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The end of capitalism has begun


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2015 Jul 17, 9:30am   17,993 views  65 comments

by tovarichpeter   ➕follow (6)   💰tip   ignore  

http://www.theguardian.com/books/2015/jul/17/postcapitalism-end-of-capitalism-begun

For much of the 20th century this was how the left conceived the first stage of an economy beyond capitalism. The force would be applied by the working class, either at the ballot box or on the barricades. The lever would be the state. The opportunity would come through frequent episodes of economic collapse. Instead over the past 25 years it has been the lefts project that has collapsed. The market destroyed the plan; individualism replaced collectivism and solidarity; the hugely expanded workforce of the world looks like a proletariat, but no longer thinks or behaves as it once did....

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1   Tenpoundbass   2015 Jul 17, 9:41am  

That's OK for those of us, that would refuse to sit on our asses and wait for the ruling class to pick over the community carcass and throw the lowly comrades a scrap.
The Black market will be one hell of a money maker for those of us not afraid of hard work.

2   HydroCabron   2015 Jul 17, 10:19am  

CaptainShuddup says

those of us, that would refuse to sit on our asses and wait for the ruling class to pick over the community carcass and throw the lowly comrades a scrap

Still looking for that tax cut when the Republicans win big in 2016?

Are you gonna buy a car? A boat? Maybe do a remodel of Shuddup Manor?

3   Strategist   2015 Jul 17, 10:20am  

tovarichpeter says

The end of capitalism has begun

The end of capitalism began ever since Karl Marx invented communism. Taking awful long.

4   MisdemeanorRebel   2015 Jul 17, 10:32am  

Not really, feudalism lasted about a thousand years.

5   socal2   2015 Jul 17, 10:38am  

That would be a shame as Capitalism has lifted more people out of poverty than any other ideology or man-made economic construct in modern history.

http://www.economist.com/news/leaders/21578665-nearly-1-billion-people-have-been-taken-out-extreme-poverty-20-years-world-should-aim

6   MisdemeanorRebel   2015 Jul 17, 10:41am  

socal2 says

Capitalism has lifted more people out of poverty

And Egyptian and Babylonian despotism of the Early Bronze Age probably oversaw the greatest boom in population and the greatest decline in hunger.

7   Strategist   2015 Jul 17, 10:44am  

Only capitalism can create wealth for society. Anything else will only suck up the wealth.

8   Tenpoundbass   2015 Jul 17, 10:59am  

HydroCabron says

Still looking for that tax cut when the Republicans win big in 2016?

Are you gonna buy a car? A boat? Maybe do a remodel of Shuddup Manor?

Wait I thought you bastards only wanted to tax the 1%, and the republicans like to tax the middle class and give breaks to the 1%, you're not suggesting that I'm a one percenter are you?

9   Heraclitusstudent   2015 Jul 17, 11:57am  

This article is about 10 times too abstract.
It's simple: people with no work fall out of the capitalistic society. Do not consume.
Once a majority is there, then we don't have capitalism anymore.

This has nothing to do with information. The sharing economy is just a way to organize new exchanges that bypass and shortcut the previous structures.

10   Tenpoundbass   2015 Jul 17, 12:01pm  

Heraclitusstudent says

Once a majority is there, then we don't have capitalism anymore.

You don't consider the black market capitalism?

My Dad(Dog rest his soul) said he loved being a Merchant marine during WWII he made a ton of money selling rations and contraband on the black market over seas.

11   Dan8267   2015 Jul 17, 12:39pm  

socal2 says

That would be a shame as Capitalism has lifted more people out of poverty than any other ideology or man-made economic construct in modern history.

This is complete ideological bullshit. It is technological advancement, not capitalism, that has taken people out of poverty.

Satisfying economic needs boils down to two thing: production per capita and distribution of wealth created. Everything else is details at best and bullshit at worse.

Furthermore, there have only been three economic systems every tried by mankind: capitalism, communism, and feudalism. There are literally an infinite number of possible economic systems. Trying three out of infinity is hardly reason to call of the search.

12   Dan8267   2015 Jul 17, 12:44pm  

Strategist says

Only capitalism can create wealth for society. Anything else will only suck up the wealth.

Care to back those two assertions up with any evidence or reasoning?

Do you realize how incredibly stupid it is to make a statement in the form only x[1] can do y when there are literally an infinite number of alternatives not tried and only three extremely similar ideas have been tried? It's like saying
        Only ball-sack flavor ice cream tastes good. Any other flavor would taste worst.
when the only three flavors of ice cream you've ever tried or even heard of are ball-sack, ass, and Santorum. There might be other possible flavors like vanilla and chocolate that taste better than ball-sack.

13   MisdemeanorRebel   2015 Jul 17, 12:47pm  

The Sharing Economy is an abused term. For example, Uber is not a sharing economy. When you are trolling for fares, you are not "Sharing" anymore than an ordinary Taxi Driver or Livery Service.

Sharing Economy would be like open source, with donations to the developers.

14   Strategist   2015 Jul 17, 12:48pm  

Dan8267 says

socal2 says

That would be a shame as Capitalism has lifted more people out of poverty than any other ideology or man-made economic construct in modern history.

This is complete ideological bullshit. It is technological advancement, not capitalism, that has taken people out of poverty.

Those damn capitalists, they invented everything worth buying. :)

Dan8267 says

Satisfying economic needs boils down to two thing: production per capita and distribution of wealth created.

Which only capitalism has managed to achieve in large quantities.
You worry me, Dan.

15   Heraclitusstudent   2015 Jul 17, 12:58pm  

thunderlips11 says

The Sharing Economy is an abused term. For example, Uber is not a sharing economy. When you are trolling for fares, you are not "Sharing" anymore than an ordinary Taxi Driver or Livery Service.

Sharing Economy would be like open source, with donations to the developers.

Sharing like Airbnb doesn't mean you don't make a profit. It means you share something you already have anyway for a profit: an apartment, a car ride, etc...
Because it is incidental, relatively informal and peer to peer, it short cuts all the usual parasites: states, unions, etc...
It returns the economy down to the pure human level.

16   CL   2015 Jul 17, 1:10pm  

Heraclitusstudent says

Sharing like Airbnb doesn't mean you don't make a profit

Or, when you realize an expensive asset like a car sits idle 90% of the day. We could share one instead, and reduce car purchases and save space on roads, streets and garages.

17   Strategist   2015 Jul 17, 1:13pm  

Dan8267 says

Strategist says

Only capitalism can create wealth for society. Anything else will only suck up the wealth.

Care to back those two assertions up with any evidence or reasoning?

Do you realize how incredibly stupid it is to make a statement in the form only x[1] can do y when there are literally an infinite number of alternatives not tried and only three extremely similar ideas have been tried? It's like saying

        Only ball-sack flavor ice cream tastes good. Any other flavor would taste worst.

when the only three flavors of ice cream you've ever tried or even heard of are ball-sack, ass, and Santorum. There might be other possible flavors like vanilla and chocolate that taste better than ball-sack.

Show me an example of a non capitalistic country ever succeeding.
All successful economies practice some form of capitalism, with variations. But trying a different version of socialism will only lead to the same results. Cuba....Soviet Union. N Korea, and Greece.

18   Strategist   2015 Jul 17, 1:42pm  

CL says

Or, when you realize an expensive asset like a car sits idle 90% of the day. We could share one instead, and reduce car purchases and save space on roads, streets and garages.

Most cars are barely driven 1 0r 2 hours a day, and in California you need three of them. Self driving Uber cars could reduce the number of cars needed by 80%. They will all be electric.

19   Strategist   2015 Jul 17, 1:51pm  

Dan8267 says

Strategist says

Only capitalism can create wealth for society. Anything else will only suck up the wealth.

Care to back those two assertions up with any evidence or reasoning?

Here is more evidence. Google added $66 billion to the wealth of the America in a single day.

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/google-having-best-day-in-history-of-wall-street-investors-gain-65-billion-2015-07-17

It’s official: Google books biggest day in history, adding $66.9B

20   HEY YOU   2015 Jul 17, 4:57pm  

https://www.youtube.com/embed/iKEZoY-TMG4

"Turns out the Socialism is for them & the capitalism is for us."

21   Strategist   2015 Jul 17, 6:28pm  

Hey, you just found Jazz's car.

22   MisdemeanorRebel   2015 Jul 17, 7:28pm  

Heraclitusstudent says

Sharing like Airbnb doesn't mean you don't make a profit. It means you share something you already have anyway for a profit: an apartment, a car ride, etc...

Because it is incidental, relatively informal and peer to peer, it short cuts all the usual parasites: states, unions, etc...

It returns the economy down to the pure human level.

Airbnb is renting, often surreptitious sub leasing in places like NY and SF or generating some money off a Pied a terre. It's been going on for ages, just only made more convenient with an internet app.

Sharing means you play with my toy sometimes while I play with yours. It doesn't mean you give me $20 to play with my toy while I play with another toy of mine.
(Ex: Airbnb'ing your place while you're own vacation somewhere else paying a hotel chain to stay there, not swapping with the person who is staying at your place)

The former kind of arrangement is a fraction of the latter, which is what people use AirBNB for most of the time. Usually by breaking every rule in their condo to boot.

People loitering in an area, picking up people off the street to make a fare - not because they are going in the same direction anyway and getting some gas money - aren't sharing. They're black market cabbies.

23   Strategist   2015 Jul 17, 7:41pm  

thunderlips11 says

Sharing means you play with my toy sometimes while I play with yours.

Are we talking about the birds and the bees?

thunderlips11 says

It doesn't mean you give me $20 to play with my toy while I play with another toy of mine.

It's called trade. Money is the medium of exchange.

24   MisdemeanorRebel   2015 Jul 17, 7:47pm  

Strategist says

It's called trade. Money is the medium of exchange.

Commerce != Sharing.

When I give you a banana for an apple pie, that's trade. If I buy your apple pie for $5, that's trade. If we split the banana and apple pie between us, that's sharing.

25   Strategist   2015 Jul 17, 7:57pm  

thunderlips11 says

When I give you a banana for an apple pie, that's trade.

No that's stupidity. An apple pie is worth 6 bananas.

thunderlips11 says

If I buy your apple pie for $5, that's trade.

Nope. That's a purchase.

thunderlips11 says

If we split the banana and apple pie between us, that's sharing.

Yup. It is.

No wonder Putin screws up. You guys must have had the same lousy Econ teacher.

26   HEY YOU   2015 Jul 17, 8:41pm  

Two Rep/Con/Tea unfunded wars costing ~$6 Trillion.Now that's brilliant economic policy.
Their economic teacher must have been a retard.
These fuckers can't escape their stupidity.

27   Y   2015 Jul 17, 9:17pm  

there, I fixed it for ya....

tovarichpeter says

T the end of capitalism has begun

28   lostand confused   2015 Jul 17, 9:33pm  

Didn't the communists say that? Did communism take over the world?

29   Heraclitusstudent   2015 Jul 17, 10:43pm  

thunderlips11 says

Sharing means you play with my toy sometimes while I play with yours.

I don't want to argue about the terminology and the meaning of the word "sharing".
airbnb / uber is often called the "sharing economy".

Strategist says

thunderlips11 says

It doesn't mean you give me $20 to play with my toy while I play with another toy of mine.

It's called trade. Money is the medium of exchange.

Exactly and it's a lot more convenient than finding something I have that you happen to need.
I give you money, you go find something you need, at the end we both got something.
Done between peers, it basically comes down to sharing.

30   bob2356   2015 Jul 18, 6:24am  

Strategist says

All successful economies practice some form of capitalism, with variations. But trying a different version of socialism will only lead to the same results. Cuba....Soviet Union. N Korea, and Greece.

Absurd bunch of nonsense. All successful economies practice "SOME" form of capitalism. Wow, is that a profound statement or what? Sort of like the sun rises in the east. Does that include very socialist economies like Germany? or China? What about all of the poor countries out there that aren't socialist at all? Why aren't they successful? This is a crazy thread with a bunch of blind people describing an elephant. Capitalism is an economic system, not a political system. Capitalism is defined as when trade, industries, and the means of production are largely or entirely privately owned. Certainly that is true in Greece. Saying all successful economies practice capitalism isn't the same as saying all capitalistic economies are successful. Socialism isn't defined just by high government spending.

The lifting of people out of poverty the last 30-50 years had a lot less to do with capitalism than with modern transportation and communication allowing the outsourcing labor to the poorest places on the planet. The standard of living for the western capitalistic countries have stagnated or declined at the same time. The .1% have seen an enormous jump in wealth exploiting poverty around the world, but the rest of western society has lost ground even with the huge gains in productivity provided by technology.

31   Y   2015 Jul 18, 6:40am  

in liberal dominated academia, word meanings are in a constant state of flux.
it is a useless exercise to argue word definitions.

Heraclitusstudent says

I don't want to argue about the terminology and the meaning of the word "sharing".

airbnb / uber is often called the "sharing economy".

32   Strategist   2015 Jul 18, 10:26am  

bob2356 says

Absurd bunch of nonsense. All successful economies practice "SOME" form of capitalism. Wow, is that a profound statement or what? Sort of like the sun rises in the east. Does that include very socialist economies like Germany? or China? What about all of the poor countries out there that aren't socialist at all? Why aren't they successful? This is a crazy thread with a bunch of blind people describing an elephant. Capitalism is an economic system, not a political system. Capitalism is defined as when trade, industries, and the means of production are largely or entirely privately owned. Certainly that is true in Greece. Saying all successful economies practice capitalism isn't the same as saying all capitalistic economies are successful. Socialism isn't defined just by high government spending.

Lets make it simple:
The more a country practices capitalism and democracy, the greater will be it's economic success.
I welcome evidence that shows otherwise.

33   MisdemeanorRebel   2015 Jul 18, 11:39am  

Heraclitusstudent says

I don't want to argue about the terminology and the meaning of the word "sharing".

airbnb / uber is often called the "sharing economy".

But it isn't, which is my point. It's a misleading propaganda term to make it sound like it's some kind of new, hippy dippy paradigm, when it's ordinary commerce.

I'm not debating the merits of Uber and Airbnb here, just saying it isn't sharing.

34   MisdemeanorRebel   2015 Jul 18, 11:55am  

Strategist says

I welcome evidence that shows otherwise.

Merry Xmas.

Also of interest:

35   bob2356   2015 Jul 18, 12:31pm  

Strategist says

Lets make it simple:

The more a country practices capitalism and democracy, the greater will be it's economic success.

Are you saying greece and argentina aren't capitalistic and democratic. Last I checked both held free elections and neither had nationalized their businesses. Did I miss the memo?

36   Strategist   2015 Jul 18, 1:14pm  

thunderlips11 says

Merry Xmas.

China started practicing capitalism. The moment it did, it's economy took off. They now have 100+ billionaires.
Eastern Europe, after the fall of communist Soviet Union, started practicing more and more capitalism. Their economies began to rapidly improve.
Saudi Arabia......he he he. Allah is merciful. Happy Ramadan. :)

37   Strategist   2015 Jul 18, 1:36pm  

bob2356 says

Strategist says

Lets make it simple:


The more a country practices capitalism and democracy, the greater will be it's economic success.

Are you saying greece and argentina aren't capitalistic and democratic. Last I checked both held free elections and neither had nationalized their businesses. Did I miss the memo?

You missed part of the memo.
The key word in my statement was "more". Capitalism and democracy creates incentives for individuals and businesses to innovate, be entrepreneurs, create economic efficiency, all of which are necessary for society and the world at large to create wealth and prosper. It can only happen when man is free to pursue whatever it is he wants to pursue.
Take the example of East Germany for 40 years after WW2, and compare it to W Germany. Look at N and S Korea.
All humans have a skill that can help man progress. There is probably a girl in Saudi Arabia or Afghanistan who might have the answer for the ever elusive cancer cure. But we will never get it because that girl will be restricted from discovering that cure.
The greatest loss to humanity is what these restrictive countries, be it communism, religion or dictatorship, could have invented. We need to reverse that.

38   gsr   2015 Jul 18, 1:48pm  

bob2356 says

Does that include very socialist economies like Germany?

What a goofball statement, are you really this dense? I am sure that "very socialist" country is forcing Greece to practice more socialism through rapid privatization. We might as well say up is down from today.

"Greece does about-face, pledges big privatization push"
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/greece-does-face-pledges-big-privatization-push-120537760--finance.html

39   gsr   2015 Jul 18, 1:54pm  

Here is a good joke for Tovbot and other token socialists. If you just replace the word "businessman" with "socialist", it will be even funnier.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

A West German businessman was driving his Mercedes through East Germany. It was a rainy night, and his windscreen wipers stopped working.

He stopped at a garage where the East German mechanic explained there were no Mercedes windscreen wiper motors in the German Democratic Republic. Nonetheless he thought he would be able to fix it.

The man returned the following morning, and found his wipers were now working perfectly.
"How did you find a Mercedes windscreen wiper motor in the East?" he asked the mechanic.

"We didn't," replied the mechanic, "We used the engine from a Trabant."

40   Strategist   2015 Jul 18, 2:38pm  

Moscow in the 1970s. Deepest winter. A rumour spreads through the city that meat will be available for sale the next day at Butcher's Shop no. 1.

Tens of thousands turn up on the eve of the event: wrapped up against the cold, carrying stools, vodka, and chessboards, they form an orderly queue.

At 3 am the butcher comes out and says, "Comrades, I've just had a call from the Party Central Committee: it turns out there won't be enough meat for everyone, so the Jews in the queue should go home."

The Jews obediently leave the queue. The rest continue to wait.

At 7 am, the butcher comes out again: "Comrades, I've just had another call from Central Committee. It turns out there will be no meat at all, so you should all go home."

The crowd disperses, grumbling all the while: "Those bloody Jews get all the luck!" Andrew Vornic/Julian Cox

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