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Occupied people have a right to exist


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2014 Jul 25, 8:45am   17,736 views  36 comments

by tovarichpeter   ➕follow (6)   💰tip   ignore  

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jul/16/gaza-shameful-injustice-israel-attacks-occupied-people

For the third time in five years, the worlds fourth largest military power has launched a full-scale armed onslaught on one of its most deprived and overcrowded territories. Since Israels bombardment of the Gaza Strip began, just over a week ago, more than 200 Palestinians have been killed.

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1   MisdemeanorRebel   2014 Jul 25, 8:49am  

That also means Donbass and Catalonia have rights, too, right Guardian?

2   The Original Bankster   2014 Jul 25, 8:59am  

dont forget Aztlantians:

3   FuckTheMainstreamMedia   2014 Jul 25, 9:07am  

Lemme ask you, if some weak dude keeps punching you over and over again, perhaps eventually causing bruising or even creating an open wound...at some point after telling him over and over again to stop...you eventually punch back and knock his ass down, correct?

4   The Original Bankster   2014 Jul 25, 9:15am  

dodgerfanjohn says

Lemme ask you, if some weak dude keeps punching you over and over again, perhaps eventually causing bruising or even creating an open wound...at some point after telling him over and over again to stop...you eventually punch back and knock his ass down, correct?

yes thats why Israel is invading Gaza.

5   MisdemeanorRebel   2014 Jul 25, 9:26am  

dodgerfanjohn says

Lemme ask you, if some weak dude keeps punching you over and over again, perhaps eventually causing bruising or even creating an open wound...at some point after telling him over and over again to stop...you eventually punch back and knock his ass down, correct?

Let me ask you, if 50 years ago a bunch of whacko 19th Century nationalists from Germany and Austria and Poland moved into your state and took it over claiming they once lived there 2000 years ago, and you've been fighting their takeover ever since, it's it wrong to keep trying to punch them?

6   Blurtman   2014 Jul 25, 10:20am  

thunderlips11 says

dodgerfanjohn says

Lemme ask you, if some weak dude keeps punching you over and over again, perhaps eventually causing bruising or even creating an open wound...at some point after telling him over and over again to stop...you eventually punch back and knock his ass down, correct?

Let me ask you, if 50 years ago a bunch of whacko 19th Century nationalists from Germany and Austria and Poland moved into your state and took it over claiming they once lived there 2000 years ago, and you've been fighting their takeover ever since, it's it wrong to keep trying to punch them?

Right on! And their claim of kinship to Middle Eastern Jews is quite tenuous. But Jews have always, since there have been Jews, lived in the Middle East, just not in a country called Israel. Perhaps Italy could provide reparations for having dismantled the original Jewish state way back when. It would have been more logical to carve out a bit of Germany after WW2 and to have created a land for the European Jews.

7   MisdemeanorRebel   2014 Jul 25, 12:29pm  

The Palestinians are finally starting to use real violence. Before they were happy to throw stones and have faith in international justice, telling themselves it was just the Cold War that stopped the world from seeing their plight. Now they are getting clever, getting Bibi to send in ground troops where they can be ambushed and attacked. Arabs like that kind of fighting anyway.

Most of the smart people in Israel eventually leave, Israeli citizenship is just a stepping stone to a real job and life in the EU or US or Canada.

The only danger is that Frum Right-wing whackos decide to take everyone out on the way out.

Israel is the last stupidity of a very stupid, Pollyannic, Romantic ideological century or two.

What have we seen so far, Italians trying to build the Roman Empire, Greeks trying to rebuild Byzantium by conquering Western Turkey (fortunately cooler heads prevailed and a population transfer was negotiated), a guy who thought he was the new Barbarossa, English people singing a song about how Jesus walked along the Thames (probably with raincoat and umbrella), and assorted other nonsense. One of these nonsenses was Jews recapturing Israel, a perennial bad idea that got lots of them killed and enslaved in the Middle Ages (Jews went on their own Crusades, none of them ended well). This time they unfortunately were successful and are now just like the Christians at Acre. It's only a matter of time, Smart Secular Jews don't reproduce, only Frum ones that are Creationists and don't do Science.

What's next, somebody gonna go "Full Ivanhoe" and try to expel the Normans from England?

8   Strategist   2014 Jul 25, 1:09pm  

dodgerfanjohn says

Lemme ask you, if some weak dude keeps punching you over and over again, perhaps eventually causing bruising or even creating an open wound...at some point after telling him over and over again to stop...you eventually punch back and knock his ass down, correct?

Correct. What else can you do?

9   Strategist   2014 Jul 25, 1:12pm  

thunderlips11 says

dodgerfanjohn says

Lemme ask you, if some weak dude keeps punching you over and over again, perhaps eventually causing bruising or even creating an open wound...at some point after telling him over and over again to stop...you eventually punch back and knock his ass down, correct?

Let me ask you, if 50 years ago a bunch of whacko 19th Century nationalists from Germany and Austria and Poland moved into your state and took it over claiming they once lived there 2000 years ago, and you've been fighting their takeover ever since, it's it wrong to keep trying to punch them?

Not unless you feel like committing suicide.
I'd rather live.

10   Strategist   2014 Jul 25, 1:14pm  

Blurtman says

Let me ask you, if 50 years ago a bunch of whacko 19th Century nationalists from Germany and Austria and Poland moved into your state and took it over claiming they once lived there 2000 years ago, and you've been fighting their takeover ever since, it's it wrong to keep trying to punch them?

Right on! And their claim of kinship to Middle Eastern Jews is quite tenuous. But Jews have always, since there have been Jews, lived in the Middle East, just not in a country called Israel. Perhaps Italy could provide reparations for having dismantled the original Jewish state way back when. It would have been more logical to carve out a bit of Germany after WW2 and to have created a land for the European Jews.

Christians have always lived in Europe and the Middle East. Should we vacate America?

11   Automan Empire   2014 Jul 25, 1:15pm  

I always think back to watching Schindler's List, and marvel at how JEWS of all people could have their own Warsaw Ghetto thing going on.

The conflict is hopelessly asymmetric, and so entrenched that every event is reactionary, to provocations and justifications long countered, commingled, and blurred. As the far stronger party, Israel doesn't seem willing to behave as the bigger entity. Stop building fucking settlements, offer up a worthwhile plan for co-existence without apartheid AND be willing to stick to it. A few other things, like killing 10 muslims for every jew for example.

It will take at least a generation for hardened attitudes to be superceded, and for children not to impulsively want to throw rocks and grow up to continue with rockets.

Maybe sit down with a meal of horseradish, charoset, and salt water, and really, really reflect on it all.

12   Strategist   2014 Jul 25, 1:21pm  

bgamall4 says

dodgerfanjohn says

Lemme ask you, if some weak dude keeps punching you over and over again, perhaps eventually causing bruising or even creating an open wound...at some point after telling him over and over again to stop...you eventually punch back and knock his ass down, correct?

But the first punches were thrown by the Israelis, who took the Palestinians off their land. So, the ensuing occupation of 1.8 million people in a nation not much bigger than San Francisco, with no high rises to speak of, is evil. This is an occupation and it is a racial occupation. The Zionists picked the wrong place to settle. They are a phony Zion anyway.

The land belonged to Israel.
Then it belonged to the Palestinians.
Now it belongs to Israel again.
Pretty simple.

13   MisdemeanorRebel   2014 Jul 25, 1:31pm  

Strategist says

The land belonged to Israel.

Then it belonged to the Palestinians.

Now it belongs to Israel again.

Pretty simple.

The land belonged to some hill tribes more than 1500 years or more BC, the last time it was independent for any length of time going by real history.
Sometime at least in the late Bronze Age, but before the collapse, various parts of Israel was part of Egypt or the Mittani or Hatusa. Some of the hilly region around Jerusalem had a few cow protection forts, maybe a few thousand sheep herders who occasionally enrolled in the armies of real Civilizations (think Scots Highlanders here).
During the Bronze Age Collapse, parts of Israel may have been independent and run by warlords like "king" (really "Petty Warband Leader" or "Raubritter") David, who may have ruled an area the size of downtown Oakland with his bandit friends. About this time the Philistines show up (Phil-hellenes? Lots of Greekish Pottery found in Philistine towns).
Then it belonged to the Egyptians for countless years.
Then it belonged to the Assyrians.
Then Judah was independent for all of 5 minutes during a Assyrian Civil War.
Then it was Babylonian, who replaced the Assyrian Emprie.
Then it was Persian.
Then it was Hellenized under Alexander and the Selucids. Maybe traded hands briefly with Ptolemic Egypt.
Then it was Roman.
Then it was Byzantine.
Then it was part of the Caliphate.
Then it was part of the Ottoman Empire.
Then it was a mandate of the British Empire.
Then, after a long terrorist campaign of bombing Arab and British offices, villages, and hotels by emigrant European Nationalist-Romantic Jews, Israel/Judah became truly independent for the first time in about 2600 years, or really about 3200 years if you discount the very brief independence Judah enjoyed under Josiah.

14   Strategist   2014 Jul 25, 2:30pm  

thunderlips11 says

Then it was Roman.

Then it was Byzantine.

Then it was part of the Caliphate.

Then it was part of the Ottoman Empire.

Then it was a mandate of the British Empire.

Then, after a long terrorist campaign of bombing Arab and British offices, villages, and hotels by emigrant European Nationalist-Romantic Jews, Israel/Judah became truly independent for the first time in about 2600 years, or really about 3200 years if you discount the very brief independence Judah enjoyed under Josiah.

I'm sure you are right. As a world federalist (someone who does not believe in man made political boundaries) it is very hard to support any one side based on today's political boundaries. I go by the threat to mankind and human rights abuse. Based on that, it is impossible to support fanatical Muslims.

15   Strategist   2014 Jul 25, 2:42pm  

bgamall4 says

Strategist says

. I go by the threat to mankind and human rights abuse. Based on that, it is impossible to support fanatical Muslims.

Wrong, the most dangerous people in the world are Zionist neocons. There are no other people with as much wealth, power and zeal for world domination all rolled into one. No one else is close.

You just hate them for whatever reason.
RACIST!

16   Strategist   2014 Jul 26, 1:45am  

bgamall4 says

Strategist says

The land belonged to Israel.

Then it belonged to the Palestinians.

Now it belongs to Israel again.

Pretty simple.

Back then, God gave the land to Israel. This time, atheistic men, the Zionists took it. Big difference. But most likely you won't understand this until you die.

So the land belongs to Israel, right?

17   Blurtman   2014 Jul 26, 1:55am  

A photographic history of the Palestinians, 1876-1948, by Walid Khalidi.

http://btd.palestine-studies.org/f-by-subject/27

18   marcus   2014 Jul 26, 3:25am  

A 2 state solution is the only answer, and any actions that aren't leading toward that are simply perpetuating this war. You could have another Palestinian state set up, and supported generously by other countires. Once it was functioning well, yes there would still be those that say "death to Isreal." But after a couple hundred years of a functioning Palestinian state, they would have to let it go. If not, terrorists maybe exist forever, but definitely as a lessor threat than now.

Follow your point of view to its end point. How do you get to peace ? Do you have to kill those 4 million Palestinians (who by the way are reproducing at a decent clip)?

19   MisdemeanorRebel   2014 Jul 26, 3:27am  

marcus says

Has Jordon offered to set up refuge camps for 4 million people ? Not that the people would go.

Here's the problem with the Trans-Jordan half-truth. The British needed a place for their friends, the Hashemite dynasty, recently driven out of Mecca and Medina by the House of Saud and their Wahabi Bedouin Fanatics.

The British created Jordan in 1922 to give their ally Hashemite Royalty a place to rule, and re-armed and equipped him. To help the Hashemites rule and stabilize the area, the land East of the Dan River was closed to Jewish Immigration, but that did not mean the area west of which was to be set up as an entirely a Jewish State run by Jews like Israeli Propaganda presents it. That area was still overwhelmingly Palestinian Arab in population, land ownership, etc.

Jordan DID give the Palestinians a place to live, but the Palestinians tried to overthrow the Hashemite British-installed Regime and replace it with an Arab Republic, so the Hashemite Monarchy of Jordan kicked them out in "Black September".

It's too bad the British didn't help the Hashemites retake Mecca and Medina. Then there would probably be no 9/11 and other acts of Sunni Wahabi terror from our "Allies" in the House of Saud.

20   Blurtman   2014 Jul 26, 3:28am  

1940's KLM advertisement: Fly to Palestine

22   John Bailo   2014 Jul 26, 3:31am  

How many neighboring states are opening themselves to refugees?

23   Blurtman   2014 Jul 26, 3:32am  

Prior to 1948, Jews living in what is now claimed to be Israel were Palestinians.

24   MisdemeanorRebel   2014 Jul 26, 3:46am  

These terrorists attacked police, bombed trains full of civilians, assassinated famous Swedish diplomat Folke Bernadotte, and even threated to kill Hugh Trevor-Roper, the famous Historian, because he wasn't tough enough on Germans in his book about Hitler. Their biggest deed was the slaughter of more than a hundred Arab farmers at a village called Deir Yassin.

They were the Hamas of their day, the Stern Gang or Lehi Group.

Today Israel reburied the terrorists who were taken to Britain, and awarded a ribbon in the 1980s for those who participated in the Stern Gang.

Keep this in mind when Bibi fulminates over an IDF soldier getting sniped, or a bus bombing. Jewish Terrorists in Palestine did the same exact shit.

The difference today is that instead of fertilizer bombs or dynamiting tracks, they have F-16s and 105mm Howitzers., and the Palestinians do not.

25   Blurtman   2014 Jul 26, 3:47am  

thunderlips11 says

These terrorists attacked police, bombed trains full of civilians, assassinated famous Swedish diplomat Folke Bernadotte, and even threated to kill Hugh Trevor-Roper, the famous Historian, because he wasn't tough enough on Germans in his book about Hitler.

They were the Hamas of their day, the Stern Gang or Lehi Group.

I sense a Woody Allen movie here.

26   Automan Empire   2014 Jul 26, 5:57am  

Expecting oppressed people to modify their behavior to avoid oppression, while not expecting oppressors to change their behavior, is itself oppressive.

27   Automan Empire   2014 Jul 26, 6:09am  

I didn't say Israel's only choice is to accept attacks without retaliation. I do see them as themselves provocative, along with being infinitely stronger economically and militarily. As I indicated earlier, results will probably take at least a generation to reach full effect; will more powerful Israel take the first steps in a sincere way?

28   Bigsby   2014 Jul 26, 6:20am  

On a day-to-day basis there is very obvious oppression going on. I may be one of the few people on here who has actually been to Israel and I have seen it first hand.

It's clearly a very complex situation made more so by the drawn out nature of the conflict and the kind of hostility that that develops. Any kind of meaningful agreement will take compromises on both sides and not just on the part of the Palestinians.

29   Y   2014 Jul 26, 7:28am  

Define "original inhabitants".
Unless you are talking Cro-Magnum, you don't have a foot to stand on.

Blurtman says

People who steal land from the original inhabitants

30   Y   2014 Jul 26, 7:31am  

This is a common mistake.
The first punch was thrown by the United Nations in 1948 when they recognized Israel as a state.
The hostilities initiated by the Palestinians after that were and still are illegal.

bgamall4 says

But the first punches were thrown by the Israelis,

31   Blurtman   2014 Jul 26, 8:40am  

SoftShell says

Define "original inhabitants".

Unless you are talking Cro-Magnum, you don't have a foot to stand on.

Blurtman says

People who steal land from the original inhabitants

My definition is the occupants of the country of Palestine which existed up until 1948. It's not really rocket science.

32   Howdy There   2014 Jul 26, 1:24pm  

Hadn't seen this thread before. After reading it, seems like one side has to wipe the other out if a resolution is to be had. It's not right.

33   Strategist   2014 Jul 26, 3:51pm  

tovarichpeter says

For the third time in five years, the worlds fourth largest military power has launched a full-scale armed onslaught on one of its most deprived and overcrowded territories. Since Israels bombardment of the Gaza Strip began, just over a week ago, more than 200 Palestinians have been killed.

How does country with 8 million people end up with the world's fourth largest military?

34   Bigsby   2014 Jul 26, 4:14pm  

Palestine is the common reference for the land up to the Jordan river and has been for a very long time, so why think the borders of a British protectorate somehow supersedes that in relevance?

35   Tenpoundbass   2014 Jul 27, 12:35am  

I never even saw or knew a Jew until I moved to South Florida in the late 80's.
But ever since then I have met a few hardcore characters who thought all Palestinians should be fought, drove out of Israel or killed. Probably the only people in America who could say something so viciously callous, and not be called out on it.

Had ANYONE in America said they would like to see Jews dead, he would probably still be in prison today for hate crime.

From my POV there was a pseudo peace process that was happening in early 2000s IIRC it was radical Jews that killed a Palestinian first, then some Palestinian killed a Jew, which led to that father and son being mowed down in the streets in a hail of Israeli soldier bullets on Easter morning.

There will never be peace in the middle east as long as Jews get to operate on sanctioned bigotry.

36   Strategist   2014 Jul 27, 2:03am  

tovarichpeter says

Occupied people have a right to exist

Occupied people should also have a right to EXIT if they want to exist. The other Arab nations have lots of land and wealth to easily accomodate them, but choose not to do so, as their hate for Jews is so much, they do not want Israel to EXIST.

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