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A rising tide only lifts rich people's yachts

By tovarichpeter follow tovarichpeter   2014 Oct 4, 3:15am 22,978 views   94 comments   watch   nsfw   quote   share    


http://www.salon.com/2014/10/04/income_inequalitys_sick_joke_a_rising_tide_only_lifts_luxury_yachts/

For a long time, the right has argued that we shouldnt worry about inequality because the true concern is the reduction of poverty. Conservatives also maintained that higher levels of inequality were unimportant because a rising tide would lift all boats, and high levels of inequality propelled the economy forward.

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55   NoCoupForYou   ignore (4)   2014 Oct 5, 11:44am     ↓ dislike (2)   quote   flag        

indigenous says

Yeah yeah taken out of context

No taken out of context - Hayek was warmly supportive of the Pinochet regime and regularly visited AND defended it in the press. Hayek has said over and over again he preferred Dictators that implement his preferred Economic Solutions to Democracies that restrict them.
http://coreyrobin.com/2012/07/08/hayek-von-pinochet/
http://coreyrobin.files.wordpress.com/2012/07/hayekchile.pdf

Von Mises WORKED for, and SUPPORTED, the Austrofascist Government in Vienna under Englebert Dollfuss as an economic advisor. He left for a teaching position in Switzerland years before the Nazis annexed Austria.

Both Hayek and von Mises loathed any form of Economic Relief that helped the lower classes, and were willing to cooperate with anyone who shared their ideal. In particular, Hayek believed that once a country had too much "Democracy" it would have to be stamped out by a "Cromwell" type figure - a dictator.

56   Strategist   ignore (2)   2014 Oct 5, 11:49am     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

thunderlips11 says

Strategist says

LOL thunderlips, you know why that picture is in black and white?

You do realize Rothbard lived during that time, right? Obviously the pic is joking by some parents - the difference is Rothbard wasn't joking.

I understand. But I have never heard of Rothbard.

57   NoCoupForYou   ignore (4)   2014 Oct 5, 11:50am     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Strategist says

I understand. But I have never heard of Rothbard.

You're not missing anything.

Basically, the guy called for massive hyperinflation since at least 1980. Obviously that was a bonk. His supporters say it's always "Just around the corner", however.

58   Strategist   ignore (2)   2014 Oct 5, 11:55am     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

thunderlips11 says

Strategist says

I understand. But I have never heard of Rothbard.

You're not missing anything.

Basically, the guy called for massive hyperinflation since at least 1980. Obviously that was a bonk. His supporters say it's always "Just around the corner", however.

Well, 1979 was the second oil crisis, and people believing in hyperinflation at that time were dime a dozen. Reagan and Volcker put that belief to an end.

59   NoCoupForYou   ignore (4)   2014 Oct 5, 12:02pm     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Strategist says

Well, 1979 was the second oil crisis, and people believing in hyperinflation at that time were dime a dozen. Reagan and Volcker put that belief to an end.

Except Rothbard insisted upon it till the day he died, sometime in the 90s.

60   indigenous   ignore (0)   2014 Oct 5, 12:04pm     ↓ dislike (1)   quote   flag        

thunderlips11 says

No taken out of context - Hayek was warmly supportive of the Pinochet regime and regularly visited AND defended it in the press. Hayek has said over and over again he preferred Dictators that implement his preferred Economic Solutions to Democracies that restrict them.

Pinochet is the first picture? Pinochet was also friendly with Friedman. As he knew something that very few politicians knew, which was that he knew nothing about economics, he therefore sought council from Friedman.

Regarding the dictatorship comment it is true exactly as he say a dictator gets things done a committee does not. I think a benign dictator is the best form of government but where do you find such angels? usually they turn into Hitler or Stalin.

thunderlips11 says

Von Mises WORKED for, and SUPPORTED, the Austrofascist Government in Vienna under Englebert Dollfuss as an economic advisor. He left for a teaching position in Switzerland years before the Nazis annexed Austria.

My understanding is that Mises had to leave because of persecution from Hitler and not a supporter at all, he was in his late 50s when this occurred.

thunderlips11 says

Both Hayek and von Mises loathed any form of Economic Relief that helped the lower classes, and were willing to cooperate with anyone who shared their ideal. In particular, Hayek believed that once a country had too much "Democracy" it would have to be stamped out by a "Cromwell" type figure - a dictator.

Yup and he would say the same about the US today. In fact I would say that when you have 10 million people being paid to be gimps, and endless welfare programs, not the least of which is corporate welfare, it will surely be the end of this country.

61   NoCoupForYou   ignore (4)   2014 Oct 5, 12:07pm     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

indigenous says

My understanding is that Mises had to leave because of persecution from Hitler and not a supporter at all, he was in his late 50s when this occurred.

He left in 1934. Hitler would only just come into power that Summer. He wouldn't annex anything until 1936.

indigenous says

Yup and he would say the same about the US today. In fact I would say that when you have 10 million people being paid to be gimps, and endless welfare programs, not the least of which is corporate welfare, it will surely be the end of this country.

It ain't the end of Sweden and Germany, and they have far more generous social programs (and far fewer natural resources) than the USA. Plus export surpluses, instead of nearly a trillion in trade deficits.

62   indigenous   ignore (0)   2014 Oct 5, 12:14pm     ↓ dislike (2)   quote   flag        

thunderlips11 says

Basically, the guy called for massive hyperinflation since at least 1980. Obviously that was a bonk. His supporters say it's always "Just around the corner", however.

Yup he missed that, however by definition inflation is caused by an increase in the money supply, which most certainly has been going on since 1971. There have many deflationary pressure as well otherwise Japan for instance would have hyperinflation by now. Austrian are the gold standard for determining the dynamics of the economy. But not so much on the when part. But anybody who is not at least a little agnostic about the when part is full of shit.

63   mell   ignore (4)   2014 Oct 5, 12:15pm     ↓ dislike (1)   quote   flag        

thunderlips11 says

It ain't the end of Sweden and Germany, and they have far more generous social programs (and far fewer natural resources) than the USA. Plus export surpluses, instead of nearly a trillion in trade deficits.

This needs to be differentiated. Sweden in fact had problems and tried various privatization, some more some less successful. Germany has a much better return of services for everybody (rich to poor) and doesn't differ much anymore from US social/welfare services except for the fact that they have no bailout programs for defaulters (on homes etc.) and no printing press when the market goes down. And the last two items are very expensive social/welfare services (for the rich and the deadbeat housing debtoholics) in the US that the taxpayer is footing via stagflation and a widening wealth gap.

64   indigenous   ignore (0)   2014 Oct 5, 12:19pm     ↓ dislike (1)   quote   flag        

thunderlips11 says

He left in 1934. Hitler would only just come into power that Summer. He wouldn't annex anything until 1936

IIRC he had to leave in haste (leaving a vast amount of writings behind) and was being persecuted, nobody leaves their home country when they are in their late 50s, unless they have to.

thunderlips11 says

It ain't the end of Sweden and Germany, and they have far more generous social programs (and far fewer natural resources) than the USA. Plus export surpluses, instead of nearly a trillion in trade deficits.

Yup the socialist chant, Sweden is borrowing from the future to pay for now just as the US has been doing. Their decedents will pay the price. I could explain further but you won't listen/read the link anyway.

65   mell   ignore (4)   2014 Oct 5, 12:21pm     ↓ dislike (2)   quote   flag        

Also Germany has no "guaranteed" ponzi pension appreciation, they are carefully adjusted each year and have to be approved.

66   Vicente   ignore (0)   2014 Oct 5, 12:22pm     ↓ dislike (1)   quote   flag        

Strategist says

Don't forget, we would have more unemployment than lets say Bangladesh, if technology cost us jobs.

I was explicit about looking towards the endgame, not the bubble.

In 1999 everyone and their cab driver bought WebVan stocks.

In 2005 everyone thought you were a FOOL if you didn't buy a house right that second before you were priced out forever.

If you live in the bubble, it can be hard to see outside it.

The current state of American capitalism, will only last until the rest of the world has all our technological capabilities thanks to our rabid outsourcing & offshoring advocates.

Once that shit's gone, we'll have the unemployment rate of Afghanistan, with the wages of Tajikistan.

67   jazz_music   ignore (14)   2014 Oct 5, 2:11pm     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Vicente says

In 2005 everyone thought you were a FOOL if you didn't buy a house right that second before you were priced out forever.

If you live in the bubble, it can be hard to see outside it.

GASP!!!

Dude!

Rock-solid example!

68   Strategist   ignore (2)   2014 Oct 5, 2:16pm     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

jazz music says

Vicente says

In 2005 everyone thought you were a FOOL if you didn't buy a house right that second before you were priced out forever.

If you live in the bubble, it can be hard to see outside it.

GASP!!!

Dude!

Rock-solid example!

You are so funny Jazz, How can a bubble be rock solid?

69   Vicente   ignore (0)   2014 Oct 5, 2:41pm     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Strategist says

You are so funny Jazz, How can a bubble be rock solid?

The point I was trying to make, is Americans are so goddamn arrogant we will technology our way out of any goddamn thing. The assumption that technology is a never-ending road to prosperity is a base assumption that may never be questioned. That we can cut any corner and fold, spindle, and mutilate our society and abuse our people any way we want as long as we all have smartphones and microwave ovens and Ikea furniture.

So far it's worked for us often enough, so when it no longer works people will be REALLY SURPRISED and disappointed and keep trying it over and over and over until there's only a bloodstain where the horse lay.

Living inside the bubble where your rules work for you, you never question it. Anyone who does question it, is automatically wrong and a moron to boot.

70   Strategist   ignore (2)   2014 Oct 5, 2:51pm     ↓ dislike (1)   quote   flag        

Vicente says

The assumption that technology is a never-ending road to prosperity is a base assumption that may never be questioned.

That assumption is absolutely correct. Ever since they invented the wheel our standard of living has gone up with each invention. Every single day we make more discoveries, more inventions, and more innovation. The limit to how far we can progress is literally infinity.

71   Strategist   ignore (2)   2014 Oct 5, 2:57pm     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Strategist says

Vicente says

The assumption that technology is a never-ending road to prosperity is a base assumption that may never be questioned.

That assumption is absolutely correct. Ever since they invented the wheel our standard of living has gone up with each invention. Every single day we make more discoveries, more inventions, and more innovation. The limit to how far we can progress is literally infinity.

In the 1930's Hoover said........Everything that can be invented, has been invented.
If he comes back to life, he's in for one helluva shock.

72   Vicente   ignore (0)   2014 Oct 5, 3:06pm     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Strategist says

That assumption is absolutely correct. Ever since they invented the wheel our standard of living has gone up with each invention. Every single day we make more discoveries, more inventions, and more innovation. The limit to how far we can progress is literally infinity.

"Innovating" a new method to monetize facebook is just technology masturbation. If you asked most people the great inventions, they would generally name shit that was invented before they were born. Ask them to name something important from last year.

73   marcus   ignore (11)   2014 Oct 5, 3:10pm     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

thunderlips11 says

Strategist says

Well, 1979 was the second oil crisis, and people believing in hyperinflation at that time were dime a dozen. Reagan and Volcker put that belief to an end.

I get a kick out of that. Volcker was appointed by Carter. And somehow since Reagan was President, when Volkers Federal Reserve finished their run up in inter rates killing off inflation,...Reagan gets credit for helping end inflation, and also for the boom in the economy that occurred when interest rates were allowed to come back down again.

Way to go Reagan !!

74   Philistine   ignore (0)   2014 Oct 5, 5:43pm     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Strategist says

Do you know why schools have long summer breaks? So the children could go work on the farms during harvest time

Actually not true. Families in cities left town for summer vacations to get away from the heat. Schools closed during summer to accommodate this. The people that were on "farm schedules" took shorter breaks during spring and fall, not summer. If children were going to be out of school for the harvest, they would actually be getting September to October off, not the summer.

During the end of the 19th century, regionalized breaks were standardized and the city schedule of summers off prevailed over the farm schedule of short spring/fall breaks. So what we have today is actually the opposite.

http://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/summer-vacation-actually-about-city-kids-not-farm-kids-180952654/?no-ist

http://blogs.edweek.org/edweek/sarameads_policy_notebook/2010/07/can_we_please_put_the_agrarian_roots_of_summer_vacation_myth_to_bed.html

75   Vicente   ignore (0)   2014 Oct 5, 5:56pm     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Philistine says

Actually not true.

Hush your mouth!

I live in farm country, I let this one pass by because it's the least of the things he's pulled out of a bucket of "everybody knows".

But go ahead maybe you can get him to say

"I was wro...."

Then a rift in space-time will open.

76   Reality   ignore (5)   2014 Oct 6, 1:10am     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

thunderlips11 says

In particular, Hayek believed that once a country had too much "Democracy" it would have to be stamped out by a "Cromwell" type figure - a dictator.

That simple historical fact should be obvious to any decent student of history, since at least the time of Polybius, who wrote the book "The Histories" in the 2nd century BC. Even before him, the concept of "Kyklos" was well recognized and pontificated upon by many, including Plato and Aristotle.

77   mell   ignore (4)   2014 Oct 6, 1:22am     ↓ dislike (1)   quote   flag        

jazz music says

Vicente says

In 2005 everyone thought you were a FOOL if you didn't buy a house right that second before you were priced out forever.

If you live in the bubble, it can be hard to see outside it.

GASP!!!

Dude!

Rock-solid example!

it's not that hard, just need to let the following pullback play out instead of backstopping it. In fact one of my condo neighbors laughed at the hype and sold her condo in 2006. All that she needed was fiscal responsibility and common sense to see right through it. Don't make me post the Schiff videos of 2007 again..

78   NoCoupForYou   ignore (4)   2014 Oct 6, 1:56am     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

mell says

Sweden in fact had problems and tried various privatization, some more some less successful.

They just voted back in a center-left government after many years, following a slew of "Privatization" scandals, like kids in a privatized school being fed only crackers and water for lunch, "Flexible" Workforce "reforms" where the young can only find temporary employment, etc..

The center-right got hammered, but the radical right getting the third highest vote total - but that's Multi Cult backlash more than economics. The great news is that the Feminist Party didn't get enough to qualify for any seats (yes, there is no end to Feminazi Hysteria, the Feminist Party is ultra-fanatic thinks Sweden is a foul lair of Oppressive Patriarchy, all sex is rape, etc.).

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/sweden-election-left-leaning-opposition-wins-far-right-makes-gains-1.2765887

79   indigenous   ignore (0)   2014 Oct 6, 1:59am     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Reality says

That simple historical fact should be obvious to any decent student of history, since at least the time of Polybius, who wrote the book "The Histories" in the 2nd century BC. Even before him, the concept of "Kyklos" was well recognized and pontificated upon by many, including Plato and Aristotle.

Interesting:

"Most important to Aristotle in preserving a constitution is education: if all the citizens are aware of law, history, and the constitution they will endeavour to maintain a good government."

(We are toast)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kyklos

80   indigenous   ignore (0)   2014 Oct 6, 2:01am     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

thunderlips11 says

They just voted back in a center-left government after many years, following a slew of "Privatization" scandals, like kids in a privatized school being fed only crackers and water for lunch, "Flexible" Workforce "reforms" where the young can only find temporary employment, etc..

You cannot vote/legislate your way to prosperity...

81   NoCoupForYou   ignore (4)   2014 Oct 6, 2:02am     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

indigenous says

Yup the socialist chant, Sweden is borrowing from the future to pay for now just as the US has been doing. Their decedents will pay the price. I could explain further but you won't listen/read the link anyway.

82   NoCoupForYou   ignore (4)   2014 Oct 6, 2:13am     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

indigenous says

You cannot vote/legislate your way to prosperity...

Prove it. If that was so, Somalia would be a paradise and Scandinavia would be like Somalia.

83   indigenous   ignore (0)   2014 Oct 6, 2:16am     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

I question the numbers, what counts as debt with the US?

Norway gets a lot of it's budget from oil

Sweden was very much free market in the recent past which allows them to coast on yesterdays steam.

84   Peter P   ignore (0)   2014 Oct 6, 2:18am     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

National debt is an issue only if you cannot defend yourself.

85   indigenous   ignore (0)   2014 Oct 6, 2:20am     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

thunderlips11 says

Prove it. If that was so, Somalia would be a paradise and Scandinavia would be like Somalia.

It is tantamount to the minimum wage law, which will not create more wealth for the lower quintile.

Somalia continually improves through there Xeer law, which is the opposite of statutory law.

Meanwhile the countries that continually force regulations will move closer and closer to anarchy, because of there unsustainability.

86   NoCoupForYou   ignore (4)   2014 Oct 6, 2:24am     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Peter P says

National debt is an issue only if you cannot defend yourself.

... and if potential rivals aren't also the biggest lenders. Just dump the bonds all at once in the secondary market and you may not have to fire a shot.

87   Entitlemented   ignore (0)   2014 Oct 6, 2:41am     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

thunderlips11 says

No taken out of context - Hayek was warmly supportive of the Pinochet regime and regularly visited AND defended it in the press. Hayek has said over and over again he preferred Dictators that implement his preferred Economic Solutions to Democracies that restrict them.

http://coreyrobin.com/2012/07/08/hayek-von-pinochet/

http://coreyrobin.files.wordpress.com/2012/07/hayekchile.pdf

We are now quoting socialists on Pat.net: https://www.jacobinmag.com/about/

88   NoCoupForYou   ignore (4)   2014 Oct 6, 3:37am     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Entitlemented says

We are now quoting socialists on Pat.net: https://www.jacobinmag.com/about/

Dodge, messenger, dodge - you are being shot at!

Those links all have references to Hayek's own quotes. Just because a socialist collected his quotes from newspapers and media, doesn't mean he didn't make 'em.

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