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Freedom to Offend

By Patrick follow Patrick   2015 Feb 9, 7:43am 529,140 views   554 comments   watch   nsfw   quote   share    


Patrick.net is an anonymous forum where the fundamental human right to offend is protected. Freedom of speech is exactly and nothing other than the freedom to offend. Speech which offends no one needs no protection because it will not be censored. Controversial ideas are inevitably offensive to someone and therefore need protection from censorship.

As MisterLearnToCode says:
We can't ban offensive speech because then we'd be at the mercy of the most easily offended; the lowest common denominator, and wouldn't be able to discuss jack shit.


The least popular ideas are the censor's wedge.

I especially want people to have a place to say things they cannot say in person because of family or work or school pressure to conform to the politically correct opinions in their area.

The goal is for patrick.net to be a place where anyone can amicably discuss anything with others, anonymously, without being subject to the PC police who have effectively eliminated free speech in the United States and many other countries. Deliberate offense is contrary to this goal. Please don't deliberately insult anyone. It may make you feel evil-good for a moment, but it is counterproductive.

If you are expressing a sincerely held point of view with good will, your comments and posts are very welcome here. If your point of view is "offensive" to others, that is no problem. Enjoy your freedom on this site, but please try to keep it about ideas and not about the other users or the site itself. I love Texas Congressman Dan Crenshaw's philosophy about political debate:

https://patrick.net/post/1326765/2019-08-23-perfect-description-of-how-public-debate-should-be

There are many ideas that we will never agree on. The left and the right have different ways of approaching governance, based on contrasting philosophies. But many of the ultimate goals — economic prosperity, better health care and education, etc. — are the same. We just don’t share the same vision of how to achieve them.

How, then, do we live together in this world of differing ideas? For starters, let’s agree that the ideas are fair game. If you think my idea is awful, you should say as much. But there is a difference between attacking an idea and attacking the person behind that idea. Labeling someone as an “-ist” who believes in an “-ism” because of the person’s policy preference is just a shortcut to playground-style name-calling, cloaked in political terminology. It’s also generally a good indication that the attacker doesn’t have a solid argument and needs a way to end debate before it has even begun.

Similarly, people too often attack not just an idea but also the supposed intent behind an idea. That raises the emotional level of the debate and might seem like it strengthens the attacker’s side, but it’s a terrible way to make a point. Assuming the worst about your opponents’ intentions has the effect of demonizing their ideas, removing the need for sound counter-reasoning and fact-based argument. That’s not a good environment for the exchange of ideas.


The primary moderation rule is to not attack other users or the site itself. Personal attacks solve nothing, and in fact get us further away from solving anything. Examine what is said, not who speaks, and try to acknowledge whatever truth there is in what the other person is saying before attacking the flaws in their argument.

If you don't like this site, go somewhere else. This site cost you nothing, was a lot of work for me, and doesn't even have advertising. If you can't resist insulting the other users or the site itself over and over, you'll be banned and your comments deleted.

To repeat, here are the rules:

1. Do not insult the other users.
2. Do not insult the site.

Flag personal attacks and attacks on the site with the "flag" link by each comment so that they will go into moderation where they will be reviewed by a moderator. Please do not flag comments just because you don't like them.

If you're wondering why your comment was flagged, please click the "edit" link on it. It should be pretty obvious when you read your own words again. If you think there was a mistake about the content's being flagged, please write p@patrick.net

If you don't have the "flag" link, please report personal comments to p@patrick.net by email.


Here are the original articles that made this site famous:

https://patrick.net/post/1282720/2015-07-11-ten-reasons-it-s-a-terrible-time-to-buy-an-expensive-house
https://patrick.net/post/1282721/2015-07-11-eight-groups-who-lie-about-the-housing-market
https://patrick.net/post/1282722/2015-07-11-37-bogus-arguments-about-housing

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410   Patrick   ignore (1)   2019 Mar 3, 5:50pm     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag      

Tarantula says
I'm not clear what this content on housing has to do with the freedom to be offensive? If the economics of housing is what put the site on the map, how did it evolve to a site focused on the freedom to be offensive?


I honestly believe that the rapidly growing suppression of free speech is a far greater problem than the cost of housing. The housing problem will solve itself eventually. The lack of free speech can lock us all into tyranny forever.
411   Patrick   ignore (1)   2019 Mar 3, 6:02pm     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag      

MisterLearnToCode says
Islamist Croutons


Lol, exactly. Everything else is pretty easy to eat, but those croutons really don't belong in the salad at all. Kinda like putting bits of wood or rocks in your salad.
412   HeadSet   ignore (3)   2019 Mar 3, 7:22pm     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag      

but those croutons really don't belong in the salad at all. Kinda like putting bits of wood or rocks in your salad.

Yep, and those who do eat the croutons annoy every one else when their loud chewing sounds like a rock crusher.
413   rd6B   ignore (1)   2019 Mar 3, 7:23pm     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag      

HeadSet says
loud chewing sounds like a rock crusher.

one could even say that their teeth explode
414   ForcedTQ   ignore (0)   2019 Mar 3, 9:08pm     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag      

Tarantula says
Patrick says
the rapidly growing suppression of free speech


I couldn't disagree more strongly. Free speech is more proliferate at this moment than ever before in the history of mankind.

I think perhaps you are confusing free speech with lack of consequences. People can, and should be, held accountable for the consequences of their words.

In fact, I would go as far as to say that free speech without consequence is tyranny.


So you would believe that someone should be able to say something, and if someone else doesn't like it/agree with it/know it to be fact/etc. there should be consequences for the person that said it? Is not that Tyranny?
415   Patrick   ignore (1)   2019 Mar 3, 9:16pm     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag      

Tarantula says
I couldn't disagree more strongly. Free speech is more proliferate at this moment than ever before in the history of mankind.

I think perhaps you are confusing free speech with lack of consequences. People can, and should be, held accountable for the consequences of their words.


I'm talking about cases like James Damore at Google, who got fired for perfectly reasonable comments about why there are more male than female engineers.

Hint: it's not sexism.

Or how Larry Summers got fired from Harvard.
416   rd6B   ignore (1)   2019 Mar 4, 5:18am     ↓ dislike (1)   quote   flag      

https://spectator.us/free-speech-threat/

Calm down! Your freedom of speech is not under threat
Anyone who has almost every aspect of their online life taken away from them is not ‘silenced’
Godfrey Elfwick

As usual, the tinfoil hat-wearing alt-right Nazis are crying out that free speech is under threat. This ridiculous overreaction always makes me laugh. These people have no idea what free speech is. They assume that freedom of speech means you are free to say whatever you want without severe consequences! Imagine that?! What kind of fascistic society would allow unfettered, non-regulated speech?

The companies listed above are all private companies. They are entitled to ban whomever they wish if they feel that their views or behavior are unpleasant. In fact, I would like to see this approach taken a step further. I cannot wait for the day utility companies start banning people from having access to vital services such as electricity, gas and running water. Nextra, Enel and Duke Energy are all perfectly within their rights to deny power to the homes of people whose views they deem problematic.

When it comes to the latest social media bans, I’ve seen cries of ‘Urr, they are trying to silence us!’ What utter rot! Anyone who has almost every aspect of their online life taken away from them is not ‘silenced’. They are still perfectly free to send letters and postcards to people (for now). There is absolutely nothing stopping them from using CB radio, or sending a telegraph. Nothing prevents them from tapping out messages in Morse code to their followers on an intricate system of underground pipes they could easily have built if they obtain the appropriate planning permission. With a little creativity, Alex Jones could communicate his vile thoughts via the medium of interpretive dance on any street corner he chooses. Tommy Robinson could scribble his racist views on scraps of paper, fold them up, insert them into bottles (not plastic) and hurl them into the sea for his fellow Islamophobes to discover while walking their pitbull terriers on the beach.
417   FortWayneIndiana   ignore (2)   2019 Mar 4, 6:53am     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag      

Then go there and do left wing activist there. You’ll get banned in 5 seconds...

You don’t appreciate the fact that you are still posting here. Ungreatful and so entitled.

Tarantula says
In fact, there seems to be no shortage of websites that proffer the most unpalatable "politically incorrect" content imaginable:

White aryan resistance: https://www.resist.com/
Jew Watch: http://www.jewwatch.com/
Holocaust Deniers: https://codoh.com/

There is an infinitude of "offensive" material on the Internet, without even considering all the wierd porn. I don't really see how it needs protecting
418   FortWayneIndiana   ignore (2)   2019 Mar 4, 6:57am     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag      

In CA most things said on this forum will get you fired for life. CA doesn’t support freedom of speech. But it supports freedom of speech that left wants... such as gender selection, having gays refer to you as cis gendered, etc...

CA liberals live on one way street pushing society into tyranny.
419   NoCoupForYou   ignore (4)   2019 Mar 13, 10:46am     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag      

We gotta lot of old sockpuppet accounts resurfacing today.
420   Shaman   ignore (2)   2019 Mar 13, 10:52am     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag      

Tarantula says
There is an infinitude of "offensive" material on the Internet, without even considering all the wierd porn. I don't really see how it needs protecting


Let’s start by banning anyone who talks like a Leftist. See how it works? Thought not. For a dude who is supposed to be educated, you aren’t displaying any wisdom.
421   NoCoupForYou   ignore (4)   2019 Mar 13, 11:07am     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag      

Elgatouno says
police your own this is why a one sided moderation policy is fucking stupid


Point me to another current user bringing up a sockpuppet in the recent past that you're complaining about, thanks.
424   NoCoupForYou   ignore (4)   2019 Mar 15, 11:25pm     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag      

MAGA_BOMBER says
offending is no great accomplishment, Offensive speech isolates people and undermines relationships permanently because all relationships are based on respect.


Respect is to be earned, not given away.

We can't ban offensive speech because then we'd be at the mercy of the most easily offended; the lowest common denominator, and wouldn't be able to discuss jack shit.

Some people are triggered by somebody saying "The Earth is a fucking oblate spheroid, not fucking flat."
425   NoCoupForYou   ignore (4)   2019 Mar 15, 11:35pm     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag      

MAGA_BOMBER says
Try talking that way to someone related to your employment.

BOOM

You have no worry about that particular problem?

BOOM



So what are you saying, in a democracy everybody should only talk like their boss is around?

Is that the ACLU's new stance on Free Speech: you can only talk as if you're at work on the boss' time and dime?

Sounds scary.
426   Patrick   ignore (1)   2019 Mar 15, 11:50pm     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag      

MisterLearnToCode says
We can't ban offensive speech because then we'd be at the mercy of the most easily offended; the lowest common denominator, and wouldn't be able to discuss jack shit.


Yes, exactly!
427   FortWayneIndiana   ignore (2)   2019 Mar 16, 8:20am     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag      

MAGA_BOMBER says
offending is no great accomplishment, Offensive speech isolates people and undermines relationships permanently because all relationships are based on respect.


No one expects everything we say to be an accomplishment. Anything and everything is offensive, restricting speech based on how it offends someone is tyranny.
428   NoCoupForYou   ignore (4)   2019 Mar 16, 11:03am     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag      

Right, so if you say "Men and Women are fundamentally different." or "Humans have only has two sexes", there are a substantial number of people who claim that is Hate Speech.

This is why studies that showed that there were differences between boys and girls during gestation in the womb when culture cannot be a factor, they had to put in all kinds of soothing words and caveats and "please don't hit me" type language when they released it.
429   Patrick   ignore (1)   2019 Mar 16, 11:08am     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag      

Yes, and even worse than that, actual scientific research has been excised from journals because some found objective facts to be offensive.

For example, the research paper showing greater male variability across most species.

https://quillette.com/2018/09/07/academic-activists-send-a-published-paper-down-the-memory-hole/

First, the National Science Foundation wrote to Sergei requesting that acknowledgment of NSF funding be removed from our paper with immediate effect. I was astonished. I had never before heard of the NSF requesting removal of acknowledgement of funding for any reason. On the contrary, they are usually delighted to have public recognition of their support for science. ...

ut, that same day, the Mathematical Intelligencer’s editor-in-chief Marjorie Senechal notified us that, with “deep regret,” she was rescinding her previous acceptance of our paper. “Several colleagues,” she wrote, had warned her that publication would provoke “extremely strong reactions” and there existed a “very real possibility that the right-wing media may pick this up and hype it internationally.” For the second time in a single day I was left flabbergasted. Working mathematicians are usually thrilled if even five people in the world read our latest article. Now some progressive faction was worried that a fairly straightforward logical argument about male variability might encourage the conservative press to actually read and cite a science paper?
430   ad   ignore (0)   2019 Mar 16, 11:24am     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag      

MisterLearnToCode says
This is why studies that showed that there were differences between boys and girls during gestation in the womb when culture cannot be a factor, they had to put in all kinds of soothing words and caveats and "please don't hit me" type language when they released it.


431   rocketjoe79   ignore (2)   2019 Mar 19, 11:01pm     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag      

It's the same regarding IQ testing. I keep reminding people that 49% are below average, but no one believes me....
434   Goran_K   ignore (3)   2019 Apr 11, 8:30am     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag      

@Patrick, is there a way to submit entire threads into the queue? Right now, HEYYOU is on a spamming rage, perhaps there should be a way to prevent someone like him from just spamming threads?
435   Patrick   ignore (1)   2019 Apr 11, 10:22am     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag      

Yes, the only rule is no personal comments. Discuss ideas, not the other users.

OK, I do have a few other rules like not insulting the site itself (just leave if you don't like it), not posting commercial spam, and not breaking any laws.
436   APOCALYPSEFUCKisShostakovitch   ignore (52)   2019 Apr 11, 1:46pm     ↓ dislike (1)   quote   flag      

Why can't everyone describe on every available surface in exacting detail Putin's twisted sodomy of Trump's asshole, mouth and fat folds?
437   FortWayneIndiana   ignore (2)   2019 Apr 11, 3:32pm     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag      

Elgatouno says


Please keep your fantasies and fetishes out of this Elgatouno
438   Patrick   ignore (1)   2019 Apr 11, 5:44pm     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag      

HEYYOU says
Bet I couldn't say this on any other site,maybe once before being banned.


I'll take that as a compliment.
440   Patrick   ignore (1)   2019 Apr 11, 6:07pm     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag      

How can anyone still believe the Russia bullshit after it was so thoroughly discredited after more than two years of the most fanatical and partisan investigation in history?

It's just hate. And that's sad. Hate is suffering for the hater.

Give up hate, live happily.
441   Patrick   ignore (1)   2019 Apr 11, 6:11pm     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag      

Goran_K says
perhaps there should be a way to prevent someone like him from just spamming threads?


I was in fact thinking of limiting people to two or three comments in a thread in a row.

I don't want anyone to be able to drown out anyone else through excessive commenting.
442   rd6B   ignore (1)   2019 Apr 11, 6:24pm     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag      

Patrick says
How can anyone still believe the Russia bullshit after it was so thoroughly discredited after more than two years of the most fanatical and partisan investigation in history?

Because they suffer from clinical TDS where FACTS! do not matter. It does not matter also that Russian puppet Trump killed 200-300 Russians in Syria, which is the largest number of Russian troops killed by Americans in one engagement ever, and it does not matter that Obama never challenged Russians in Syria.

And the sad part is that one can find a lot of stuff to criticize Trump, but it is easier not to think so lets trot out things that are false.
443   Patrick   ignore (1)   2019 Apr 11, 9:28pm     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag      

I wonder how much the media is to blame for the epidemic of TDS.

Their continuous spin and lies about Trump certainly seem to be a major factor in spreading this disease. They hyped the Russia lie for nearly 2 and a half years, and it was entirely bullshit.
444   rd6B   ignore (1)   2019 Apr 12, 8:29am     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag      

Patrick says
Their continuous spin and lies about Trump certainly seem to be a major factor in spreading this disease. They hyped the Russia lie for nearly 2 and a half years, and it was entirely bullshit.

And it is counterproductive even from the point of TDS sufferers (other than them being able to achieve mental orgasms from bashing t-RUMP). Trump has a lot to be criticized about but they focus on emotionally satisfying issues that are either false or immaterial, thus destroying their and MSM already nonexistent credibility.
I blame our education system, where FACTS ARE VIOLENCE AND LOGIC IS WHITE HETERO-PATRIARCHAL OPPRESSION.
445   Patrick   ignore (1)   2019 Apr 12, 8:40am     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag      

achieve mental orgasms from bashing t-RUMP


Lol, that is the perfect way to put it.
446   TrumpingTits   ignore (3)   2019 Apr 17, 8:46pm     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag      

Elgatouno says
Spamming rage, maybe we can stay away from the personal comments?

Perhaps you could learn some basic reading comprehension skills so you can tell the difference between simply describing an action someone is doing vs a 'personal comment'?

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