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Freedom to Offend

By Patrick follow Patrick   2015 Feb 9, 7:43am 504,610 views   543 comments   watch   nsfw   quote   share    


Patrick.net is an anonymous forum where the fundamental human right to offend is protected. Freedom of speech is exactly the freedom to offend. Speech which offends no one needs no protection because it will not be censored. Controversial ideas are inevitably offensive to someone and therefore need protection from censorship.

As MisterLearnToCode says:
We can't ban offensive speech because then we'd be at the mercy of the most easily offended; the lowest common denominator, and wouldn't be able to discuss jack shit.


I especially want people to have a place to say things they cannot say in person because of family or work or school pressure to conform to the politically correct opinions in their area.

If you are expressing a sincerely held point of view with good will, your comments and posts are very welcome here. If your point of view is "offensive" to others, that is no problem. Enjoy your freedom on this site, but please try to keep it about ideas and not about the other users or the site itself. I love Texas Congressman Dan Crenshaw's philosophy about political debate:

https://patrick.net/post/1326765/2019-08-23-perfect-description-of-how-public-debate-should-be

There are many ideas that we will never agree on. The left and the right have different ways of approaching governance, based on contrasting philosophies. But many of the ultimate goals — economic prosperity, better health care and education, etc. — are the same. We just don’t share the same vision of how to achieve them.

How, then, do we live together in this world of differing ideas? For starters, let’s agree that the ideas are fair game. If you think my idea is awful, you should say as much. But there is a difference between attacking an idea and attacking the person behind that idea. Labeling someone as an “-ist” who believes in an “-ism” because of the person’s policy preference is just a shortcut to playground-style name-calling, cloaked in political terminology. It’s also generally a good indication that the attacker doesn’t have a solid argument and needs a way to end debate before it has even begun.

Similarly, people too often attack not just an idea but also the supposed intent behind an idea. That raises the emotional level of the debate and might seem like it strengthens the attacker’s side, but it’s a terrible way to make a point. Assuming the worst about your opponents’ intentions has the effect of demonizing their ideas, removing the need for sound counter-reasoning and fact-based argument. That’s not a good environment for the exchange of ideas.


The primary moderation rule is to not attack other users or the site itself. Personal attacks solve nothing, and in fact get us further away from solving anything. Examine what is said, not who speaks, and try to acknowledge whatever truth there is in what the other person is saying before attacking the flaws in their argument.

If you don't like this site, go somewhere else. This site cost you nothing, was a lot of work for me, and doesn't even have advertising. If you can't resist insulting the other users or the site itself over and over, you'll be banned and your comments deleted.

To repeat, here are the rules:

1. Do not insult the other users.
2. Do not insult the site.

Flag personal attacks and attacks on the site with the "flag" link by each comment so that they will go into moderation where they will be reviewed by a moderator. Please do not flag comments just because you don't like them.

If you're wondering why your comment was flagged, please click the "edit" link on it. It should be pretty obvious when you read your own words again. If you think there was a mistake about the content's being flagged, please write p@patrick.net

If you don't have the "flag" link, please report personal comments to p@patrick.net by email.


Here are the original articles that made this site famous:

https://patrick.net/post/1282720/2015-07-11-ten-reasons-it-s-a-terrible-time-to-buy-an-expensive-house
https://patrick.net/post/1282721/2015-07-11-eight-groups-who-lie-about-the-housing-market
https://patrick.net/post/1282722/2015-07-11-37-bogus-arguments-about-housing

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« First    « Previous    Comments 401 - 440 of 543    Next »    Last »

401   CovfefeButDeadly   ignore (7)   2018 Nov 1, 7:51pm     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

HappyGilmore says
@Patrick @twoscoopsofspaceforce

OK. Goran has become a large enough troll that it's no longer fun to come here. So I guess he wins.

If this is what you want the site to be, have at it.

Take a look at the blue wave thread and tell me I'm wrong. Iwog was right all along that having him as a moderator will kill the site. I stayed much longer than I should have...


Which of your accounts will be leaving the site?
402   Goran_K   ignore (3)   2018 Nov 1, 7:57pm     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

CovfefeButDeadly says
HappyGilmore says
@Patrick @twoscoopsofspaceforce

OK. Goran has become a large enough troll that it's no longer fun to come here. So I guess he wins.

If this is what you want the site to be, have at it.

Take a look at the blue wave thread and tell me I'm wrong. Iwog was right all along that having him as a moderator will kill the site. I stayed much longer than I should have...


Which of your accounts will be leaving the site?


I’m glad someone said it. HappyGilmore is 99% someone’s sock account. I would bet $1,000 cash on it.
403   MrMagic   ignore (12)   2018 Nov 1, 8:27pm     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

TwoScoopsOfSpaceForce says
Now that I see Mr. Magic's post was made her where it belongs, I think it should be approved, actually.


I'd like to know why it wasn't approved too, it was posted under "Discuss Anything" since...

Patrick says
Patrick.net is an uncensored anonymous forum.


I posted a 100% true comment, if they aren't allowed to stay, what's left to discuss?
405   www365   ignore (0)   2018 Nov 26, 2:44pm     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

is a housing crash coming?
don't understand why people still buy houses at such insane price.
406   Patrick   ignore (1)   2018 Nov 26, 6:04pm     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

@www365 My own opinion is that Bay Area prices will decline for the next few years at least, but slowly.

One factor is that the new tax law limits the deductibility of interest for the rich. Also, I expect interest rates to rise.
407   jazz_music   ignore (15)   2018 Nov 28, 6:34pm     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

The honey badger
408   HEYYOU   ignore (46)   2019 Jan 22, 1:33am     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

"Patrick.net is an uncensored anonymous forum."
No more moderators or ignorers?
409   Patrick   ignore (1)   2019 Mar 3, 12:54pm     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

There are still moderators, and you can still ignore anyone you want, even me.

You can actually discuss everything. You just can't shit on other users or the site itself.

I changed the site tagline and the title of this post to "Freedom to Offend".
410   NoCoupForYou   ignore (5)   2019 Mar 3, 3:09pm     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Tarantula says
I'm genuinely curious. I used to read this site back then and it would be interesting to hear how it morphed from housing and economics into encouraging offensive language.



Trump got elected, against the absolute assurance of several popular prog/lib posters, and most of them got super beyond Butthurt to the max and couldn't make a post without personal insults.

Then they thought their freedom was taken away and flounced after Patrick tried to control insults after months of nasty behavior.

My favorite was a certain poster who agreed Trump-Russia was BS right up until the election results. Then not a week later was Mr. Trump-Russia-Collusion
411   NoCoupForYou   ignore (5)   2019 Mar 3, 3:14pm     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

I'm all for the melting pot.

I don't like the salad bowl because there's no way to get rid of the Islamist Croutons.
412   NoCoupForYou   ignore (5)   2019 Mar 3, 3:23pm     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Tarantula says
None of that makes any much sense, but it sounds like you had an argument with someone once here. That's personal to YOU, but my question was really about why this site was refocused to protecting the "freedom to offend" over so many other potential choices. I'm genuinely curious.



I was probably one of the least involved in the Great Prog Butthurt.

Ironically, the same people who wanted to ban Capt Shuddup for years based on his behavior, were the ones demanding that banning personal insults was "Anti Free Speech".
413   Patrick   ignore (1)   2019 Mar 3, 5:50pm     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Tarantula says
I'm not clear what this content on housing has to do with the freedom to be offensive? If the economics of housing is what put the site on the map, how did it evolve to a site focused on the freedom to be offensive?


I honestly believe that the rapidly growing suppression of free speech is a far greater problem than the cost of housing. The housing problem will solve itself eventually. The lack of free speech can lock us all into tyranny forever.
414   Patrick   ignore (1)   2019 Mar 3, 6:02pm     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

MisterLearnToCode says
Islamist Croutons


Lol, exactly. Everything else is pretty easy to eat, but those croutons really don't belong in the salad at all. Kinda like putting bits of wood or rocks in your salad.
415   HeadSet   ignore (3)   2019 Mar 3, 7:22pm     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

but those croutons really don't belong in the salad at all. Kinda like putting bits of wood or rocks in your salad.

Yep, and those who do eat the croutons annoy every one else when their loud chewing sounds like a rock crusher.
416   rd6B   ignore (1)   2019 Mar 3, 7:23pm     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

HeadSet says
loud chewing sounds like a rock crusher.

one could even say that their teeth explode
417   ForcedTQ   ignore (0)   2019 Mar 3, 9:08pm     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Tarantula says
Patrick says
the rapidly growing suppression of free speech


I couldn't disagree more strongly. Free speech is more proliferate at this moment than ever before in the history of mankind.

I think perhaps you are confusing free speech with lack of consequences. People can, and should be, held accountable for the consequences of their words.

In fact, I would go as far as to say that free speech without consequence is tyranny.


So you would believe that someone should be able to say something, and if someone else doesn't like it/agree with it/know it to be fact/etc. there should be consequences for the person that said it? Is not that Tyranny?
418   Patrick   ignore (1)   2019 Mar 3, 9:16pm     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Tarantula says
I couldn't disagree more strongly. Free speech is more proliferate at this moment than ever before in the history of mankind.

I think perhaps you are confusing free speech with lack of consequences. People can, and should be, held accountable for the consequences of their words.


I'm talking about cases like James Damore at Google, who got fired for perfectly reasonable comments about why there are more male than female engineers.

Hint: it's not sexism.

Or how Larry Summers got fired from Harvard.
419   rd6B   ignore (1)   2019 Mar 4, 5:18am     ↓ dislike (1)   quote   flag        

https://spectator.us/free-speech-threat/

Calm down! Your freedom of speech is not under threat
Anyone who has almost every aspect of their online life taken away from them is not ‘silenced’
Godfrey Elfwick

As usual, the tinfoil hat-wearing alt-right Nazis are crying out that free speech is under threat. This ridiculous overreaction always makes me laugh. These people have no idea what free speech is. They assume that freedom of speech means you are free to say whatever you want without severe consequences! Imagine that?! What kind of fascistic society would allow unfettered, non-regulated speech?

The companies listed above are all private companies. They are entitled to ban whomever they wish if they feel that their views or behavior are unpleasant. In fact, I would like to see this approach taken a step further. I cannot wait for the day utility companies start banning people from having access to vital services such as electricity, gas and running water. Nextra, Enel and Duke Energy are all perfectly within their rights to deny power to the homes of people whose views they deem problematic.

When it comes to the latest social media bans, I’ve seen cries of ‘Urr, they are trying to silence us!’ What utter rot! Anyone who has almost every aspect of their online life taken away from them is not ‘silenced’. They are still perfectly free to send letters and postcards to people (for now). There is absolutely nothing stopping them from using CB radio, or sending a telegraph. Nothing prevents them from tapping out messages in Morse code to their followers on an intricate system of underground pipes they could easily have built if they obtain the appropriate planning permission. With a little creativity, Alex Jones could communicate his vile thoughts via the medium of interpretive dance on any street corner he chooses. Tommy Robinson could scribble his racist views on scraps of paper, fold them up, insert them into bottles (not plastic) and hurl them into the sea for his fellow Islamophobes to discover while walking their pitbull terriers on the beach.
420   FortWayneIndiana   ignore (3)   2019 Mar 4, 6:53am     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Then go there and do left wing activist there. You’ll get banned in 5 seconds...

You don’t appreciate the fact that you are still posting here. Ungreatful and so entitled.

Tarantula says
In fact, there seems to be no shortage of websites that proffer the most unpalatable "politically incorrect" content imaginable:

White aryan resistance: https://www.resist.com/
Jew Watch: http://www.jewwatch.com/
Holocaust Deniers: https://codoh.com/

There is an infinitude of "offensive" material on the Internet, without even considering all the wierd porn. I don't really see how it needs protecting
421   FortWayneIndiana   ignore (3)   2019 Mar 4, 6:57am     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

In CA most things said on this forum will get you fired for life. CA doesn’t support freedom of speech. But it supports freedom of speech that left wants... such as gender selection, having gays refer to you as cis gendered, etc...

CA liberals live on one way street pushing society into tyranny.
422   NoCoupForYou   ignore (5)   2019 Mar 13, 10:46am     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

We gotta lot of old sockpuppet accounts resurfacing today.
423   Shaman   ignore (2)   2019 Mar 13, 10:52am     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Tarantula says
There is an infinitude of "offensive" material on the Internet, without even considering all the wierd porn. I don't really see how it needs protecting


Let’s start by banning anyone who talks like a Leftist. See how it works? Thought not. For a dude who is supposed to be educated, you aren’t displaying any wisdom.
424   NoCoupForYou   ignore (5)   2019 Mar 13, 11:07am     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Elgatouno says
police your own this is why a one sided moderation policy is fucking stupid


Point me to another current user bringing up a sockpuppet in the recent past that you're complaining about, thanks.
427   NoCoupForYou   ignore (5)   2019 Mar 15, 11:25pm     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

MAGA_BOMBER says
offending is no great accomplishment, Offensive speech isolates people and undermines relationships permanently because all relationships are based on respect.


Respect is to be earned, not given away.

We can't ban offensive speech because then we'd be at the mercy of the most easily offended; the lowest common denominator, and wouldn't be able to discuss jack shit.

Some people are triggered by somebody saying "The Earth is a fucking oblate spheroid, not fucking flat."
428   NoCoupForYou   ignore (5)   2019 Mar 15, 11:35pm     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

MAGA_BOMBER says
Try talking that way to someone related to your employment.

BOOM

You have no worry about that particular problem?

BOOM



So what are you saying, in a democracy everybody should only talk like their boss is around?

Is that the ACLU's new stance on Free Speech: you can only talk as if you're at work on the boss' time and dime?

Sounds scary.
429   Patrick   ignore (1)   2019 Mar 15, 11:50pm     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

MisterLearnToCode says
We can't ban offensive speech because then we'd be at the mercy of the most easily offended; the lowest common denominator, and wouldn't be able to discuss jack shit.


Yes, exactly!
430   FortWayneIndiana   ignore (3)   2019 Mar 16, 8:20am     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

MAGA_BOMBER says
offending is no great accomplishment, Offensive speech isolates people and undermines relationships permanently because all relationships are based on respect.


No one expects everything we say to be an accomplishment. Anything and everything is offensive, restricting speech based on how it offends someone is tyranny.
431   NoCoupForYou   ignore (5)   2019 Mar 16, 11:03am     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Right, so if you say "Men and Women are fundamentally different." or "Humans have only has two sexes", there are a substantial number of people who claim that is Hate Speech.

This is why studies that showed that there were differences between boys and girls during gestation in the womb when culture cannot be a factor, they had to put in all kinds of soothing words and caveats and "please don't hit me" type language when they released it.
432   Patrick   ignore (1)   2019 Mar 16, 11:08am     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Yes, and even worse than that, actual scientific research has been excised from journals because some found objective facts to be offensive.

For example, the research paper showing greater male variability across most species.

https://quillette.com/2018/09/07/academic-activists-send-a-published-paper-down-the-memory-hole/

First, the National Science Foundation wrote to Sergei requesting that acknowledgment of NSF funding be removed from our paper with immediate effect. I was astonished. I had never before heard of the NSF requesting removal of acknowledgement of funding for any reason. On the contrary, they are usually delighted to have public recognition of their support for science. ...

ut, that same day, the Mathematical Intelligencer’s editor-in-chief Marjorie Senechal notified us that, with “deep regret,” she was rescinding her previous acceptance of our paper. “Several colleagues,” she wrote, had warned her that publication would provoke “extremely strong reactions” and there existed a “very real possibility that the right-wing media may pick this up and hype it internationally.” For the second time in a single day I was left flabbergasted. Working mathematicians are usually thrilled if even five people in the world read our latest article. Now some progressive faction was worried that a fairly straightforward logical argument about male variability might encourage the conservative press to actually read and cite a science paper?
433   AD   ignore (0)   2019 Mar 16, 11:24am     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

MisterLearnToCode says
This is why studies that showed that there were differences between boys and girls during gestation in the womb when culture cannot be a factor, they had to put in all kinds of soothing words and caveats and "please don't hit me" type language when they released it.


434   rocketjoe79   ignore (2)   2019 Mar 19, 11:01pm     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

It's the same regarding IQ testing. I keep reminding people that 49% are below average, but no one believes me....
435   MrMagic   ignore (12)   2019 Mar 25, 1:47pm     ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

anti_forum
436   MrMagic   ignore (12)   2019 Mar 26, 9:25pm     ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

anti_forum
437   Goran_K   ignore (3)   2019 Apr 11, 8:30am     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

@Patrick, is there a way to submit entire threads into the queue? Right now, HEYYOU is on a spamming rage, perhaps there should be a way to prevent someone like him from just spamming threads?
438   Patrick   ignore (1)   2019 Apr 11, 10:22am     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Yes, the only rule is no personal comments. Discuss ideas, not the other users.

OK, I do have a few other rules like not insulting the site itself (just leave if you don't like it), not posting commercial spam, and not breaking any laws.
439   HEYYOU   ignore (46)   2019 Apr 11, 11:03am     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Call It Crazy says
gee wiz


Make that Piss on all moderators,ignorers,"personal" posters.
If censorship on this site by any individual was prohibited the snowflakes would leave. Can't handle a little truth.

Fuck those that call this spamming.
G.W.Bush & Republicans maimed & murdered 4801 AMERICAN based on trash Republicans' LIE.
Fuck you Republicans to Hell & back. Republicans are the dregs of the Clever Ape species.
I'll get one a crying towel if they are offended.

Don't talk about other users! Just leave them with nothing.

Bet I couldn't say this on any other site,maybe once before being banned.
440   HEYYOU   ignore (46)   2019 Apr 11, 11:04am     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Those that can't offend everyone are LOSERS!

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