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Like I said, a bit of contact with some clients is hardly much experience of Muslims, and I'd guess that is more than many on here.
To be fair, any contact Americans have with Muslims here in America is not all that credible of an experience as we tend to get the best and brightest and more secular variety.
Does Saudi Arabia represent "true Islam".
How about Egypt and Pakistan?
"Majorities of Muslims in Egypt and Pakistan support the death penalty for leaving Islam"
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2013/05/01/64-percent-of-muslims-in-egypt-and-pakistan-support-the-death-penalty-for-leaving-islam/
Does the intolerant and hateful stuff preached in numerous UK mosques represent "true Islam"?
http://www.theguardian.com/media/2008/aug/22/channel4.islam
Does Saudi Arabia represent "true Islam".
How about Egypt and Pakistan?
You answer it yourself. Everywhere is different. What's true Christianity? A good number of your Bible belt hold views abhorrent to Europeans for example.
socal2 says
"Majorities of Muslims in Egypt and Pakistan support the death penalty for leaving Islam"
That doesn't make it a religion of terror. It simply shows that those are very conservative and religious societies, something that is reinforced by the poor educational standards and levels of poverty there.
Does the intolerant and hateful stuff preached in numerous UK mosques represent "true Islam"?
http://www.theguardian.com/media/2008/aug/22/channel4.islam
Your religious right also spouts hateful and intolerant stuff and has hardly had the kind of forces at play pushing the more outspoken radicals to the forefront. You also have youth in Western countries caught between the conservatism of their families and the liberalism they see around them in day-to-day life. Like many young, they can be led by people manipulating them and playing on their anger at the perceived injustices done to Muslims. The internet has made that process far easier.
It's a stupid question. You answer it yourself. Everywhere is different. What's true Christianity? A good number of your Bible belt hold views abhorrent to Europeans for example.
FFS - you can compare Christianity around the planet from the Catholics, Evangelicals, Eastern Orthodox from Europe, South America to Asia and you will find NOTHING as extreme as the beliefs in terms of large percentages about killing apostates and other extreme beliefs commonly found in the Muslim/Arab world. Not even remotely the same league.
That doesn't make it a religion of terror. It simply shows that those are very conservative and religious societies, something that is reinforced by the poor educational standards and levels of poverty there.
The majority of world's Muslims live in poor and backwards societies. Some could even argue that it is specifically Islam that is holding them back.
FFS - you can compare Christianity around the planet from the Catholics, Evangelicals, Eastern Orthodox from Europe, South America to Asia and you will find NOTHING as extreme as the beliefs in terms of large percentages about killing apostates and other extreme beliefs commonly found in the Muslim/Arab world. Not even remotely the same league.
You don't have to go that far back to have exactly those sort of views expressed (and enforced) in Christianity. Remind me again how many centuries older Christianity is compared to Islam. There is that difference in age and that the West went through the enlightenment. Many parts of the Muslim world are little changed culturally to how they were centuries ago. That outlook needs to change and hopefully it will, but what is happening now is hardly going to encourage that. It is also more difficult in Islam because the Quran is viewed as the literal word of God. Christians ceased viewing the Bible like that centuries ago.
The majority of world's Muslims live in poor and backwards societies. Some could even argue that it is specifically Islam that is holding them back.
Some or you?
Many parts of the Muslim world are little changed culturally to how they were centuries ago. That outlook needs to change and hopefully it will, but what is happening now is hardly going to encourage that. It is also more difficult in Islam because the Quran is viewed as the literal word of God.
The only thing that remotely civilized the Muslim/Arab world was European colonialism. And that certainly wasn't a complete success as we call all attest.
Saudi Arabia still had slavery in the 1960's until the US pressured them to ban it.
There is no way the Muslim/Arab world is going to modernize by itself in our lifetime. Or several lifetimes. If anything it's regressing right now. Larger percentages are more religious now with more women in Afghanistan, Iran and Egypt wearing full burqas now than they did in the 1970's.
The only thing that remotely civilized the Muslim/Arab world was European colonialism. And that certainly wasn't a complete success as we call all attest.
We didn't civilize them, we oppressed them and/or used them as part of the power struggles in the region.
There is no way the Muslim/Arab world is going to modernize by itself in our lifetime. Or several lifetimes. If anything it's regressing right now. Larger percentages are more religious now with more women in Afghanistan, Iran and Egypt wearing full burqas now than they did in the 1970's.
And why do you think that's the case? The meddling of the West this century and last has stoked exactly that.
We didn't civilize them, we oppressed them and/or used them as part of the power struggles in the region.
So - did we "oppress" the Saudis when we pressured them to stop legalized slavery just a few decades ago? Did we oppress the Saudis by giving them the technology to become gazillionaires?
Did the British oppress the Indians when they told them they could no longer burn their widows alive next to their dead husbands?
And why do you think that's the case? The meddling of the West this century and last has stoked exactly that.
Keep making excuses for them.
I guess we are to believe majority of Egyptians and Pakistanis think it's cool to murder apostates because of western meddling?
Has NOTHING to do with Islam - right?
Keep making excuses for them.
I guess we are to believe majority of Egyptians and Pakistanis think it's cool to murder apostates because of western meddling?
Has NOTHING to do with Islam - right?
Except I said that Western meddling had contributed to the rise in conservatism, which isn't the same as '...majority of Egyptians and Pakistanis think it's cool to murder apostates because of Western meddling. Has NOTHING...,' is it?
So - did we "oppress" the Saudis when we pressured them to stop legalized slavery just a few decades ago? Did we oppress the Saudis by giving them the technology to become gazillionaires?
Did the British oppress the Indians when they told them they could no longer burn their widows alive next to their dead husbands?
That is a ridiculous comment. I guess from that your forefathers didn't oppress the native Americans because your country later allowed them to build casinos.
Keep making excuses for them.
I guess we are to believe majority of Egyptians and Pakistanis think it's cool to murder apostates because of western meddling?
Has NOTHING to do with Islam - right?
Except I said that Western meddling had contributed to the rise in conservatism, which isn't the same as '...majority of Egyptians and Pakistanis think it's cool to murder apostates because of Western meddling. Has NOTHING...,' is it?
So - did we "oppress" the Saudis when we pressured them to stop legalized slavery just a few decades ago? Did we oppress the Saudis by giving them the technology to become gazillionaires?
Did the British oppress the Indians when they told them they could no longer burn their widows alive next to their dead husbands?
That is a ridiculous comment. I guess from that your forefathers didn't oppress the native Americans because your country later allowed them to build casinos.
Your stone fast arguments sympathizing with Sharia laws are disgraceful at best. Sharia laws are much too barbaric for humanity.
Your stone fast arguments sympathizing with Sharia laws are disgraceful at best. Sharia laws are much too barbaric for humanity.
You don't half post some cobblers. Where did I sympathize with Sharia law?
Yes, Muslims joined a Muslim force. Remarkable. Why do you think these young people have been radicalized? What have they been exposed to over the last 15 years?
I don't believe Islam is particularly different to any religion. They can all be manipulated any way you like.
A religion is only as good as it's founders.
Mohammad who founded Islam was the most brutal barbarian ever to walk the earth. Murder, rape, slavery, and violence was his legacy. No wonder Islam carries on his legacy. As humans, we cannot and will not allow this 7th century barbarism to be practiced on our planet. As I said before, Islam is the breeding ground of terrorists and barbarism, and we will stop it one way or the other.
People like you who steadfastly stand up for this sick religion in the West are only contributing to the problem, should be ashamed of themselves.
Your stone fast arguments sympathizing with Sharia laws are disgraceful at best. Sharia laws are much too barbaric for humanity.
You don't half post some cobblers. Where did I sympathize with Sharia law?
Oh stop it. You are an excellent debater, I grant you that. If your goal is to simply win an argument, I would not be able to compete with you. But you will never be able to prove that Islam is a brutal and barbaric religion.
But you will never be able to prove that Islam is a brutal and barbaric religion.
I thought that was what you were trying to prove.
Mohammad who founded Islam was the most brutal barbarian ever to walk the earth.
You are embarrassing yourself with comments like that.
People like you who steadfastly stand up for this sick religion in the West are only contributing to the problem, should be ashamed of themselves.
I'm not standing up for it. I'm an atheist. I have no fondness for any religion. I'm pointing out that we are the ones that have contributed substantially to the rising conservatism, and that your sweeping generalizations about Muslims as a whole are just that and entirely inaccurate for most of the adherents of that religion.
How many Muslims do you know, let alone are actually friends with?
Mohammad who founded Islam was the most brutal barbarian ever to walk the earth.
You are embarrassing yourself with comments like that.
Both of you are right to some extent.
"Islam-Ex Muslim., Allah is a Gangster": http://youtu.be/Vl641IFO10g
Mohammad who founded Islam was the most brutal barbarian ever to walk the earth.
You are embarrassing yourself with comments like that.
Both of you are right to some extent.
"Islam-Ex Muslim., Allah is a Gangster": http://youtu.be/Vl641IFO10g
Nice video. I have noticed Islam apologists tend to go silent when Muslims or ex Muslims criticize Islam. The usual excuses of being racist, not having read the Koran, not understanding Muslims or it's all our fault simply don't apply. :)
I have noticed Islam apologists tend to go silent when Muslims or ex Muslims criticize Islam. The usual excuses of being racist, not having read the Koran, not understanding Muslims or it's all our fault simply don't apply. :)
The majority of people who happen to be Muslims are nice people, like anyone else. The video clearly stated that. The ideology of Islam OTOH does have problems. It is hard to ignore.
I have noticed Islam apologists tend to go silent when Muslims or ex Muslims criticize Islam. The usual excuses of being racist, not having read the Koran, not understanding Muslims or it's all our fault simply don't apply. :)
The majority of people who happen to be Muslims are nice people, like anyone else. The video clearly stated that. The ideology of Islam OTOH does have problems. It is hard to ignore.
That is why I call Islam the breeding ground for terrorists. The majority of Muslims will never be terrorists, but only Islam can turn out terrorists so abundantly and so quickly. :(
Nuance is not a conservative strongpoint. Anything more complex than "With us or against us." does not compute.
no one on Patnet is actually an apologist for Islam, at best they are critical of the west's historical arrogance wrt to other peoples' territories, but are nowhere near willing to blame the creation of Islamic terrorism solely on the west. You do understand what "solely" means, don't you?
Are you talking about actions like this one?
From http://townhall.com/columnists/katiekieffer/2013/04/29/benghazigate-obamas-secret-gunrunning-program-n1580051/page/full
"September 5, 2012: A Libyan ship called Al Entisar (“The Victoryâ€) docks in the Turkish port of Iskenderun, carrying 400 tons of cargo including many weapons such as rocket-propelled grenades (RPGs) and shoulder-launched surface-to-air missiles (MANPADS) destined for Syrian rebels 35 miles away from Iskenderun. The ship’s captain told the Times of London that the Muslim Brotherhood and the free Syrian Army broke into a fight over the arms.
September 10, 2012: Stevens arrives in Benghazi, Libya, the location of the U.S. consulate. About a mile away from the consulate, is the CIA annex. Stevens planned to stay at the consulate for five days. His visit was supposed to be secret, but Libya-based extremists somehow learned of his arrival.
September 11, 2012: Stevens has an unusual meeting with Turkish diplomat Consul General Ali Sait Akin. Fox News reported that the meeting was “…to negotiate a weapons transfer, an effort to get SA-7 missiles out of the hands of Libya-based extremists.â€
Sen. Lindsey Graham confirmed on Fox News Channel’s “Special Report with Bret Baier†that Stevens was in Libya to specifically control a situation: “…where the action was regarding the rising Islamic extremists who were trying to get their hands on weapons that were flowing freely in Libya…â€
9:40 p.m. (Libya time): Libyan rebels launched and organized an armed attack against the U.S. Consulate in Benghazi."
I have noticed Islam apologists tend to go silent when Muslims or ex Muslims criticize Islam.
Not on Patnet you haven't, there haven't been any, have there? And if you were honest and rational about it you'd admit that no one on Patnet is actually an apologist for Islam, at best they are critical of the west's historical arrogance wrt to other peoples' territories, but are nowhere near willing to blame the creation of Islamic terrorism solely on the west. You do understand what "solely" means, don't you? You do this because on the subject you're just mad and pretty lazy and it's easier to do that than to address what is really being said by people you don't agree with. You should at least contest what they actually do say, instead of forcing up strawmen that belong to no one.
A third are probably apologists for Islam at various levels. Almost all of them tend to be liberals who mindlessly and continuously criticize the US and the West for anything that goes wrong in the world. And it's always the same fucked up excuse. We stole their land, we attacked them for their oil. We created them because we trained them. It's our fault - it's all our fault- it's all our fault.
When I say "Khatib became a suicide bomber killing kids" you say, "John stole land from the Indians"
Who the hell is John, and what has he got to do with Khatib being a suicide bomber?
So SBH, how the hell do I address you guys, when you guys come up with arguments that belong in a different century?
Nuance is not a conservative strongpoint. Anything more complex than "With us or against us." does not compute.
LOL. Something as simple as "With us or against us." does not compute with some of you guys. No wonder someone else has to do all the thinking for the extreme left. And I thought liberals were smart.
Nice video. I have noticed Islam apologists tend to go silent when Muslims or ex Muslims criticize Islam. The usual excuses of being racist, not having read the Koran, not understanding Muslims or it's all our fault simply don't apply. :)
You can criticize any religion, they lay themselves open for that, but to say their prophet 'was the most brutal barbarian ever to walk the earth' just makes you look like a fool with an agenda.
A third are probably apologists for Islam at various levels. Almost all of them tend to be liberals who mindlessly and continuously criticize the US and the West for anything that goes wrong in the world. And it's always the same fucked up excuse. We stole their land, we attacked them for their oil. We created them because we trained them. It's our fault - it's all our fault- it's all our fault.
And you mindlessly ignore all that as CONTRIBUTIVE factors to what is currently happening. You should read SBH's comment again as apparently it flew clean over your head.
Nice video. I have noticed Islam apologists tend to go silent when Muslims or ex Muslims criticize Islam. The usual excuses of being racist, not having read the Koran, not understanding Muslims or it's all our fault simply don't apply. :)
You can criticize any religion, they lay themselves open for that, but to say their prophet 'was the most brutal barbarian ever to walk the earth' just makes you look like a fool with an agenda.
Why?
A third are probably apologists for Islam at various levels. Almost all of them tend to be liberals who mindlessly and continuously criticize the US and the West for anything that goes wrong in the world. And it's always the same fucked up excuse. We stole their land, we attacked them for their oil. We created them because we trained them. It's our fault - it's all our fault- it's all our fault.
And you mindlessly ignore all that as CONTRIBUTIVE factors to what is currently happening. You should read SBH's comment again as apparently it flew clean over your head.
We as Americans contributed to nothing that makes Muslims go berserk. It was all Islam. We strike back at Afghanistan after 911 and according to you they are so devastated, so tormented, that they start killing each other with bombs. Really, that is our fault? No responsibility on their part? It's like saying - Oh, my wife told me to go to the grocery store, so the accident I had was all her fault even though I went through 3 red lights.
When someone draws cartoons, and these wackos are so distressed that all the killing that follows is the cartoonists fault. Really? They hate and kill each other because they are barbarians who follow a barbarian. Plain and Simple.
"Some groups travel the country pitching their ideology as a way to help homeowners escape foreclosure or get out of debt, by simply ignoring the courts and bankruptcy law"
Now the CRA is responsible for this?
I had a Muslim EE330 Controls System Lab professor - an absolutely brilliant man and astute to the students who worked hard.
I know a guy who is from Egypt, one of the nations leaders in Photonics.
As best as I can tell some like liberty and egalitarianism just fine.
Does Saudi Arabia represent "true Islam".
I have a hard time figuring out that big difference between ISIS and Saudi Arabia:
http://www.thenational.ae/world/middle-east/saudi-men-detained-by-morality-police-for-dancing-local-media
Saudi Arabia’s morality police have detained a group of men for dancing at a birthday party, local media has reported.
The state-linked news website Ayn Al Youm says the Commission for the Promotion of Virtue and the Prevention of Vice raided a private residence in the ultra-conservative city of Buraydah, arresting the men inside for “loud music and inappropriate dancing.â€
The men were referred to police for investigation.
When the embassies got blown up, and the US did nothing (some cruise missiles struck near the same time zone of some threats), we basically emboldened them.
Clinton: Uber Soft on terrorists - cost the US $$T to deal with the stealth and assym WF.
Clinton: Uber entitled, the CRA contaiged into privat market, cost the US $$T to deal with the web of CDOs-MBS-CDS-MERS
http://www.whitehouse.gov/ondcp/drugpolicyreform
Nationwide, drug-induced overdose deaths now surpass homicides and car crash deaths in America
Left Wing 60s era drugs for stress, drugs at work, drugs are great, legalize drugs, drug cartels. Lets sell the drugs from Colo to neighbor states, lets give it to children........
Left Wing owns terrorism of our society. Everyone else is "JV".
Why?
a. That doesn't make him what you claimed.
b. The world was a rather different place back in the 6th Century.
We as Americans contributed to nothing that makes Muslims go berserk. It was all Islam. We strike back at Afghanistan after 911 and according to you they are so devastated, so tormented, that they start killing each other with bombs. Really, that is our fault? No responsibility on their part? It's like saying - Oh, my wife told me to go to the grocery store, so the accident I had was all her fault even though I went through 3 red lights.
So you think invading that country made no difference? And Iraq? Last I checked, most of the problems seem to be occurring around that area. And who said there was no responsibility on their part? Do you actually understand the words 'contributing factors'?
Why?
a. That doesn't make him what you claimed.
b. The world was a rather different place back in the 6th Century.
"b" contradicts "a"
I have heard arguments that the 6th century was a violent era, and Mohammad cannot be blamed for doing the things he did. If anything, Mohammad the "perfect Muslim" made damn sure his followers remained in the 6th century.
So you think invading that country made no difference? And Iraq? Last I checked, most of the problems seem to be occurring around that area. And who said there was no responsibility on their part? Do you actually understand the words 'contributing factors'?
Some "contributing factors" are irrelevant. China invented gunpowder, therefore they were a contributing factor to suicide bombers too.
Ask yourself....If they were Buddhists would this kind of violence have taken place?
"b" contradicts "a"
No, it doesn't.
Some "contributing factors" are irrelevant.
By definition, they aren't. And your example is hardly comparable to invading a couple of countries, causing, both directly and indirectly, the deaths of hundreds of thousands of people, and in the process, triggering a great deal of instability in the region. Those are actual contributing factors, not some stupid once upon a time, many centuries ago, someone invented this, so... argument.
Ask yourself....If they were Buddhists would this kind of violence have taken place?
You mean like the murderous rampages that have happened on a number of occasions in Sri Lanka and that seem to be increasingly happening in Myanmar?
Nuance is not a conservative strongpoint. Anything more complex than "With us or against us." does not compute.
True, but actually it is far worse among progressives these days. That's why Libertarians have a slightly better foothold in the Republican party.
True, but actually it is far worse among progressives these days. That's why Libertarians have a slightly better foothold in the Republican party.
Unfortunately, I expect Rand Paul to be the victim of ceaseless Jeb-directed attacks until he withdraws.
Ask yourself....If they were Buddhists would this kind of violence have taken place?
You mean like the murderous rampages that have happened on a number of occasions in Sri Lanka and that seem to be increasingly happening in Myanmar?
No, I mean the type of violence the most devout followers of Mohammad engage in. Rape, murder, plunder, pillage, pedophilia, genocide, baby killing, slavery, kidnapping, and chopping off heads for starters.
Sheeesh, SBH. I feel all trampled on, stampeded on, pissed on, shat on, spit on, laughed at, shot at, kicked, abused, and molested just for starters.
I forgive you. You know why? Because you know not what you say. Please await response......right now my dog needs to shit. She read everything you just said. :) :)
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http://www.cnn.com/2015/02/19/politics/terror-threat-homeland-security/index.html
From the dim witted minds of Liberals.