patrick.net

Carolyn C says

Crime is everywhere and you are kidding yourself if you think you are perfectly safe in any community.

That is such a ridiculous point. The question to answer is this, "Is much more crime worse than a little bit of crime?" Hmmm, I am stumped by what the answer might be…

Welcome to Oakland, more violent crime per capita than EPA! Sure, not EVERYONE is assaulted and I guess that isn't "that bad".

You little girls haven't told us what hick town you are all from.
It sounds to me like you are saying Oakland is unlivable. And yet there is a whole class of people above yourselves that continue to live in this city.

Wow.. this thread has really turned into Oakland fans vs. detractors.

I feel that Oakland has a lot to offer and there are plenty of great areas to live.

I will admit, if and when I live over there I definitely will be a little more aware of my surroundings.

When I am out driving I probably won't want to piss off any homies in their hoopdies (some of the freeways are a little mad max - I try to avoid 880 whenever I can).

Without question, I would avoid certain areas at night (much like I don't ever venture into SOMA at midnight on a weekend).

But, overall I think the crime situation in Oak is exaggerated and over-emphasized. I don't plan on living near International BLVD or in East Oakland, or, for that matter, even in North Oakland.

My favorite area is Grand Ave/Lakeshore. I also wouldn't mind living near the Ashby BART (preferably east of that area).

Carolyn C says

My home has never been broken into.

Obviously, because you are still here to type. Oakland isn't a place where there is high petty crime. It is a place where this is high violent crimes. The B&E is just an excuse so the criminals can pistol whip the owners. I blame Sega.

I lived in Piedmont for a summer, and I have a friend who lives around Mills College.

Both places are a paradise of gentle breezes, cool fogs, and blazing sunlight with great views of the Bay.

When I visit my friend, however, there are always an amazing array of scuzzie scuzzballs and street corner ranting psychos around. You see the hard, predatory stares from people on the street, but don't stare back because you don't know who's packing. Makes Santa Cruz look sane.

He doesn't take a lot of walks in his own neighborhood, has a few immediate neighbors who watch out for each other, and an advanced alarm system.

I have another friend who moved to Dublin from Oakland. He said he got tired because he and his kids just couldn't keep anything around the house that wasn't routinely stolen.

Here is where I live:

http://pacifica.patch.com/groups/police-and-fire/p/pacifica-makes-list-of-100-safest-cities-in-america

I didn't mean to imply that no one had a happy life in Oakland, but the violent crime is a BIG DEAL. Also, the idea that it would make sense that prices that fell quick would rise just as quickly worked me up a little.

Pacifica has its own issues. The crime rate isn't really one of them.

bg says

Pacifica has its own issues. The crime rate isn't really one of them.

I my mind, Pacifica should have home prices about 10x that of Oakland. I wouldn't live in Oakland if the housing costs were 1% of my salary. That is just me.

Now you guys are sounding more reasonable. I don't like the crime either. In my neighborhood people walk their dogs routinely. And yes I had some flowers taken from just off the street in front of my house not yet planted. How lame is that. I don't get the predatory stare downs like you guys do maybe because I'm a woman. I have noticed that happened with my husband and his friend while driving a couple of times. My hubbie just blows it off and doesn't even notice. Could be a male challenge thing. Over all my neighborhood is very nice and quiet. It is not the rich part of Oaklnd nor the poor part. Middle of the road. That could have some part in why I haven't been robed. Nor my neighbor in the 14 yrs she has lived there. I live a simple life. No night clubbing. I have to say honestly Oakland is a very beautiful city. And not the monster people make it out to be. But I was told before I moved to Oakland that it's all about the neighborhood.

Carolyn C says

What part of the city did your friends live?

575 63rd ST at Shattuck. Mostly seemed like a pretty nice neighborhood but obviously wasn't or was being targeted by burglars.

One of the incidents of someone breaking into their house was interrupted by a neighbor. Sounds like a great deal. What a great neighbor! Until they found out the neighbor had used a hand gun to chase off the burglar!

I also know they didn't report the last break-in to the police because they were planning to sell the house and didn't want the police report to show up. You do what you have to do. I don't blame them. I considered it great insight into what buying a house can get you into. No, thanks.

FT said: What a great neighbor! Until they found out the neighbor had used a hand gun to chase off the burglar!
The neighbor didn't happen to be Patrick McCullough, did it? Note from the article: A three-bedroom home about two blocks away recently sold for $731,000 after receiving 43 offers.

EBGuy says

The neighbor didn't happen to be Patrick McCullough, did it?

Ha, don't think so. Pretty sure this was someone right next door. You can imagine how my friends made-out selling that place and moving to Georgia. They couldn't believe the palatial options available to them when buying a house there.

bgamall4 said: The banks are buying by giving investment companies and private equity firms huge lines of credit to go in and jack up the prices.
Local player Waypoint just went public this past week.
"We have a $500 million (line of) credit closing shortly and $100 million of cash, so we have plenty of dry powder," he said.

edvard2 says

Carolyn C says

Oakland is not as bad as everyone makes it out to be. The bad PR comes from those that don't live in the area.

I agree. I spend a lot of weekend in Oakland. Its like anywhere else. There's good parts and bad parts. The same holds true in SF.

Agree, there are good and bad parts. Whenever the Chronicle reports crime in Oakland, they say "Oakland" instead of identifying the neighborhood it happened in (usually one of the ghetto ones). When there is crime in San Francisco, they name the specific neighborhood (e.g. Bayview or Tenderloin).

The other thing about crime in Oakland is that it's often criminal-on-criminal crime (gang/drug stuff). In San Francisco, the crime more often involves innocents and is often in the nice areas too (especially since some of the nicer areas have projects located within them or nearby).

The worst parts of Oakland are:
1) West Oakland waterfront/5th St to West MacArthur.
2) East Oakland around International in the 20s, between High and Seminary (about 40-60), and deep East Oakland from 70th Ave and further on the west side of Bancroft -- I'm talking about the neighborhood "East Oakland," not literally the eastern part of Oakland, which is nicer
3) the small part in the north near Berkeley from about 40th to Alcatraz between Telegraph/CA-24 and San Pablo -- the 575 63rd property mentioned above is in this area

Outside of those areas, it's not bad, although the East Oakland area in the flats is huge. If you're in the eastern parts in the hills and places like Rockridge, Montclair, Claremont, it's fine. The hills probably have some of the nicest homes in the Bay Area.

It's funny, as bgamall4 said, because certain parts of Berkeley are almost as much of a craphole as Oakland in many ways and never get the same bad rap, likely because of the university and the fact that the Berkeley Hills are as nice as the Oakland Hills. That crappy area of north Oakland runs right into the crapholes of Berkeley. The schools in Berkeley are just about as terrible as Oakland, only people who live in the People's Republic of Berkeley are proud of them because of their diversity.

conrtorllio ranted: The schools in Berkeley are just about as terrible as Oakland, only people who live in the People's Republic of Berkeley are proud of them because of their diversity.
Now, now... In my child's demographic group, kids score as well at they do in Albany, Orinda or even Cupertino. YMMV.

EBGuy says

conrtorllio ranted: The schools in Berkeley are just about as terrible as Oakland, only people who live in the People's Republic of Berkeley are proud of them because of their diversity.

Now, now... In my child's demographic group, kids score as well at they do in Albany, Orinda or even Cupertino. YMMV.

Translation: my rich white/Asian elementary school kid is doing just fine.

Not picking on you, EBGuy, as I generally respect your opinion. It's just that I know a lot of people who went to Cal and either volunteered or tried to volunteer at Berkeley public schools, and the phrase that keeps being repeated is "heads up their asses." The school district is a bit dysfunctional, even if the kids who were already going to do alright are doing alright.

corntrollio says

Outside of those areas, it's not bad, although the East Oakland area in the flats is huge. If you're in the eastern parts in the hills and places like Rockridge, Montclair, Claremont, it's fine. The hills probably have some of the nicest homes in the Bay Area.

The problem with the nicer areas is that you have to drive through the other parts coming and going.

Carolyn C says

My experience is that Oakland is not as bad as the media reports. Does Oakland have crime? Yes. Is Oakland the safest place in the world. NO. Is Oakland perfect? No. Does Oakland have a lot to offer. Yes. Please tell me what city in America is crime free. I met a lady that was held at gun point in San Ramon Rite Aid if I remember correctly along with others. The cashier dialed 411 instead of 911. So the lady said she ran out of the store because she knew help was not coming. The men chased her down and kicked her badly for running. She was suffering from health problems at the time. I met this lady in 2007 just after I moved to San Ramon. I was shocked that this happened in San Ramon. Crime is everywhere and you are kidding yourself if you think you are perfectly safe in any community.

Zactly how I feel about my stomping grounds. You can get your ass shot off, sure, or be taken hostage in your own home, or have someone start pounding on your door and all the windows in the middle of the night...all that shit happens around here, but it doesn't happen on Jody's street, so...pffffuck it: Shangri-la.

Prices here have also more than doubled since the slouch. We have drones, also.

Controllio said it perfectly. And yes the school district sucks! Except in the wealthiest neighborhoods. I wish I were rich enough to send my kids to private. Then I would have the best of both worlds.

From Groundwork starting to pay off in Oakland:
But in the second half of last year, the frequency of violent crime around the city began to ebb. There are still huge challenges ahead, but crime statistics suggest things are slowly getting better....
I don't usually buy government-generated buzz about renaissance and revitalization, and this is an election year, but there's something different at work here. If you consider sheer construction volume alone and the investment it represents, it carries an unfamiliar ring of credibility.
"This is not by accident - we're reaping the benefits of the 10K initiative, the benefits of art and culture," Blackwell said.

controllio said: The [PRoB] school district is a bit dysfunctional...
I don't disagree. They started "house cleaning" at the elementary school level over a decade ago and it's working its way through the system. The culture at the high school is just starting to change and it will take a while to turn things around. At the middle school level, approximately 50% of the students are eligible for free/reduced lunch; there are many challenges with such a diverse student body.

I think it's great that Carolyn C likes her town so much. We don't see enough of that; it's usually "I live here and it's so expensive and I hate it." So, while Oakland isn't for everyone, it's great for Carolyn. Good for you!

(to be clear, this is not sarcastic, snarky, or anything like that. Just pure, unadulterated, naïve, happiness.)

corntrollio says

The other thing about crime in Oakland is that it's often criminal-on-criminal crime (gang/drug stuff). In San Francisco, the crime more often involves innocents and is often in the nice areas too (especially since some of the nicer areas have projects located within them or nearby).

Check your facts. I think you'll find the two cities are more similar in that way than you suggest. I say this having regularly read a police blog for the Bayview/Potrero Hill area since that's where I live. That area, typical of San Francisco, has a police station that covers areas of extreme socioeconomic conditions. It is alarming when the crime happens outside of gang violence, but by percentage it still looks like the people who have the most to worry about are the people with less money.

http://www.bayviewpolicestation.org/apps/blog

FunTime says

I say this having regularly read a police blog for the Bayview/Potrero Hill area since that's where I live.

How does saying "poor people in less nice neighborhoods of SF face crime too" negate "in San Francisco, the crime more often involves innocents and is often in the nice areas too"? Explain that one.

corntrollio says

How does saying "poor people in less nice neighborhoods of SF face crime too" negate "in San Francisco, the crime more often involves innocents and is often in the nice areas too"? Explain that one.

I don't know. Who wrote your first quote?

FunTime says

corntrollio says

How does saying "poor people in less nice neighborhoods of SF face crime too" negate "in San Francisco, the crime more often involves innocents and is often in the nice areas too"? Explain that one.

I don't know. Who wrote your first quote?

It's a paraphrase of what you said in post #99 above. Your argument is "it still looks like the people who have the most to worry about are the people with less money." That wouldn't negate what I said at all, even if it were true.

Oh, right. My point was that the mix of people involved in violence in San Francisco is much like that of Oakland. So your idea that "SF crime more often involves innocents and is often in nice areas too" isn't the case unless it's also the case for Oakland. I don't think it's the case either place. Actually if I read what you wrote to mean "more often than Oakland" I might agree with you. I think I read it to mean "crime in SF happens more often in the nicer neighborhoods than the not nice neighborhoods" which I realize now wouldn't make sense by definition. Although, SF and Oakland can be kind of strange that way. I think I get you. Thanks for explaining, pointing it out.

This came across my Facebook newsfeed this morning.

http://news.kron4.com/features/people-that-endanger-other-people-in-oakland-behave-badly/

I am also glad Carolyn C likes her city. I would not like to live someplace where this happens. I am glad I have the choice not to live there.

I guess from a purely economic standpoint, maybe you could make money paying the price that the OP notes for a rental property. I don't think I would enjoy being a landlord there.

I can't believe how this thread has devolved. People like what they like. Different strokes and all that.

One of my best buddies who lives out in *yuk* Danville keeps telling me what a cesspool Oakland is and that I am crazy to buy there. But he and his wife spend 3+ hours a day commuting to/from SF for work. That is crazy. But he appreciates living in the land of BMWs and strip malls - I don't begrudge him of his choice.

We all can agree Oakland has some expansive sketchy areas. But there are some really nice areas too. I'd love to live near 580 or 24 and have a nice short commute either by car or by BART to my job in the financial district.

That is what I value. Maybe you value something else. Why argue about it? Why resort to name-calling?

Moreover, I've learned you don't really know what an area is like until you live there. You can't really know anything for sure until you have boots on the ground (which Carolyn does). I would more likely trust the opinion about an area from someone who lives in an area than from someone who does not live in that area.

Malkovich! I am in a similar boat. I have had good down payment money for a long time. I wish I had just bought a couple years ago when prices were somewhat low, but everything felt rigged even then. At this point, I'm turning from sort of a social democrat to a communist, I don't think people should be able to profit on any item that is a necessity: medicine, housing, basic food. The housing market is just plain nuts. I was born and raised in Palo Alto, lived most of my adult life in SF, there is nothing I can afford that is not an extreme fixer upper, and I don't have the skills, money or know-how to do the fixing. Meanwhile my cash has sat for years, not earning interest, because at heart I am not a gambler. I'm a hard worker, a sensible person, but I don't have the balls to gamble what it's taken 35 years of work (mainly as a seamstress/costume designer) to accumulate. It's all very distressing.

I lived in Oakland. The ice cream shop I used to frequent when I was younger now has an armed guard at the entrance. This is in the "nice part" of Oakland, too. Time for Oakland residents to stop apologizing for the thugs and do something about them.

Jemaho says

Malkovich! I am in a similar boat. I have had good down payment money for a long time. I wish I had just bought a couple years ago when prices were somewhat low, but everything felt rigged even then. At this point, I'm turning from sort of a social democrat to a communist, I don't think people should be able to profit on any item that is a necessity: medicine, housing, basic food. The housing market is just plain nuts. I was born and raised in Palo Alto, lived most of my adult life in SF, there is nothing I can afford that is not an extreme fixer upper, and I don't have the skills, money or know-how to do the fixing. Meanwhile my cash has sat for years, not earning interest, because at heart I am not a gambler. I'm a hard worker, a sensible person, but I don't have the balls to gamble what it's taken 35 years of work (mainly as a seamstress/costume designer) to accumulate. It's all very distressing.

Thanks for commiserating. I hope you don't also have a friend who thinks he is a financial genius because he was lucky enough to buy in those magical two years. It rubs salt in the wound. =)

RE your down payment money: You may want to put that in some conservative mutual funds. My banker has earned a boring yet solid 10-12% on my money for the last three years. She has my money spread out in about 10 different funds and has set it up so I can liquidate with minimal costs (class B shares, etc. - my eyes glaze over when she starts explaining it all - I just want to see the bottom line).

Thanks so much, Malkovich. I know I should be smarter with my money. I have a much needed lull in workload, and I am hacking away at my to do list, and I will put that on it. I think about Portland, certainly lurk on real estate sites as if they were porn sites and I an addict. Portland has also gone up like crazy, but it is still doable for me. However, I would have to flood my house with sun lamps and hope not to get suicidal. I wish you luck.

wave9x says

I lived in Oakland. The ice cream shop I used to frequent when I was younger now has an armed guard at the entrance. This is in the "nice part" of Oakland, too. Time for Oakland residents to stop apologizing for the thugs and do something about them.

Wow, that doesn't sound like the parts of Oakland I usually frequent (Temescal, Rockridge, Piedmont Ave, Grand/Lakeshore Ave, Park Blvd).

What street is this ice cream shop on?

No disagreements on Oak residents being fed up with their city's leadership. Then again, I have some pretty big problems with SF gov't too.

Jemaho says

I think about Portland, certainly lurk on real estate sites as if they were porn sites and I an addict. Portland has also gone up like crazy, but it is still doable for me. However, I would have to flood my house with sun lamps and hope not to get suicidal. I wish you luck.

Agreed. I go to visit friends in Portland every year. Though I always go in August when the weather is perfect. I thought about Portland a lot too (it really is the only place an SF-er can go) but, yes, the weather is a deal-breaker.

Jemaho says

Portland has also gone up like crazy, but it is still doable for me. However, I
would have to flood my house with sun lamps and hope not to get suicidal. I wish
you luck.

As stated before, I was born and raised there. I recently looked up the house that I grew up in (from age 3 till 15). I did know that my parents bought it in 1956, from Zillow I recently learned that it had been built in 1919. I know my parents bought it for $12,000 back then. When I checked on Zillow, it was now appraised at over $450,000. Yeah, Portland isn't all that cheap anymore.

Malkovich says

Agreed. I go to visit friends in Portland every year. Though I always go in
August when the weather is perfect.

Two seasons up there - the rainy season and August.

Jemaho,

With the fiat money system, many governments tends to print money. Hence, long term, money is fast depreciating and is preferably to hold real asset such as real estate. It is not gambling, merely hedging against inflation (depreciation of money). If you can't afford real estate, the best vehicle is dollar-cost averaging purchase of a near no-load index fund such as one based on S&P 500. Not to rain on Malkovich, the average annual return of such an index fund over the last three years is 15%-20% depending on when you start investing.

You may wish to read up on what is meant by dollar cost averaging, no load and pros/cons of an index fund (ask you agent or simply do a web search).

hanera says

With the fiat money system, many governments tends to print money. Hence, long term, money is fast depreciating and is preferably to hold real asset such as real estate.

A few questions flow from that:

Are real estate markets really not subject to the whims of governments? If government money-printing, as you call it, causes economic downfall, how do you know that real estate in that country will be insulated from that chaos?

Similarly, since your alternative is an S&P 500 fund, what makes you think that an economic downfall wouldn't affect your stock withholdings?

corntrollio says

hanera says

With the fiat money system, many governments tends to print money. Hence, long term, money is fast depreciating and is preferably to hold real asset such as real estate.

A few questions flow from that:

Are real estate markets really not subject to the whims of governments? If government money-printing, as you call it, causes economic downfall, how do you know that real estate in that country will be insulated from that chaos?

Similarly, since your alternative is an S&P 500 fund, what makes you think that an economic downfall wouldn't affect your stock withholdings?

I'm referring to long term and not talking about economic downfall, in fact, talking about going through many economic cycles (booms and downfalls).