa because it's rightfully socially unacceptable for somebody past the age of puberty to believe in such nonsense.

But implied here is that you have to project a child's sky daddy version of religious belief, in order to feel fully comfortable with your your own nonbelief.

leo707 says

I am assuming that this thread is marcus' final atheist bash.

It's not an atheist bash. I guess you missed the point.

10   leo707   2013 Apr 17, 2:25pm  

marcus says

leo707 says

I am assuming that this thread is marcus' final atheist bash.

It's not an atheist bash. I guess you missed the point.

It is entirely an atheist bash. I am sorry that you missed that.

Few atheist speak their mind when confronted by religious, and very few (none I have seen on this board included) "constantly" are bashing the religious. Even amongst people famous for being atheist there are not many that are "constantly" bashing religion.

It seems to me that this graphic is effectively telling atheists to sit in the corner and shut-the-fuck-up if they disagree with religion, because you-know to disagree with a religion is a very offensive bash. With the attitude expressed in this graphic it encourages every religious person to dismiss any atheist criticism of religion because "those people" are always bashing religion. To me, and probably to any atheist, that kind of image comes off as a smug and self-righteous bash against all atheist.

Anyway, this is all about you and dan. I swear if you two were ever to meet in person, within 30 seconds, it would probably devolve into a silly slap-fight or hot make-out session.

You two probably agree with each other on most issues non-religious, but you can't find it in yourselves to communicate like civilized human beings. Can dan be an offensive boor? Hell, yeah. But, that is something that you both have in common. I have noticed though that you two can also be decent civil individuals as well, just apparently not to each other.

11   Dan8267   2013 Apr 17, 3:58pm  

marcus says

Good One Morpheus

What if I told you, you could oppose pedophilia wherever you found it, without being accused of "being an arrogant ass who is religious about not fucking kids"? All you have to do is keep your damn mouth shut whenever you see a kid being molested in a shower by a football coach or priest.

Isn't tolerance wonderful?

12   marcus   2013 Apr 17, 11:07pm  

Wow, it's true, he really is a genius. Perfect analogy there timmy.

You know they have an entire subreddit where all the teenagers who have just discovered that there isn't an old white guy with a beard up in the clouds go to impress one another with their brilliant break throughs.

13   marcus   2013 Apr 17, 11:31pm  

By the way, in my opinion, it's when atheism becomes more about "opposing all the other religions" rather than simply not believing in God, that it becomes a religion itself (meaning like a religion).

Sure, one can nitpick and say technically atheism is not a religion. I call it that though, when it takes on several religious attributes, such as putting their belief system above all others. IT's the ultimate arrogance to want to tell others what their spirituality should or should not look like (unless you are an ordained minister - and even then I prefer not to be told what I should or should not believe).

Get it ?

14   Bigsby   2013 Apr 17, 11:48pm  

marcus says

By the way, in my opinion, it's when atheism becomes more about "opposing all the other religions" rather than simply not believing in God, that it becomes a religion itself (meaning like a religion).

Sure, one can nitpick and say technically atheism is not a religion. I call it that though, when it takes on several religious attributes, such as putting their belief system above all others. IT's the ultimate arrogance to want to tell others what their spirituality should or should not look like (unless you are an ordained minister - and even then I prefer not to be told what I should or should not believe).

Get it ?

No. That post would be better directed towards those with religious beliefs rather than atheists. What exactly do you think religious people have been doing for thousands of years, ordained minister or not (though I fail to see why that mitigates your 'ultimate arrogance' argument)?

15   Bigsby   2013 Apr 17, 11:50pm  

marcus says

Wow, it's true, he really is a genius. Perfect analogy there timmy.

You know they have an entire subreddit where all the teenagers who have just discovered that there isn't an old white guy with a beard up in the clouds go to impress one another with their brilliant break throughs.

What exactly is your problem? Non-believers have religion rammed down their throats at every turn. A handful of people publically speak out against it and you take a fit. Get a bloody grip.

16   marcus   2013 Apr 18, 12:01am  

Bigsby says

Non-believers have religion rammed down their throats at every turn.

Yes, but that's religion.

So if I understand you correctly, you advocate religiosity in atheism.

17   Bigsby   2013 Apr 18, 12:05am  

marcus says

Bigsby says

Non-believers have religion rammed down their throats at every turn.

Yes, but that's religion.

So if I understand you correctly, you advocate religiosity in atheism.

No, I support the right of people to express their views most especially when those views are actually supported by evidence.

Get it?

And seriously, what is your point? That atheists should keep quiet? Why? How about religious people keep quiet? I suspect when that happens atheists won't have much to speak out against. As it is, I don't walk down the street and see large atheist meeting places every few blocks. I don't see atheist TV channels. I don't see countries where speaking out against atheism results in punishment. I don't see leaders standing up when terrible things happen and the first thing they say is asking everyone to think about all the hard-working doctors who are doing their best to save the lives of those injured. And on and on it goes.

19   Bigsby   2013 Apr 18, 12:12am  

I think you've already posted that before, and it didn't impress the first time round.

20   marcus   2013 Apr 18, 12:19am  

I am not opposed to all bashing of religion. Especially ignorant fundamentalists.

In my argument with Dan, that has gone on for years, he argues that ALL religion is bad, evil in fact, and he KNOWS that the world would be better with no religion.

People are different. Details man.

21   Bigsby   2013 Apr 18, 12:30am  

marcus says

I am not opposed to all bashing of religion. Especially ignorant fundamentalists.

In my argument with Dan, that has gone on for years, he argues that ALL religion is bad, evil in fact, and he KNOWS that the world would be better with no religion.

People are different. Details man.

Why wouldn't the world be a better place? What would be the terribly negative consequences if there were no more religions? What major advancements have they brought?

22   Dan8267   2013 Apr 18, 12:54am  

marcus says

Wow, it's true, he really is a genius. Perfect analogy there timmy.

General form of argument being proposed by both Marcus and the pedophile example:

1. There exists a harmful thing, X.
2. You notice the harmful thing X.
3. You have to options.
   a. Speak up to prevent X and save people from harm.
   b. Say nothing to avoid offending those in favor of X and thus allowing others to come to harm.
4. You choose option b because social acceptance is more important to you than the well-being of others.

Yes, Marcus, it is a perfect analogy no matter how much you dislike it. And making childish references to masturbation is not a convincing argument otherwise.

23   Dan8267   2013 Apr 18, 12:56am  

marcus says

Sure, one can nitpick and say technically atheism is not a religion.

marcus says

I never said and do not believe that atheism is a religion. Quite the contrary.

Contradiction much?

24   Dan8267   2013 Apr 18, 12:58am  

marcus says

By the way, in my opinion, it's when atheism becomes more about "opposing all the other religions" rather than simply not believing in God, that it becomes a religion itself (meaning like a religion).

Give me one damn reason that I should not oppose great power structures built on lies, deception, and violence that have done great evil throughout history and continue to make the world a far more dangerous and less free place than it should be.

Give me one reason why I shouldn't oppose such evil, especially when I can do so non-violently with reasoning and words.

25   Dan8267   2013 Apr 18, 1:03am  

Bigsby says

What exactly is your problem? Non-believers have religion rammed down their throats at every turn. A handful of people publically speak out against it and you take a fit. Get a bloody grip.

His problem is that the world has finally reached a level of education, knowledge, and wisdom to see that all the arguments in favor of religion and mythology are wrong and that the arguments in favor of rationalism and naturalism are right.

His problem is that the world is now smart enough that it is inevitable that his side will lose. Rationality has won the war on mysticism. Luckily this has happened in the nick of time. Another century of religious bullshit and we'd all be dead in WWIII. Rationality barely won the war in time before our technology far exceeded our wisdom. But damn, it was close.

27   Dan8267   2013 Apr 18, 1:19am  

marcus says

he argues that ALL religion is bad, evil

And I've supported that argument with evidence and reasoning. You support your assertions with

marcus says

Especially ignorant fundamentalists.

I.e., every religious person that does anything that undermines your argument. That's about one third of America and the majority of people in the Middle East. I guess there really aren't any true Scotsmen; just fundamentalists in kilts.

28   marcus   2013 Apr 18, 1:44am  

Dan8267 says

Thank you. Exactly. You make my point extremely well. There might be hope for you after all.

African Americans don't waste their time bashing white supremecasts and they don't define their blackness as being all about hating white supremacists.

Similarly Gay individuals have no problems with straight marriage, and never feel the need to bash it, and certainly don't define their sexuality as being all about how they aren't like straight people.

Good job, and thanks.

29   MisdemeanorRebel   2013 Apr 18, 2:00am  

marcus says

Sure, one can nitpick and say technically atheism is not a religion.

There's no nitpicking about it. Not believing in Yetis, the Loch Ness Monster, or Betty and Barney Hill's alien abduction is not a religion. Ergo, not believing in a Personal God, a Impersonal Divine Architect, or anything else is not a religion.

30   MisdemeanorRebel   2013 Apr 18, 2:06am  

Bigsby says

What major advancements have they brought?

I got up this morning and created artificial light by flicking a switch, liberating myself from having to plan my day around sunshine. Thanks Science.

Then I made coffee with my hot water heater. The coffee was also brought via an array of combustion engines to the supermarket, which is where I brought it. Thanks Science.

I sit and type on this computer, which is entirely due to science.

I can't think of anything that makes my life better thanks to Religion.

31   MisdemeanorRebel   2013 Apr 18, 2:07am  

marcus says

African Americans don't waste their time bashing white supremecasts and they don't define their blackness as being all about hating white supremacists.

What? The SPLC, the NAACP, etc. doesn't invest time, money, and energy in combating supremacists? News to me.

32   Dan8267   2013 Apr 18, 2:30am  

marcus says

Thank you. Exactly. You make my point extremely well. There might be hope for you after all.

33   Dan8267   2013 Apr 18, 2:34am  

thunderlips11 says

What? The SPLC, the NAACP, etc. doesn't invest time, money, and energy in combating supremacists? News to me.

Don't waste your time trying to reason with Marcus. Anyone who would suggest that Martin Luther King would advocate African Americans shut the hell up about civil rights in order to not rock the boat during the age of segregation and criminalizing interracial marriages is ether the biggest moron in the world or an outright liar, and a poor one at that.

34   Dan8267   2013 Apr 18, 2:38am  

humanity says

People seem to need to generalize.

Yet when we quote thousands of years of specifics from ancient times to today, we're accused of using "fundamentalists" instead of true Scotsmen. You can't have it both ways.

I can talk damn detailed specifics or universal principles. Both the macro and micro views paint the same picture. Irrationality bad. Rationality good. Superstitious lies bad. Science and the truth good. Rewriting history bad. Accurately preserving historical knowledge good. Quick frankly, I don't see why some people need those things proven, but the plethora of historical evidence supports those conclusions.

35   MisdemeanorRebel   2013 Apr 18, 3:02am  

Word, Dan, Word.

Assume that Jesus was an historical man - which is doubtful to everybody except Bible Scholars, who are specialized literary critics and not scientists. Assume that Jesus originally said not just what he claimed to have said, but only the "good" things attributed to him. Eliminating the bits about hating your family, eliminating the bits about he has not come to bring peace, but to bring a sword, etc. as a later addition by "Men".

Even so, the Inquisition, Witch Burnings, the worship of suffering and resistance to anesthetics*, rampant anti-Semitism, burning of heretics and unbelievers, flagellation, justification of slavery**, etc. all grow up out of it anyway

. In fact the distortion of what Jesus said happened too.

You know, if the tree giveth forth bad fruit, fuck the tree.

* http://ecti.english.illinois.edu/reviews/52/vannatta-snow.html
** Slavery existed before the monotheistic religions. However, after the Enlightenment got underway, the most resistance to banning slavery came from those who used the Bible to say "Hey, slavery is not condemned in either the New or Old Testament". How many more years of freedom, and how many less years of slave ships, would there have been if this crutch didn't exist for slavery defenders?

36   marcus   2013 Apr 18, 3:07am  

So Dan equates as follows:

Marcus says: or implies, that most (what 95%?) individual African Americans don't waste any of their time or energy bashing white supremacists and they do not define themself by their hate for white supremacists.

(the meme says, you can be a black American without bashing white supremacists. I agree. Very much like I think you can be an atheist without CONSTANTLY bashing religion.)

Dan's translation of this:

Dan8267 says

Anyone who would suggest that Martin Luther King would advocate African Americans shut the hell up about civil rights in order to not rock the boat during the age of segregation and criminalizing interracial marriages is ether the biggest moron in the world or an outright liar, and a poor one at that.

And he almost simultaneously talks about my use of straw man argument and poor reading comprehension.

What is the point of debate or conversation, when one won't try to understand the other's point of view ? When the only goal is to win ?

What's a good indication of who is actually right in a discussion or debate like this ?

I think it's, which person is most willing to accurately understand and portray the other person's position ?

37   marcus   2013 Apr 18, 3:14am  

thunderlips11 says

Word, Dan, Word.

So you agreee:

Some religion is bad, therefore all religion is bad.

That's cool. Dan always points out my lack of argument with most everything he says. I don't need to argue it. I only need to clearly state his position.

You guys can have all the fantasies you want about my arguing that there is an old dude with a long white beard in the clouds, or that I support atrocities committed in the name of religion. Go for it. I have no need to argue any of the mischaracterizations of my original point here.

38   humanity   2013 Apr 18, 3:30am  

thunderlips11 says

How many more years of freedom, and how many less years of slave ships, would there have been if this crutch didn't exist for slavery defenders?

We have no way of knowing how different the world would be if there had never been anything resembling religion or spiritual beliefs. Is it possible that humans would be even more malevolent than they are ?

But it is interesting that you note the way that people used religion to rationalize slavery (correct), and yet totally ignore the extent to which religion was involved in the movement to end it.

39   MisdemeanorRebel   2013 Apr 18, 3:33am  

All religion is bad, Marcus. All religion eventually leads to fundamentalist branches.

In fact, converts to cults are overwhelmingly people who grew up in nominally or liberal denominations. Interestingly, those with either a very atheist or very fundamentalist background don't join cults often.

Liberal/Mainstream Religion gives cover to extremists. because they support reverence to God and the Spiritual, which allows extremists to state that what they are doing is no different, only a higher level of commitment.

"Those men have simply been misguided. The (INSERT RELIGION NAME) doesn't teach that killing people is the way to achieve (Nirvana/Afterword)".

40   leo707   2013 Apr 18, 3:40am  

humanity says

But it is interesting that you note the way that people used religion to rationalize slavery (correct), and yet totally ignore the extent to which religion was involved in the movement to end it.

Christians helped end slavery, because they were good people, not because of the moals their religion taught. In fact they had to cherry-pick and "soften" their biblical interpretations (that overwhelmingly support slavery) in order to justify their opposition to slavery which is contrary to what the Christian God of the bible demands.

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