patrick.net

oh god.. if only one could adjust live lectures speed by 10-20% faster like a video...
faster first pass, quick review over key areas.. gulp gulp some coffee.. and your
set to for the next topic.

We don't need teachers. We need a national digital curriculum for all subjects. Education wouldn't cost anything and would be universally available if we went pure digital.

BLS statistics, new jobs for May:

Retail trade accounts for 27,700 of the jobs.

Wholesale trade accounts for 7,900 jobs.

Ambulatory health care services accounts for 15,300 of the jobs.

Waitresses and bartenders account for 38,100 of the jobs.

Local government accounts for 13,000 of the jobs.

Amusements, gambling, and recreation account for 12,500 of the jobs.

Temporary help services provided 25,600 jobs.

Business support services provided 4,300 jobs.

Services to buildings and dwellings provided 6,400 jobs.

Accounting and bookkeeping services provided 3,100 jobs.

Architectural and engineering services provided 4,900 jobs.

Computer systems design and related provided 6,000 jobs (most likely filled by H-1B work visas).

Management and technical consulting services provided 3,200 jobs.

The new hires can use their college level math classes to run the cash register or do the tip out at the end of the split shift at Appleee's.

Dan8267 says

We don't need teachers. We need a national digital curriculum for all subjects. Education wouldn't cost anything and would be universally available if we went pure digital.

That would work so well - if only it took into account that there are things that can't be learned online. Things such as working as a cohesive group, hands-on training, and being able to speak with other students who were in the class in order to get their take on what was said.

So far as replacing elementary thru high school with on-line, that doesn't replace the socialization and phys ed aspects. School is a social place as well as a place of learning. I saw the passion with which some teachers taught... and how apathetic others were.

Unfortunately, all the cattiness and childish competitive behavior I witnessed in high school continues throughout adulthood.

elliemae says

Things such as working as a cohesive group, hands-on training, and being able to speak with other students who were in the class in order to get their take on what was said.

I think you are describing a fairy tale for a lot of students today.
The student loan scam that these educators gorge on is modern peonage.
Are students today getting 4 times the education that they were in 1985?

Dan8267 says

We don't need teachers. We need a national digital curriculum for all subjects. Education wouldn't cost anything and would be universally available if we went pure digital.

Sure, some classes are just about learning the material and getting on with the things that matter. But I gained *so much* from interacting with professors -- I can't imagine (in other words, I don't believe) that could be duplicated with online content. No way. I'm all for putting the information online and making it accessible to all, sure...but to equate that with an education that you can get from interacting with the teachers/professors...it's not the same.

I'm no friend of the hidebound dunderheads of academe, but is anyone else sick of the anti-middle-class and anti-poor horror stories?

The wealthy get wealthier for the past 30 years. The rest of the classes get the shaft.

Meanwhile, the Internet horror stories of overpaid, pampered middle-class and lower-class Americans go on and on: "Lookit that ridiculous fireman's salary!"; "50% of Americans don't pay no income taxes!"; "Those teacher's don't deserve no pension - let 'em save their money like everybody else!"

Instead of asking why the rich get richer, the middle class and poor are turned against one another. Instead of asking "Why don't we get the same basic health care and retirement plans which teachers get?", people say "Why do those commie pigs get cushy benefits?"

It's amazing: one can steep people's brains in hatred for the people down the street, and make them identify with the residents of Park Avenue.

Robert Sproul says

elliemae says

Things such as working as a cohesive group, hands-on training, and being able to speak with other students who were in the class in order to get their take on what was said.

I think you are describing a fairy tale for a lot of students today.

The student loan scam that these educators gorge on is modern peonage.

Are students today getting 4 times the education that they were in 1985?

Umm, in my field yeah. What we know now (and teach) compared to 1985 is a huge difference. None of this new information would be known if we went to online, memorization-based curriculum back then (not that online was possible) and effectively fired all those worthless professors whose only job should be to teach people to take tests and do basic math. And if all we do is teach students to take tests and memorize (the online model) then who will be there to write the questions in 30 years.

Here's what people don't get about college professors. Yes we teach, do service to the university and our discipline (review papers, grants, other departments, generate curricula) but we are also our own CEOs and CFOs of our research programs. We understand what an important question is, do the background on that question, seek funding to collect data to answer that question, organize students to help with the project, order equipment and supplies, collect data, organize it, analyze it, spend months writing it up. We do this for several projects at a time, all of our own idea and will. No one tells you what to do, yet you still do it. But we are the bad guys here. Do you know who sets tuition rates? Not the professors, at least not where I work. Depending on the state and institution it is some kind of board of regents - local business leaders and politicians. The people worthwhile in society. If you want to see why student loan debt is so high spend some time at a cafeteria nowadays or cruise through the abundance of private dorms with olympic pools, tanning saloons and higher end retail on the bottom floor.

Robert Sproul says

I think you are describing a fairy tale for a lot of students today.

The student loan scam that these educators gorge on is modern peonage.

Are students today getting 4 times the education that they were in 1985?

How much of the increase is due to states cutting spending, and how much is due to schools gorging on the student loan boondoggle?

I found some information here:

http://www.cbpp.org/cms/?fa=view&id=3927

With a $2600 decrease in state spending per student (Kentucky) since 2008, that accounts for a significant portion of the total cost increase. Of course state spending on higher ed isn't just for subsidizing in state students, but it's probably a good proxy for it. It seems to me like the student loan fiasco has as much to do with shifting the burden from the state to the student than it does from lining the pockets of higher ed institutions.

As for the fairy tale of getting hands on training and group experience -- if students aren't getting that they are getting a bad deal. Don't overlook a state school or a community college if you are actually looking for an education. It won't be a big name diploma that comes with the connections and opportunities of an ivy league, but it won't cost an arm an a leg either.

robertoaribas says

A smart student can do 2 years at the local community college, then 2 years at the local state school, and even with zero parental support, get out with a manageable debt level.

Of course.
On the other hand:
•As of October 2012, the average amount of student loan debt for the Class of 2011 was $26,600, a 5 percent increase from approximately $25,350 in 2010. (Source: The Project on Student Debt)
The outstanding debt is a trillion fucking dollars. How much of that is a malinvestment in useless degrees?
Most studies indicate that only 1/2 of graduates work in jobs that require their degree.

robertoaribas says

We don't need teachers. We need a national digital curriculum for all subjects. Education wouldn't cost anything and would be universally available if we went pure digital.

hey so the idiot who knows nothing about real estate, yet post endlessly on it, is now, with zero knowledge about education, an expert on that too and ready to post away!!!

Yeah, all education is just memorization, there isn't a single professor out there teaching critical thinking skills, team work skills, analysis and synthesis of knowledge, communicating technical ideas, etc, ALL of which are highly touted as desirable by the business community.

I think Dan's onto something. There's definitely an overemphasis on theory over application, and we spend a disproportionate amount of our lives in classrooms listening to soft-handed, bloodless professors (no offense Rob, I don't mean you) who are less passionate pedagogs than simply professional students. The best way to learn is by doing it yourself or shadowing an old pro. I've learned a lot from experts just on Youtube.

Granted, no -- I don't want someone to perform a root canal who learned from YouTube videos...

Robert Sproul says

Are students today getting 4 times the education that they were in 1985?

Of course they're not. Prices are out of whack. But the institution of education needs to change, not the teaching part. There needs to be an emphasis on the actual education.

There are some crappy professors, but that doesn't mean that they're all bad. I think we're overloaded with administration and the other bullshit.

HydroCabron says

Instead of asking why the rich get richer, the middle class and poor are turned against one another. Instead of asking "Why don't we get the same basic health care and retirement plans which teachers get?", people say "Why do those commie pigs get cushy benefits?"

It's that way with everything. But what can we expect we just spent the bulk of the last two years vilifying success. So as a result, we bitch about anyone who has it better than us. Unless they are of the celebrity class, then it's expected that they shit in disposable jewel encrusted toilets.

robertoaribas says

meanwhile, tuition is now $85 a credit at my college. Does that sound way too expensive so as to cause a lifetime of debt?

I wonder how many of them would be in debt if they actually worked a job while in college. I did it. TWICE!

HydroCabron says

It's amazing: one can steep people's brains in hatred for the people down the street, and make them identify with the residents of Park Avenue.

Yep Propaganda works.

The guy Kessler, the author, probably a friend of Mish's (or Mish's overlords), is clueless.

As ellie said, a big part of k - 12 education, is social, learning to work with other kids and so on, it's about managing the classroom. Such things as taking into account what this group of students understand and what they don't understand, and then planning the next steps, is a complex interactive process. Not easily replaced by online curriculum.

Ironically, for children, an online curriculum (videos with tutors) would work okay only for the best and the brightest. You would have to segregate those children who already have the social skills to cooperate in that setting, from those who require more attention and more help adapting to the model.

It's sad, because those good students, the ones that the online model works for would probably do even better in the traditional interactive model.

And there still would be important timing and class management issues.

I actually do better with online (and, dating myself, video learning) than with the traditional classes I took.

Traditional classes: My lazy ass would say "Meh, need more sleep, worked a double yesterday" and I'd hurl the alarm clock across the room. Online class, when I got up naturally and had some time, and some coffee, I'd hit the books/computer/tv and burn through 2-3 lessons in a few hours' sitting.

I used to piss me off that the math classes at both colleges I attended were either at 8AM or 8PM, when I was at my brainpower nadir. Online classes, if I woke up at 4AM on some days, I could be working at 5AM until leaving for work at 7:30AM. Much more convenient.

What we pay for is verification of education. It's ridiculously simple to obtain the knowledge for just about any degree that doesn't require a lot of hands on labs or internships. Buy a textbook and read it through, so the exercises, and you learned a subject! What we pay for is someone signing off on the fact tha we learned something.

What would truly kill the college system and also be loved by employers is a universal testing system, like KLEP, where you can prove your knowledge of a subject and gain credit for it. Do that with about 35 subjects and you've got your Bachelors. Anyone with money for used books and time to study them could have a degree. Student loans would be for medical school or the like. Our current system of higher education hasn't changed much in 800 years. Isn't it about time?

Shouldn't this be in the Education section?

I think PatNet should have a thread category named Fussbudget to collect all the posts that start with "shouldn't this be…"
It could also include posts that in response to a quadrupling of education costs comment that the lazy whipper-snappers should get a job.
Or, maybe 4 jobs.

Robert Sproul says

Obsolete College Professors Resist Their Fate

...and when they came for the Professor's job, no one was left to give a crap.

Actually should import Indian and Asian professors, to teach our kids. Instead of issuing them Visas for making my Xbox and Siri search engine.

FWIW, Stanley Kubrick did terrible in high school, barely graduating. He subsequently dropped out of night school to play chess for a living.

Call it Crazy says

tells you to look up everything online,

Leading the way in online education.
Once again Roberto is ahead of the pack.

Call it Crazy says

robertoaribas says

yeah, you should hear the complaints students have, about not understanding their indian and asian TA's... Half the reason students take calculus at my school is dissatisfaction with exactly that at ASU.

I don't think your students are complaining about the indians or asians.... here's what one thinks of you...

...."Dropped the class within the first couple weeks because I realized I was paying him to do absolutely nothing. He doesn't teach at all, tells you to look up everything online, and is very unhelpful. I honestly don't understand how he still has a job. SCC needs to find a new teacher ASAP."

http://www.ratemyprofessors.com/ShowRatings.jsp?tid=643999

and the gloves are off..

robertoaribas says

what part of high school drop out qualifies you to evaluate higher ed?

I make the software you use to grade students.

English classes are the most useless. teachers didn't teach much they just told the class to read a book. read it out loud in class then bring the book home and read some more. then write about what you read. anyone could have done that by themselves without their help. software can correct your mistakes better than they.

English tutors were racist and gave me dirty looks because i was Asian. pfft!

complete waste of time. i learned my English via internet forums.

Mark D says

English classes are the most useless. teachers didn't teach much

Guess you went to a pretty crappy school, then, or didn't pay any attention. My english classes taught me to identify evidence, structure an argument, and prove a thesis. They also taught me critical thinking skills and the value of being skeptical when reading a text or watching a politican give a speech.

Call it Crazy says

i learned more about his Dog and how many motorcycles he owns, and how many sports he plays, and how big his shoe size is( yes he told this to the ladies in class)

You know what big shoes mean...big feet!

To be fair, there's an element of math involved in all of those scenarios.

HydroCabron says

I'm no friend of the hidebound dunderheads of academe, but is anyone else sick of the anti-middle-class and anti-poor horror stories?

The wealthy get wealthier for the past 30 years. The rest of the classes get the shaft.

Meanwhile, the Internet horror stories of overpaid, pampered middle-class and lower-class Americans go on and on: "Lookit that ridiculous fireman's salary!"; "50% of Americans don't pay no income taxes!"; "Those teacher's don't deserve no pension - let 'em save their money like everybody else!"

Instead of asking why the rich get richer, the middle class and poor are turned against one another. Instead of asking "Why don't we get the same basic health care and retirement plans which teachers get?", people say "Why do those commie pigs get cushy benefits?"

It's amazing: one can steep people's brains in hatred for the people down the street, and make them identify with the residents of Park Avenue.

Exactly! I have a good friend from childhood who has downed the right-wing Kool-Aide on this one. He sees an obese person and literally fumes. He sees them and thinks they are lazy, immoral and wasting his tax dollars for gluttony. BTW, up until the healthcare legislation, he had no health insurance. He is underwater on his mortgage and up to his eyeballs in debt. At age 40 he has saved nothing for retirement. Instead of resenting wealthy people, he identifies with them and feels that poor people are constantly screwing him over. I love him for our shared childhood memories and lots of other reasons, but we have to steer far from political discussions.