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Civil Debate

By Patrick follow Patrick   2015 Feb 9, 7:43am 533,830 views   541 comments   watch   nsfw   quote   share    


Patrick.net is an anonymous forum where ideas censored in the mainstream press are available for discussion by all in a civil manner.

The question for any comment will be: "Is there good will in this comment?" A little teasing is OK, but outright hate for "the other side" is not. If it's just hate, please don't post it. Post something constructive instead. Something that unifies us rather than divides us even more.

Freedom of speech is nothing other than the freedom to offend. Speech which offends no one needs no protection because it will not be censored. Controversial ideas are inevitably offensive to someone and therefore need protection from censorship. But it is possible to express these ideas with good will toward that person who is offended.

As MisterLearnToCode says:
We can't ban offensive speech because then we'd be at the mercy of the most easily offended; the lowest common denominator, and wouldn't be able to discuss jack shit.


The least popular ideas are the censor's wedge.

I especially want people to have a place to say things they cannot say in person because of family or work or school pressure to conform to the politically correct opinions in their area.

The goal is for patrick.net to be a place where anyone can amicably discuss anything with others, anonymously, without being subject to the PC police who have effectively eliminated free speech in the United States and many other countries. Deliberate offense is contrary to this goal. Please don't deliberately insult anyone. It may make you feel evil-good for a moment, but it is counterproductive.

If you are expressing a sincerely held point of view with good will, your comments and posts are very welcome here. If your point of view is "offensive" to others, that is no problem. Enjoy your freedom on this site, but please try to keep it about ideas and not about the other users or the site itself. I love Texas Congressman Dan Crenshaw's philosophy about political debate:

https://patrick.net/post/1326765/2019-08-23-perfect-description-of-how-public-debate-should-be

There are many ideas that we will never agree on. The left and the right have different ways of approaching governance, based on contrasting philosophies. But many of the ultimate goals — economic prosperity, better health care and education, etc. — are the same. We just don’t share the same vision of how to achieve them.

How, then, do we live together in this world of differing ideas? For starters, let’s agree that the ideas are fair game. If you think my idea is awful, you should say as much. But there is a difference between attacking an idea and attacking the person behind that idea. Labeling someone as an “-ist” who believes in an “-ism” because of the person’s policy preference is just a shortcut to playground-style name-calling, cloaked in political terminology. It’s also generally a good indication that the attacker doesn’t have a solid argument and needs a way to end debate before it has even begun.

Similarly, people too often attack not just an idea but also the supposed intent behind an idea. That raises the emotional level of the debate and might seem like it strengthens the attacker’s side, but it’s a terrible way to make a point. Assuming the worst about your opponents’ intentions has the effect of demonizing their ideas, removing the need for sound counter-reasoning and fact-based argument. That’s not a good environment for the exchange of ideas.


The primary moderation rule is just to be reasonably kind. Personal attacks solve nothing, and in fact get us further away from solving anything. Examine what is said, not who speaks, and try to acknowledge whatever truth there is in what the other person is saying before attacking the flaws in their argument.

If you don't like this site, go somewhere else. This site cost you nothing, was a lot of work for me, and doesn't even have advertising. If you can't resist insulting the other users or the site itself over and over, you'll be banned and your comments deleted.

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If you don't have the "flag" link, please report personal comments to p@patrick.net by email.


Here are the original articles that made this site famous:

https://patrick.net/post/1282720/2015-07-11-ten-reasons-it-s-a-terrible-time-to-buy-an-expensive-house
https://patrick.net/post/1282721/2015-07-11-eight-groups-who-lie-about-the-housing-market
https://patrick.net/post/1282722/2015-07-11-37-bogus-arguments-about-housing

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361   mell   ignore (5)   2018 Sep 22, 2:16pm     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag      

Patrick says
LeonDurham says
As if there are people who support illegal immigration? Who is arguing for it?


Most Democrats directly support and approve of illegal immigration by:

* granting government benefits to illegals, such as free tuition
* refusal to support ICE's defense of our southern border, to the degree that ICE employees and their families have been attacked
* refusal to even utter the correct legal term: "illegal alien"

Illegal alien was dropped eventually for illegal immigrant, but even that wasn’t enough for the P.C. police in the Democratic Party. Now, we are told, they are in fact “undocumented immigrants.” Undocumented, of course, sounds as if the only thing separating them from legal immigrants is a few bits of paper that old Uncle Sam just forgot to give them.

In a shameless perversion of both fact and language, some of the more extreme proponents o...


Correct.
362   Patrick   ignore (1)   2018 Sep 22, 2:26pm     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag      

mell says
Otherwise it's lights out.


Facebook's head of advertising, Rob Goldman, got in a shitload of trouble for:

1. disproving that the Russians had placed any ads to influence the presidential election
2. proving that the Russians did indeed place many ads after the election deliberately to stir up divisive diversity issues, like race

Russia did harm America by dividing us. Diversity made it easy for them.

The solution is simple: stop promoting the harmful and divisive diversity agenda, and instead concentrate on unity as Americans of many origins. What we can really be proud of is assimilating people from all cultures, accepting and making Americans out of them so that their American identity is their primary identity.
363   NoCoupForYou   ignore (4)   2018 Sep 22, 3:02pm     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag      

Patrick says
The solution is simple: stop promoting the harmful and divisive diversity agenda, and instead concentrate on unity as Americans of many origins. What we can really be proud of is assimilating people from all cultures, accepting and making Americans out of them so that their American identity is their primary identity.



It's also time to get State Universities to require Western Civ courses again. Western Civ i & II, plus a course in Western Philosophy and Science.

How many Liberal Arts majors know who Humphrey Davies or John Locke are? While they say that 32 Genders = Science, POCs must be segregated, and Chemistry is from Arabia (it isn't, in fact the word itself is Greek - Khemia - "To Pour Together".).

People have no clue that 95% of everything was invented by Westerners in the past 200-300 years. Clearly the superior civilization, and something to be proud of.
364   Patrick   ignore (1)   2018 Sep 22, 3:13pm     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag      

Rocketmanjoe says
If what he said was true, then why did he apologize?


Because he wanted to keep his job.

People get fired for telling the truth all the time, especially in Silicon Valley. Case of James Damore in point.
365   FortWayne   ignore (4)   2018 Sep 23, 8:30am     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag      

Variety of restaurants isn’t our strength.

Other countries have that too, yet still shitholes.

Diversity exists in shithole nations just the same. There is no benefit. It’s just neutral for most part. And destructive when it gets out of hand.



Rocketmanjoe says
Patrick says
Diversity weakens a country


@patrick Do you ever go out to eat? Do you only go to American restaurants? Me and my wife we go out to eat, we eat at Korean, Chinese, Italian, Mexican ... We have many diverse types of food to choose from. Wouldn't it suck if we didn't have a diverse selection of restaurants to choose from?

So why does our diversity of restaurants make this country weak?

Next, shoes. Wouldn't it suck if the only shoes we could buy are NIKE? Luckily we are able to choose from a diverse selection of brands.

Wouldn't it suck if you only had one stain of weed to choose from? But, no you don't, you have a diverse selection to choose from and that is what makes America great.

Diversity makes America great.

Politics have divided us. Keeping us from uniting as Americans. If people would just be honest and not just side with their te...
366   mell   ignore (5)   2018 Sep 23, 9:34am     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag      

Aphroman says
Only if you pretend that business would pay higher wages to Americans if only we eliminated illegals.


lol they do. You must have missed the countless news about companies paying farmers, bakery employees and construction workers more now that they can't find illegals ready to hire. This was a huge Trump success.
367   mell   ignore (5)   2018 Sep 23, 9:40am     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag      

FortWayne says
Variety of restaurants isn’t our strength.

Other countries have that too, yet still shitholes.

Diversity exists in shithole nations just the same. There is no benefit. It’s just neutral for most part. And destructive when it gets out of hand.



Rocketmanjoe says
Patrick says
Diversity weakens a country


@patrick Do you ever go out to eat? Do you only go to American restaurants? Me and my wife we go out to eat, we eat at Korean, Chinese, Italian, Mexican ... We have many diverse types of food to choose from. Wouldn't it suck if we didn't have a diverse selection of restaurants to choose from?

So why does our diversity of restaurants make this country weak?

Next, shoes. Wouldn't it suck if the only shoes we could buy are NIKE? Luckily we are able to choose from a diverse selec...


Correct. Iceland doesn't have a large variety of ethnic food yet it's one of the safest countries due to very little ethnic diversity but relatively high intellect and education.
368   CBOEtrader   ignore (6)   2018 Sep 23, 10:53am     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag      

Rocketmanjoe says
@patrick Do you ever go out to eat? Do you only go to American restaurants? Me and my wife we go out to eat, we eat at Korean, Chinese, Italian, Mexican ...


Noone but the progressives, "You are appropriating other cultures' food", have a problem w exotic foods.
369   Patrick   ignore (1)   2018 Sep 23, 12:36pm     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag      

Rocketmanjoe says
patrick what diversity is it that you speak of that is tearing American apart?


@Rocketmanjoe Please read the article:

http://archive.boston.com/news/globe/ideas/articles/2007/08/05/the_downside_of_diversity/
370   CBOEtrader   ignore (6)   2018 Sep 23, 3:00pm     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag      

Aphroman says
Only if you pretend that business would pay higher wages to Americans if only we eliminated illegals.

As if the unemployed Americans would do those jobs, and as if business is ready to pay them more simply for being Americans.


"According to a former consultant to the bakery, MSI paid the black workers $14 an hour, versus the $10 an hour the Mexican workers were making through Labor Network."

https://chicago.suntimes.com/business/at-major-northwest-side-bakery-labor-issues-pit-blacks-vs-hispanics/

Ohhh idk is a 40% wage increase substantial? The factory is happy to employe $10 illegals. Crackdowns and a wall would result in enormous support for trump amongst all working class Americans. Blacks and latino american citizens will continue to get behind trump in huge numbers
371   jazz_music   ignore (15)   2018 Sep 23, 3:39pm     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag      

Aphroman says
Little Debbie Snack Cakes is in the business of poisoning Americans

Be fair, so is Jack Daniels ;-)
372   LeonDurham   ignore (0)   2018 Sep 24, 8:23am     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag      

Yep-Trump's "tax cut" was about as big of a middle finger to the working class as I've ever seen.
373   WookieMan   ignore (5)   2018 Sep 24, 8:57am     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag      

Rocketmanjoe says
Politics have divided us. Keeping us from uniting as Americans. If people would just be honest and not just side with their team, speak up when they agree with someone not on their team, this would go along way to unite us. I'm pretty sure I've seen some do this here but few and far between. I agree that politics is what is dividing us but don't agree it is diversity.


I generally agree with what you're saying here and get your point of view, but did you go to college? That's not meant as an insult, serious question. And where? (Don't have to give exact school, maybe conference if it was a bigger school as my goal is to not dox anyone)

I went to UIC (University of IL Chicago). They were sooooooo proud of their diversity. You know what the campus looked like? The blacks had their group and would all hang. The whites would all hang out with the other whites. Asians with Asians, etc. Humans self segregate, for good or bad. It's just what we do. And in Chicago, many of these people have their own cultural "way of life" and they segregate themselves into their own large neighborhood or "micro" neighborhoods because that's what they WANT.

Diversity is forced and doesn't actually exist, which I think is what Patrick is somewhat getting at (tell me if I'm wrong). It's a social construct that is being forced on people to shame them for not hanging out with the black guy or the asian dude or the lesbian. My motto is hang out with who you want and everyone else that has a problem with that can go fuck themselves. Don't hate others, which there's no reason to, and we can all have a good time. Don't tell me though that I'm bad for not having a black or asian friend though, because that is what diversity has become. It's not about melting anything anymore.
374   jazz_music   ignore (15)   2018 Sep 24, 10:01am     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag      

LeonDurham says
Yep-Trump's "tax cut" was about as big of a middle finger to the working class as I've ever seen.

Net Neutrality counts big as a "middle finger to the working class"

WTF the whole Heritage Foundation package was anti-American as hell. That's how we got the healthcare we got, it was that or nothing. Nothing doesn't work because too many people were dying. How do the Republicans get to do these things to us and never get thrown in jail for it.

We need to get one of us into our government to subvert the program away from the wealthy takers.
375   NoCoupForYou   ignore (4)   2018 Oct 22, 6:25pm     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag      

Suggestion: GIlding posts with a donation to Patnet.
376   Patrick   ignore (1)   2018 Oct 22, 7:18pm     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag      

Thanks, would not be hard.

What would gilding do exactly? Make the post more prominent? Gold border?
377   CBOEtrader   ignore (6)   2018 Oct 22, 7:34pm     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag      

Patrick says
Thanks, would not be hard.

What would gilding do exactly? Make the post more prominent? Gold border?


I'd have it stick to the top of the page as one scrolls through, so that everyone must read the gilded post as context for any thread. Want a new gilded post? Just outbid the last guy
378   CBOEtrader   ignore (6)   2018 Oct 22, 7:35pm     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag      

And do it in pat.coins , new crypto
379   Patrick   ignore (1)   2018 Oct 22, 8:23pm     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag      

Dunno, seems like a violation of editorial integrity. I don't want to stoop anywhere near as low as, say, NPR or CNN, both of which are simply whores at this point.

I don't have much, but I still have my hymen, so to speak.
380   NoCoupForYou   ignore (4)   2018 Oct 22, 8:28pm     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag      

CBOEtrader says
I'd have it stick to the top of the page as one scrolls through, so that everyone must read the gilded post as context for any thread. Want a new gilded post? Just outbid the last guy


Something like this, but I was thinking more of a link to all the gold plated posts at the top of the page, maybe only the last one or two displaying.

Also, you could set a requirement that it have 3:1 Likes and a minimum of 10 likes to qualify, so it's not pure $$$.
381   Patrick   ignore (1)   2018 Oct 22, 8:32pm     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag      

I appreciate the ideas for monetization.

But why should anyone's post be granted a higher status just because they paid? Don't you want quality above all else?
382   NoCoupForYou   ignore (4)   2018 Oct 22, 9:22pm     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag      

Patrick says
But why should anyone's post be granted a higher status just because they paid? Don't you want quality above all else?



Definitely, so I suggest some kind of minimum upvotes, and/or a high upvote/downvote ratio.

We can gild the top rated posts?

Anything I can do to help with monetization, I'm willing to help out.
383   Patrick   ignore (1)   2018 Oct 22, 9:26pm     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag      

Does gilding work that way on Reddit?

Or what about letting users tip other users, so good writers can get paid a bit? (With a modest 10% commission on that tip going to the site.) I could keep score on the site, and pay out when a balance gets above $20 or so. Would I have to issue a 1099 MISC then?
384   CBOEtrader   ignore (6)   2018 Oct 22, 11:32pm     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag      

If we're just brainstorming than I'd like to see a steam-it type concept wherein likes, quotes, upvotes, shares, etc... all count towards point totals per user, but maybe this just works on huge sites like quora.

Gamification and in-community currencies, it worked for world of warcraft. Just spitballin
385   Patrick   ignore (1)   2018 Oct 23, 7:21am     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag      

I am grateful for the suggestions.
386   MrMagic   ignore (10)   2018 Oct 28, 1:48pm     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag      

Patrick says
Patrick.net is an uncensored anonymous forum.


How much longer do we play the "flag" game?
387   NoCoupForYou   ignore (4)   2018 Oct 28, 1:56pm     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag      

Patrick says
Or what about letting users tip other users, so good writers can get paid a bit? (With a modest 10% commission on that tip going to the site.) I could keep score on the site, and pay out when a balance gets above $20 or so. Would I have to issue a 1099 MISC then?


I wonder if we could make some post/area as a resource for various issues.

I've got several ideas for an Index of things, like tracking domestic terror attacks by cause or such like.

Then slap some ads on it or allow a tip jar, and you should make a big commission for hosting, 20%.
388   Patrick   ignore (1)   2018 Oct 28, 4:37pm     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag      

Tell me more about what you were thinking.

Several times I have linked a certain class of post to a sub-database. Once for housing, once for a list of all SF tech companies, and I think a few others.

So you're saying that the sub-database would be maintained by one user, and updates would all be posted to a specific thread, right?
389   NoCoupForYou   ignore (4)   2018 Oct 28, 4:42pm     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag      

Patrick says
Tell me more about what you were thinking.

Several times I have linked a certain class of post to a sub-database. Once for housing, once for a list of all SF tech companies, and I think a few others.

So you're saying that the sub-database would be maintained by one user, and updates would all be posted to a specific thread, right?


Something like that.

Because Curious2 is good at listing Islamic attacks in the "Islam" thread, there was one (Goran? TPB? You?) on Leftwing attacks, and I had a Hillary thread (and others) that correlate all the stories/incidences about a certain topic. Fake Hate Crimes, that kind of thing.

I remember documenting Terror Attacks by Cause also, but I can no longer find the thread.

Think of this as something like an "Anti-Snopes", but it could also contain Reasons why Buying is a Bad Idea and other list/indexes of events/ideas.

Only the author(s) could comment in the main thread but tips or gripes could be kept in other posts underneath the main thread.

This way the original post could be updated with new information as it comes in. Then we could share with The_Donald, Twitter, and other places to drive traffic.
390   Patrick   ignore (1)   2018 Oct 28, 4:46pm     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag      

TwoScoopsOfSpaceForce says
Only the author(s) could comment in the main thread but tips or gripes could be kept in other posts underneath the main thread.


So maybe the original post (which is what I think you mean by main thread) could itself have a little database that only the thread author could insert into, but everyone could search and read.

And tips or gripes would be comments as usual, below the original post.

Sound about right?
391   NoCoupForYou   ignore (4)   2018 Oct 28, 5:54pm     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag      

That's exactly right.

Without having endless stickies at the top of the forum which suck, kind of a "Reference Thread" with a link at the top on the right side of Active/Comments/New/etc.

And you should monetize it, both because I'd pay for a few threads, and then you can charge for ads or ask for donations also..
392   Patrick   ignore (1)   2018 Oct 28, 6:13pm     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag      

OK, it's plan.
393   Patrick   ignore (1)   2018 Oct 30, 8:03pm     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag      

@TwoScoopsOfSpaceForce I need to pin down exactly how this new feature would look and work.

Are you thinking of essentially an embedded spreadsheet in a post?
394   NoCoupForYou   ignore (4)   2018 Oct 30, 8:51pm     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag      

It could be. I was originally thinking more of a plain regular post

BUT

An embedded spreadsheet would be easier to keep updated and users could sort it by Place, Cause/Motive, etc. rather than just Date.
396   Goran_K   ignore (3)   2018 Nov 1, 5:19pm     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag      

You’re always welcome back. Calling someone a troll is going to always result in a flag though. Now or later.
398   NoCoupForYou   ignore (4)   2018 Nov 1, 7:35pm     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag      

Now that I see Mr. Magic's post was made her where it belongs, I think it should be approved, actually.

HappyGilmore, I don't know why you're @ing me. I only get the odd posts at odd hours. If it isn't blatantly insulting, I usually let it pass and only insist that posts complaining about pat.net get made here.

The fact is when Trump won many posters became toilet mouths full of invective. It used to be pretty much confined between Captain Shuddup and Dan and Iwog, but then it spread all over. That's why the change had to be made.
399   FuckTheMainstreamMedia   ignore (7)   2018 Nov 1, 7:51pm     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag      

HappyGilmore says
@Patrick @twoscoopsofspaceforce

OK. Goran has become a large enough troll that it's no longer fun to come here. So I guess he wins.

If this is what you want the site to be, have at it.

Take a look at the blue wave thread and tell me I'm wrong. Iwog was right all along that having him as a moderator will kill the site. I stayed much longer than I should have...


Which of your accounts will be leaving the site?
400   Goran_K   ignore (3)   2018 Nov 1, 7:57pm     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag      

CovfefeButDeadly says
HappyGilmore says
@Patrick @twoscoopsofspaceforce

OK. Goran has become a large enough troll that it's no longer fun to come here. So I guess he wins.

If this is what you want the site to be, have at it.

Take a look at the blue wave thread and tell me I'm wrong. Iwog was right all along that having him as a moderator will kill the site. I stayed much longer than I should have...


Which of your accounts will be leaving the site?


I’m glad someone said it. HappyGilmore is 99% someone’s sock account. I would bet $1,000 cash on it.

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