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Money matters in school admissions


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2015 May 19, 11:15am   14,338 views  38 comments

by Rin   ➕follow (8)   💰tip   ignore  

I'm writing this as an addendum to the following thread on affirmative action.

http://patrick.net/misc/White+Americans+protest+affirmative+action

When I retire from this hedge fund work, I plan on taking some more courses and applying to medical schools.

As a part of my planning ahead, I'd spoken with an admissions counselor on the whole thing and gotten her feedback.

In essence, she believes that had I'd applied directly from college, chances are, I would have gotten into one (perhaps two) MD schools within the top 80. In other words, I was like every other wannabe R&D type, trying to become a doctor, with a decent profile.

Today, provided I could maintain A's in my postbacc coursework and score in the mid-30s on the MCAT, I have an excellent shot (almost near lock) at a few schools in the top 20. Here's the difference ... I will be retiring from finance and in my letters of recommendation from the senior partners, my pseudonym will be *Rainmaker* for the enterprise. And while this is not business school, the field of medicine also wants ppl who've made it. In other words, they'd see me as someone who could help in raising funds and expanding projects, later on down the road.

So instead of being a regular applicant, I'd be more akin to an heir of Johnson & Johnson, but one who actually wants to study and contribute to something, than screwing around in business school.

Once I'd had these consultations, my impression of academics has plummeted even further, as it's becoming more and more clear, that this is evolving into a country club establishment than a place of learning and providing opportunities for the self-motivated.

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1   Rin   2015 May 19, 12:25pm  

So instead of volunteering at a clinic, she'd recommended that I help setup a fundraising association at my company, with the idea of encouraging our clients and partners to donate to hospitals, medical research, disaster relief organizations, etc, as a way of using good PR to advocate for more investments.

So far, our principal trader has bought into the idea and now, I may stick around as a consultant afterwards, to advocate what a *socially conscious organization we are*.

WTF, here I was, wanting to be a scientist and now, I'm asked to become a politician.

2   Reality   2015 May 19, 12:43pm  

LOL. Just DON'T tell them you frequent establishments north of the border.

They have a money fetish, just like you have a sex fetish. Money is a necessity to almost any long term human endeavor. Don't be shy about your prowess in satisfying those money fetishists . . . just like you'd like a provider north of the border willing and eager to satisfy your fetishes ;-)

3   Ceffer   2015 May 19, 2:34pm  

You'd be a shoo-in for the Masters and Johnson Foundation.

4   MMR   2015 May 19, 2:48pm  

Rin says

WTF, here I was, wanting to be a scientist and now, I'm asked to become a politician.

How are you planning to negotiate through that process?

5   Rin   2015 May 19, 3:13pm  

MMR says

How are you planning to negotiate through that process?

I'd left tech and have been on the sales side of the house for some time now.

When the firm buys out my equity, I'll be a contractor anyways. I guess this would be the mere extension of my prior activities but into a more PR role, sponsored by the senior partners.

6   Rin   2015 May 26, 9:58am  

Thunderlips11, I thought you'd be the most up in arms about this topic matter?

7   Entitlemented   2015 May 27, 5:47pm  

Please tell me this was not UCLA, Univ of Texas, JHU, Georgetown.

8   MisdemeanorRebel   2015 May 27, 6:02pm  

Ceffer says

You'd be a shoo-in for the Masters and Johnson Foundation.

Tee hee, I stayed a night at a swank New Brunswick hotel. You'd think so many college gals would stay in their dorms instead of hanging out in Grey Hair's hotel rooms. I guess they were getting help with their biology coursework.

Oh, I thought you meant Johnson and J---, urk, oh gee, I'd better go get some water, I'm choking a bit on my words.

Rin says

Thunderlips11, I thought you'd be the most up in arms about this topic matter?

Rin, missed this the first time around. Yep - you could be a very supportive Alumni, or Fundraise other ways.

Have you ever heard of Harvard's Endowment Funds vis-a-vis tuition costs?

9   Rin   2015 May 27, 6:17pm  

thunderlips11 says

Rin says

Thunderlips11, I thought you'd be the most up in arms about this topic matter?

Rin, missed this the first time around. Yep - you could be a very supportive Alumni, or Fundraise other ways.

After I gain admissions to some medical school, top tier or otherwise, I think I'll pretty much leave the world at large, and just do my own thing.

This latest grand scheme of casting myself as some "Lloyd Blankfein"-like applicant has gotten me thinking that today's academia is a joke. Its heyday was from 1900 to 2000, where ppl like Feynman, Von Neumann, etc, made a difference. Today, it's just another playground for the grandkids of Hollywood, Washington, Wall St, Big Pharma/Hospitals, and International commodities elites.

10   Strategist   2015 May 27, 6:21pm  

Rin says

In essence, she believes that had I'd applied directly from college, chances are, I would have gotten into one (perhaps two) MD schools within the top 80. In other words, I was like every other wannabe R&D type, trying to become a doctor, with a decent profile.

Today, provided I could maintain A's in my postbacc coursework and score in the mid-30s on the MCAT, I have an excellent shot (almost near lock) at a few schools in the top 20. Here's the difference ... I will be retiring from finance and in my letters of recommendation from the senior partners, my pseudonym will be *Rainmaker* for the enterprise. And while this is not business school, the field of medicine also wants ppl who've made it. In other words, they'd see me as someone who could help in raising funds and expanding projects, later on down the road.

What the F is wrong with you? If you can get in, you apply. It does not matter when.

11   Rin   2015 May 27, 6:31pm  

Strategist says

What the F is wrong with you? If you can get in, you apply. It does not matter when.

The admissions counselor, with her experience in admissions committees, has basically broken down the process into something very clear ... the middle class ppl are screwed. For admissions, those ppl are basically rolling the dice much of the time.

Thus, if you can make money, be a philanthropist for A, B, or C, now, you're no longer a bozo from the middle class but a money man.

A lot of ppl, like Thunderlips11 and others, want to still believe that this whole academic thing is a meritocracy when it isn't anymore.

12   Strategist   2015 May 27, 6:58pm  

Rin says

Strategist says

What the F is wrong with you? If you can get in, you apply. It does not matter when.

The admissions counselor, with her experience in admissions committees, has basically broken down the process into something very clear ... the middle class ppl are screwed. For admissions, those ppl are basically rolling the dice much of the time.

Thus, if you can make money, be a philanthropist for A, B, or C, now, you're no longer a bozo from the middle class but a money man.

A lot of ppl, like Thunderlips11 and others, want to still believe that this whole academic thing is a meritocracy when it isn't anymore.

They don't admit students to Med Schools based on their ability to raise funds. The ability to raise funds is a different skill set, best suited to others.

13   Rin   2015 May 27, 7:07pm  

Strategist says

They don't admit students to Med Schools based on their ability to raise funds. The ability to raise funds is a different skill set, best suited to others

This is the fallacy of middle class thinking.

If a rainmaker can score the avg MCAT/GPA weighted average [ or reasonably close ] of the entering class, he's way above on the totem pole than your average super nerd with a 4.0/40+MCAT.

And this is from someone, who'd worked her whole career in admissions. There are many super nerds, who don't get into a Hopkins or a Mayo Clinic, all of the time. And yes, almost every other applicant shadows a doctor, works in a research lab, a/o plays some intramural basketball/soccer, while writing for the school paper. Those middle class ppl are basically in what's called a *coin toss* queue, where by luck, they get an interview, a/o a subsequent offer, if the interview goes well.

14   MMR   2015 May 27, 7:19pm  

medical students incur – more than $175,000, according to the Association of American Medical Colleges. This has unintended consequences, including student selection of more lucrative specialties and placing medical education beyond the reach of low-income and minority students. The average household income for a matriculating medical student is more than $110,000 per year.

.....Yet 60 percent of medical students hail from families with incomes in the top 20 percent of the nation. Meanwhile only 3 percent come from families with incomes in the lowest 20 percent.

http://scopeblog.stanford.edu/2014/07/01/its-time-for-innovation-in-how-we-pay-for-medical-school/#sthash.attdFNJf.dpuf

15   MMR   2015 May 27, 7:21pm  

Strategist says

They don't admit students to Med Schools based on their ability to raise funds.

Not in lieu of grades and scores, but a person who is close on both and happens to be a rainmaker (of a great magnitude like a Boston Brahmin) could very well get in, based in part on their ability to raise funds.

Perfect example is that William Kennedy Smith fellow.

16   MMR   2015 May 27, 7:22pm  

Rin says

There are many super nerds

Usually Asian or Indian, as well as Africans

17   Rin   2015 May 27, 7:23pm  

MMR says

.....Yet 60 percent of medical students hail from families with incomes in the top 20 percent of the nation. Meanwhile only 3 percent come from families with incomes in the lowest 20 percent.

MMR, this is now the landscape of academia, as a whole. I believe the only difference was that in prior generations, an MD was considered, one of the most meritorious professional programs.

After my consultations, I've now realized that it's become like everything else where connections and monied interests, play a powerful hand.

18   Rin   2015 May 27, 7:24pm  

MMR says

but a person who is close on both and happens to be a rainmaker (of a great magnitude like a Boston Brahmin) could very well get in, based in part on their ability to raise funds.

Minus the Boston Brahmin (as my family was blue collar a century ago), you've described me, as the perfect applicant.

19   MMR   2015 May 27, 7:26pm  

Rin says

else where connections and monied interests, play a powerful hand.

6 of my first cousins once removed got into BA/MD programs at BU, Brown and Northwestern; they all have parents who, although not super-rich, have either A. Connections B. Ability to guide children through the process.....the reason for B is that all the parents in 5/ 6 cases are doctors with one parent being an engineer.

20   MMR   2015 May 27, 7:28pm  

Rin says

Minus the Boston Brahmin (as my family was blue collar a century ago),

I hear you; that's a select few people to begin with;....Medicine has come a long way from the Ernest Amory Codman days, and become a playground 'for moneyed interests' as you mentioned earlier. And that's why real movement to bring down costs of healthcare will go largely unheeded.

21   Rin   2015 May 27, 7:33pm  

MMR says

Rin says

else where connections and monied interests, play a powerful hand.

6 of my first cousins once removed got into BA/MD programs at BU, Brown and Northwestern; they all have parents who, although not super-rich, have either A. Connections B. Ability to guide children through the process.....the reason for B is that all the parents in 5/ 6 cases are doctors with one parent being an engineer.

I'd still say that much of that was more yesteryear than today, at least for general MD admissions. Today, your category B is considered trite and ordinary. I'd redefine the 2000s as A) Monied/Influential, B) Connections w/ a sliver of category A, C) Children of doctors who're guided through the process.

Since you're talking BA/MD, because the monied interests have less interest in continuous lengthy programs, then perhaps, that's the best approach for the category B of yesteryear to by-pass all the games of the general MD admissions of today.

22   Robert Sproul   2015 May 27, 8:16pm  

9 out of 10 doctors are unwilling to recommend their profession.
In a 2008 survey of 12,000 physicians, only 6% described their morale as positive.
Sounds like a great job.

23   Ceffer   2015 May 27, 8:19pm  

If the admissions directors are men, just bring one of those hookerinas with bodacious garbanzos to sit on his face. That, a bottle of scotch and some Havanas ought to do it. If it doesn't threaten to blackmail and post pictures on the internet.

Medicine needs more sociopaths without a shred of conscience because, otherwise, the profession has become entirely too nerve wracking.

24   MMR   2015 May 27, 8:53pm  

Rin says

category B is considered trite and ordinary

Maybe; but I don't think everyone is as, how should I put it, 'dynamic, imaginative and forward thinking' as you are, including the vast majority of the children of tiger moms across America. I suspect it is mainly because they live life with blinders and rarely take time to reflect. At least, that's what I've observed in my relatively small sample size

Rin says

Since you're talking BA/MD, because the monied interests have less interest in continuous lengthy programs, then perhaps, that's the best approach for the category B of yesteryear to by-pass all the games of the general MD admissions of today.

None of my relatives in the profession, most of whom work in the community, with some in academia, are interested in the games of the general MD admissions today. But most are quite skilled at 'gaming the process', largely a function of parental guidance and parental income/access to resources/info.

Rin says

MD was considered, one of the most meritorious professional programs.

To a lot of people it still is(usually immigrant families buy into that hype, in my extensive experience), but the public trust in the profession has been eroding for some time. As you've previously mentioned, it's one of the few places where being a straight A student holds the promise of a decent income.

25   MMR   2015 May 27, 8:55pm  

Robert Sproul says

9 out of 10 doctors are unwilling to recommend their profession.

What percentage of that, in your opinion, has to do with taking insurance? Ironically, about 42% of students who go into medical school 'know' that they want to be a doctor by the time they are 13-14 years old.

26   Rin   2015 May 27, 9:07pm  

MMR says

As you've previously mentioned, it's one of the few places where being a straight A student holds the promise of a decent income.

Yes ... if that person applies all over the place, chances are, he'll get a spot somewhere.

On the flip side, he's probably not aware of those ppl, who'd gotten an easier route to Hopkins or Mayo, as a result of connections, money, etc.

27   bob2356   2015 May 27, 9:15pm  

Rin says

Yes ... if that person applies all over the place, chances are, he'll get a spot somewhere.

On the flip side, he's probably not aware of those ppl, who'd gotten an easier route to Hopkins or Mayo, as a result of connections, money, etc

Why would he care? The only real reason for going to the top schools, as well as with paying for the top schools, is to do serious research, super competitive sub specialities , or academic medicine at a top school. People who graduate from state medical schools are still called doctor.

28   MMR   2015 May 27, 9:20pm  

Rin says

Yes ... if that person applies all over the place, chances are, he'll get a spot somewhere.

On the flip side, he's probably not aware of those ppl, who'd gotten an easier route to Hopkins or Mayo, as a result of connections, money, etc.

I'd say about a 40-50% chance depending on grades and home state. Places like California and Massachusetts are highly competitive; places like Georgia not nearly as much.

I still say the people with the easier route are those whose families have the funds to donate a building or something of that magnitude. Not saying they don't exist, but they aren't as widespread in medicine as Boston Brahmins with 10+ generations of family members at Harvard undergrad with gentleman C's, such as William Weld for example.

29   Rin   2015 May 27, 9:24pm  

MMR says

I'd say about a 40-50% chance depending on grades and home state. Places like California and Massachusetts are highly competitive; places like Georgia not nearly as much.

I still say the people with the easier route are those whose families have the funds to donate a building or something of that magnitude. Not saying they don't exist, but they aren't as widespread in medicine as Boston Brahmins with 10+ generations of family members at Harvard undergrad with gentleman C's, such as William Weld for example.

No argument out of me.

30   Rin   2015 May 27, 9:35pm  

bob2356 says

Why would he care? The only real reason for going to the top schools, as well as with paying for the top schools, is to do serious research, super competitive sub specialities , or academic medicine at a top school. People who graduate from state medical schools are still called doctor.

Bob, I've grown tired of answering to you. Really, all you've ever done is troll on my threads. Go screw yourself. If you want to be some spokesperson of the middle class ... should I really give a shit? Honestly, I don't give a rat's ass about your ideas anymore.

The top schools also offer access to management consulting and financial opportunities. It's not all about academic medicine. It's also about access to power. MDs also find themselves in these areas.

In the world of admissions, money matters. Now that I'm in that world, I see that it's made a difference. At least MMR, knows what I'm talking about.

Do you not sense that I'm a bit depressed and angry about this whole situation? Do you not sense that I wish that the world was more fair and so forth, for ppl in the middle class? No, instead, you play the shooting the messenger game as if somehow, I'd created this whole system. I didn't!

31   Ceffer   2015 May 27, 11:20pm  

Many years ago, when the push was on giving minorities and women preferential admission, a lawsuit was filed against UC Davis medical school by a white applicant, who prevailed.

He wound up exposing all kinds of admissions bias, which included the fact that 10 percent of the admissions to the professional schools, including medicine, were appropriated to the presiding Regents who just put in anyone they wanted i.e. donor's children, their own children, connected friend's children, politician's children etc. etc without any recognizance. This was a publicly funded school, so you can imagine what the private schools do. The embarrassment over the admissions disclosures caused some problems for the Regents for a while, but then, it all died down and back to business as usual.

32   bob2356   2015 May 27, 11:30pm  

Rin says

bob2356 says

Why would he care? The only real reason for going to the top schools, as well as with paying for the top schools, is to do serious research, super competitive sub specialities , or academic medicine at a top school. People who graduate from state medical schools are still called doctor.

Bob, I've grown tired of answering to you. Really, all you've ever done is troll on my threads. Go screw yourself. If you want to be some spokesperson of the middle class ... should I really give a shit? Honestly, I don't give a rat's ass about your ideas anymore.

Rin says

The top schools also offer access to management consulting and financial opportunities. It's not all about academic medicine. It's also about access to power. MDs also find themselves in these areas.

In the world of admissions, money matters. Now that I'm in that world, I see that it's made a difference. At least MMR, knows what I'm talking about.

WTF are you babbling about. Have you been smoking dope or something? If you are so wrapped up in your own ego, since most of your posts seem to be about stroking your ego, that this obsession with top medical schools for opportunity and power is all important to you then that's your problem. For the 95% of people who go to medical school for the old fashioned reason of treating patients none of this means shit. You haven't posted one word, here or in any of your other posts about medical school, about your ambition of going to medical school to treat sick people. Pretty telling. Let a medical school admission board sniff that attitude out and you're dead.

You are far from being the messenger of the middle class no matter what you believe. The idea is laughable after all your posts about raking it in at a hedge fund and jetting around the world to bang hookers.

If you don't like people asking questions don't post. If you don't want to answer then don't respond. I'm devastated that you don't give a rat's ass about my ideas. After dinner I'll faint.

33   bob2356   2015 May 28, 12:03am  

Ceffer says

Many years ago, when the push was on giving minorities and women preferential admission, a lawsuit was filed against UC Davis medical school by a white applicant, who prevailed.

He wound up exposing all kinds of admissions bias, which included the fact that 10 percent of the admissions to the professional schools, including medicine, were appropriated to the presiding Regents who just put in anyone they wanted i.e. donor's children, their own children, connected friend's children, politician's children etc. etc without any recognizance. This was a publicly funded school, so you can imagine what the private schools do. The embarrassment over the admissions disclosures caused some problems for the Regents for a while, but then, it all died down and back to business as usual.

I remember it in the papers. It was a really big supreme court case that knocked out fixed quotas. Looked it up, it was uc davis vs bakke in 1978. The facts are a little different. It was the dean of the medical school, not the regents, that intervened to have applications brought to the top of the pile. The number was 8 students at the medical school, but the paper doesn't say if it's one year or total. http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/latimes/doc/158083544.html?FMT=ABS&FMTS=ABS:AI&type=historic&date=Jul+5%2C+1976&author=Trombley%2C+William&pub=Los+Angeles+Times+%281923-Current+File%29&edition=&startpage=&desc=Medical+Dean+Aids+%27Special+Interest%27+Applicants Probably the deans of the other professional schools did the same thing, but no one investigated it.

Do you really believe in the internet age deans of medical schools are interfering with admissions risking scandal and legal actions? Be pretty bold.

34   Ceffer   2015 May 28, 12:59am  

I am so glad to learn that the Deans aren't political animals who don't answer to the Regents. What a relief, I feel so much better now.

35   MisdemeanorRebel   2015 May 28, 9:13am  

Rin says

A lot of ppl, like Thunderlips11 and others, want to still believe that this whole academic thing is a meritocracy when it isn't anymore.

Oh, I don't believe admission to elite institutions is wholly or mostly a meritocracy.

Harvard doesn't need to charge undergrads tuition - it's Endowment is so massive, the interest alone would cover that and then some (physical plant, etc.)

It does so anyway as a means of keeping the unwashed out. That and "Extracurricular Activities".

How many sports does Stephen Hawking play?

36   MisdemeanorRebel   2015 May 28, 9:16am  

Funniest thing about MA, you get one guy who is wanted by the FBI for Mafia Activities, the other brother is running UMass - the Bolgers.

37   MMR   2015 May 28, 7:37pm  

Rin says

Do you not sense that I'm a bit depressed and angry about this whole situation?

It's a lot of shit, med school...but if you have that kind of money, I do think it is possible for you to ultimately do what you wanted to do careerwise....specifically research that is unfettered by 'moneyed interests'. It's definitely the road less traveled, but, if you have the capital, it is at least conceivable that you could do it. Depending on your focus, you may not necessarily have to do a residency.

38   Strategist   2015 May 28, 7:53pm  

Rin says

The top schools also offer access to management consulting and financial opportunities. It's not all about academic medicine. It's also about access to power. MDs also find themselves in these areas.

Rin, there are several MD's in family. About half have their own practices, and the rest are with major hospitals. None of them have even remotely mentioned your claims about "power" and "recruiting"
The Med Schools are in the hunt for the most outstanding and qualified candidates, which gives them a good reputation in the long run. I really don't know what yo are getting at.

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