patrick.net

Rin says

Unfortunately, his client wanted a person with a CPA, with direct audit experience, and not a type of Mr-Know-It-All with financial, oracle, and general technical know-all. Basically, from my old acquaintance's summary statement, an engineer in finance, was not the same as an accountant in audit, despite possibly knowing the same stuff, from the Oracle systems' pov.

I find these audit people strange. I have dealt with audit folks from the big 4 and they ask for the strangest things to audit on and we supply them with whatever crap we think matches their request and they never ask a question in return. Well on occasion they do, but it is even stranger. I mean it is like they pick somebody who does not know how the company works, what business you are in and how IT and business all tie together. It is scary, because big companies rely on these auditors to make sure they are compliant. Sometimes I wonder if it is just a giant scam and these dunces are just paid so the company can say they did their due diligence ??

lostand confused says

I find these audit people strange. I have dealt with audit folks from the big 4 and they ask for the strangest things to audit on and we supply them with whatever crap we think matches their request and they never ask a question in return. Well on occasion they do, but it is even stranger. I mean it is like they pick somebody who does not know how the company works, what business you are in and how IT and business all tie together. It is scary, because big companies rely on these auditors to make sure they are compliant. Sometimes I wonder if it is just a giant scam and these dunces are just paid so the company can say they did their due diligence ??

Whatever their game is, isn't the issue.

It's this constant notion of STEM education and the value of STEM when most accountants, yes, sans the accountants with a high level of math or engineering backgrounds, who'd left those areas for a BS or MS in accounting, are mediocre in subjects such as Calculus, Differential Equations, Thermodynamics, or Quantum Mechanics.

And thus, when I argue for homeschooling, I get these insipid responses like "most high school students couldn't get a B- at Harvard Extension physics", as if somehow, that level of mediocrity, justifies a stupid culture where ppl should attend high school, just to get dumbed down, to the level of the average auditor or marketing/sales manager.

You are totally misrepresenting my point of view. I have no question you and others like you are able to teach yourself everything you want. I can as well. Unfortunately, 95% of the population has no shot at it. If you don't believe me, why don't you go try to teach for a year in your future endeavors after you've made all your money and get back to me. The top 5% of the population are very gifted, absorb like sponges and are easy to teach. They learn plenty on their own. The rest of the population, whether motivated or not, is very difficult to teach and have no shot at teaching themselves for the most part.

theoakman says

The rest of the population, whether motivated or not, is very difficult to teach and have no shot at teaching themselves for the most part.

My point is ... who cares, if much of them will become accountants, salesmen, plumbers, or auto mechanics anyways?

At most, much of the population is functioning at a level, not too distinct from a junior high schooler, not even an honors high schooler, well versed in World War I, Austen, or Thoreau.

Ask your auto mechanic, the one who does your brakes, if he'd heard of General Pershing or Archimedes?

And how much would you bet, if Alexander Hamilton wasn't on the $10 bill (seeing that that's free advertising) or the fact that he was shot by Burr (in the first public duel among famous executives), that 90% of the ppl who know about him today, would have ever heard about him? Were those 90% really awake during their Revolutionary war era review?

Education does NOT equal trade skill acquisition. And keep in mind that employers only want to hire people with trade skills they need. Whether they are accountants or patent lawyers or electrical engineers, they want people with skills that make them money.
Colleges don't teach thes things.
Therefore education is limited in actual value. Sure it can prepare a person to learn a tradeskill, but it's unlikely to actual teach such a skill. The graduate will need to secure an internship or virtual apprenticeship to learn the skills necessary to do actual work in the real world. Some even pay extra money for the internship necessary. It's a serious myth that college prepares kids for work.

Quigley says

Sure it can prepare a person to learn a tradeskill, but it's unlikely to actual teach such a skill. The graduate will need to secure an internship or virtual apprenticeship to learn the skills necessary to do actual work in the real world.

It's easier for the average layperson to learn a trade, like fixing cars or operating a HVAC, than it is for him to learn Complex Variables or Differential Equations.

The issue here is that 90% of those who learn those advanced math or applied science courses, almost never apply 'em during their daily lives but yet, we have a constant drum beat for STEM educational shortage.

Rin says

In my homeschooling example ... ppl say that students can't learn advanced math topics like Calculus, Differential Equations, etc, without regular instruction. I believe Oakman and Marcus are a part of this contingency.

I'm learning Chemistry right now, for no other reason that in the 8th Grade I was too busy goofing off and flunked it. Coursera, and Khan Academy on the side.

I learned more about Orbital Mechanics from goofing around for a few hours in Kerbal Space Program, than dry instruction with a live teacher.

Listen, I agree with you on STEM. It's bullshit and stupid to try to push people into it. I made more money investing in 2009 than I did in graduate school. I have a PhD and it translated into jack shit in industry. I entered education as a result of graduating in 2008 with a severe downturn in the economy. I clawed my way to the top very quickly and was able to market myself to another district. I now make more than everyone I graduated with in graduate school. I'm pretty sure I'd make even more money out on my own making pizza.

I'm almost completely self taught as I did nothing but skip class from age 14 on through college. Everything I've learned, I've learned from a textbook. When bittorrent came out, there was a torrent that had about 80 chemistry and physics books in PDF. I was in heaven. But the reality is, very few have the ability to teach themselves or even learn from videos. Even so, the videos out there are extremely overrated in terms of content. Most fall way short of what I hold my students to in AP Physics. We send kids to high school because its entirely possible that they may not know what they like or want to study. If you told the nation that you don't have to go, but here's a collection of videos to learn everything you want, we'd end up with a bunch of kids who don't bother to do jack shit other than play some minecraft.

I'm also with you on education. I've never seen an industry more polluted with hacks peddling bullshit methods that are unproven and ineffective. Everyone fails their way to the top while the greatest people leave because they are held back and go make more money elsewhere.

thunderlips11 says

'm learning Chemistry right now, for no other reason that in the 8th Grade I was too busy goofing off and flunked it. Coursera, and Khan Academy on the side.

I learned more about Orbital Mechanics from goofing around for a few hours in Kerbal Space Program, than dry instruction with a live teacher.

That's awesome that you have taken an interest. And I'm not trying to discourage you, but the Khan academy is missing a lot of details in the Chemistry and Physics lectures. When people say that they learned more in Khan Academy than they did from their teachers, it tells me, their teachers sucked...which is why, when you actually have one that is very effective, we need to stop paying them like shit.

Oakman, I don't understand why you care, whether or not the Khan (or any) Academy, is the online version of Bill and Ted's Excellent Academic program?

If you want some real uni class, try MIT OCW, Univ of Illinois/UC, London Univ, etc.

Let's take a simple HS example, which most everyone here has forgotten. In Geometry, the proportionality rule for triangles is

Angle-Side-Angle
Side-Angle-Side
Angle-Angle-Side

but not A.S.S., Angle-Side-Side (great mnemonic!)

Now, if one had taken a rigorous Geometry class, that ASS rule would have gone through a rigorous proof, to determine its veracity.

Ok, with the above stated, ask your accountant, car mechanic, landscaper, or even solar panel technician, what he thinks about the formal proof that Angle-Side-Side can't work. Chances are, he'll say , “WTF are you talking about?”

And that's the whole point, the world doesn't give a rat's about education. It's about being able to find employment and putting food on the table.

MIT lectures are great. And they are so advanced that most kids in my class who are the cream of the crop academically can't absorb them. They aren't ready to learn at that level when they are 16. I don't disagree about learning trades, but honestly, there are plenty of great things for kids to learn in high school, and you zeroed in on one of the few things that are worthless.

theoakman says

They aren't ready to learn at that level when they are 16

The reason why a person can't follow an MIT, Univ of Illinois (top state engineering univ), or even a Podunk State (mediocre state) lecture is that in the past, the lecture is stated once and for the most part, ppl are simple taking notes and not listening. Today, that lecture could be repeated, once, twice, even four/five times. And then since many courses only meet twice a week, that's many iterations of review. During that time, since notes aren't needed, the only thing they need to jot down is what's confusing.

theoakman says

but honestly, there are plenty of great things for kids to learn in high school, and you zeroed in on one of the few things that are worthless.

The point is that many kids get through Geometry knowing this simple fact *NO ASS*, to determine if triangles are proportional. And likewise, other topics are also gotten through, by memorization and flushing through the material. In reality, many students don't learn much. I'd even argue that from my own 9th grade Geometry class, including the few kids there who graduated with honors, that I'm the only person who still remembers those rules, like NO ASS.

theoakman says

. Even so, the videos out there are extremely overrated in terms of content.

Agreed, at least 50% of the time I find myself scouring the internet for other examples aside from the power point slides (which are themselves based on other textbooks) in the Coursera Class. 90% of the difficulty of learning something is finding the right text or website. One chart or visualization can make the difference between "Aha!" and "Uhhh...."

However, I like this course, Intro to Chem. The MITx assumed AP Chemistry students, the kind that get accepted into MIT, and blew through the basics in one lesson, basics I never learned.

theoakman says

And I'm not trying to discourage you, but the Khan academy is missing a lot of details in the Chemistry and Physics lectures.

I use Khan Academy for drills and repetition, not primarily for instruction. For example, Significant Digits. Also got a worksheet and an answer key from some HS website.

thunderlips11 says

I use Khan Academy for drills and repetition, not primarily for instruction. For example, Significant Digits. Also got a worksheet and an answer key from some HS website.

A big thing here is that it's there and readily usable, unlike let's say the Schaum's guides (or Dover publications), which tend to gloss over the basics but then have poorly listed questions which are then hard to discern, given the cryptic text and lack of explanations.

theoakman says

Rin says

The reason why a person can't follow an MIT, Univ of Illinois (top state engineering univ), or even a Podunk State (mediocre state) lecture is that in the past, the lecture is stated once and for the most part, ppl are simple taking notes and not listening. Today, that lecture could be repeated, once, twice, even four/five times. And then since many courses only meet twice a week, that's many iterations of review. During that time, since notes aren't needed, the only thing they need to jot down is what's confusing.

Don't agree. I find my students only write down what they understand and if they aren't taking notes at a particular time, they aren't sure what to write. They definitely are listening. The reason they cannot follow it is because their brains aren't ready. They need a full understanding of calculus and a solid background in scientific thought before ever trying to follow Walter Lewin. I think you keep putting the cart before the horse. You crawl before you walk. By Freshman year of college, I'd say nearly all of my AP Physics students would sop up Lewin's lectures like a sponge. Prior to that, maybe 4 or 5 students a year at most.

The point is that many kids get through Geometry knowing this simple fact *NO ASS*, to determine if triangles are proportional. And likewise, other topics are also gotten through, by memorization and flushing through the material. In reality, many students don't learn much. I'd even argue that from my own 9th grade Geometry class, including the few kids there who graduated with honors, that I'm the only person who still remembers those rules, like NO ASS.

Yeah, so you are taking an issue with math not being applied? Funny, my kids are so into Physics because its the first real class where we apply all the math they learn in their high school career.

thunderlips11 says

Agreed, at least 50% of the time I find myself scouring the internet for other examples aside from the power point slides (which are themselves based on other textbooks) in the Coursera Class. 90% of the difficulty of learning something is finding the right text or website. One chart or visualization can make the difference between "Aha!" and "Uhhh...."

However, I like this course, Intro to Chem. The MITx assumed AP Chemistry students, the kind that get accepted into MIT, and blew through the basics in one lesson, basics I never learned.

If you want a great set of resources for Chem, there is a great teacher at Stuyvesant high school in New York named Steven O'Malley. He's put together an amazing set of resources to learn General Chem and Organic Chem 1.
http://www.omalleychem.info/

theoakman says

If you want a great set of resources for Chem, there is a great teacher at Stuyvesant high school in New York named Steven O'Malley. He's put together an amazing set of resources to learn General Chem and Organic Chem 1.

http://www.omalleychem.info/

@theoakman, right on man, his slides are great. I just ordered a book "All Lab, No Lecture".

And that's the whole point, the world doesn't give a rat's about education. It's about being able to find employment and putting food on the table.

--------------

its not that the world doesn't give a rats ass about education. It's more that plenty of that "education ", is of no utility to the masses.

What can your typical 98 IQ shlep, do with a STEM education?

theoakman says

Stuyvesant high school in New York

Almost every other student at Stuy, given the fact that they accept less than a few percent of NYC applicants, could have homeschooled his/her self and gotten a college degree, by the age of 17/18, using a mix of homeschooling and distance learning.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stuyvesant_High_School

I believe that Stuy does not have a fast track to the Ivy League ordinary admissions, since so many graduates from that place, apply for all the same programs like Columbia, Harvard, MIT, Yale, P'ton, etc. See the excerpt below:

Stuy article says

3.67% of Stuyvesant students went on to attend Harvard, Princeton, and Yale Universities, ranking it as the 9th top public high school in the United States and 120th among all schools, public or private. In December 2007, The Wall Street Journal studied the freshman classes at eight selective colleges (Harvard, Princeton, MIT, Williams College, Pomona College, Swarthmore College, U. Chicago, and Johns Hopkins), and reported that Stuyvesant sent 67, or 9.9% of its 674 seniors, to them.

Here's my response to the above ... big fucking deal!

I've only seen one resume in my career, where the person had bragged about attending Stuy. It read like this ...

Education:

BS, SUNY (one of the big campuses), Electrical Engineering, Summa Cum Laude

HS Diploma, Stuyvesant High School of NYC

Guess what? No one was wowed by the above.

If you live in the Boston area, you can completely drop high school, take the train into Harvard Square, and get yourself a complete bachelors degree from Harvard's night program, the Extension School. You can also take courses at Harvard College, during the day, as a special student, if your grades are good.

A lot of bright ppl, have done the above and had gotten into graduate programs at Harvard, MIT, Columbia, Chicago, etc, w/o playing the game of undergraduate admissions. So what's the big deal about a place like Stuyvesant in that case?

Rin says

Stuyvesant High School of NYC

Also, don't think about the school, think about the individual.

How is the individual, the one who'd gotten the mark to attend Stuy, benefited by being there, since NO ONE in the real world, cares about which high school one had attended? Realize, this isn't England where attending Eton is critical for being *seen* as born rich. Plus, everyone knows that Stuy isn't a rich kid's school. In NYC, that's Dalton. And thus, a Dalton alumni has better business networking opportunities than his counterparts at a working class place like Stuy.

It's just a Cool and Hip Buzzword Acronym.
If you don't cite it, you're not Cool and Hip.
I know "STEM" PhD's who couldn't change a tire to save their lives.
I'm sure you do, too.

Rin says

If you want some real uni class, try MIT OCW, Univ of Illinois/UC, London Uni

If you use those courses, could you actually get a degree? Granted, I understand that a degree is BS and all, but some people like to look at that piece of paper.

Rin says

everyone knows that Stuy isn't a rich kid's school

It's an Asian Joe Bloggs school. It lacks the 'fast track' to the Ivy because All the candidates look the same (on paper) and come from the same background (not rich/prominent) and accepting too many of them is antithetical to the purpose of the Ivy, which is to "build better leaders" and enhance networking capabilities/capacities. Still lot of people from there get into Ivy schools.

Fast track, are basically schools that are members of the Eight schools Association and schools that are part of the Ivy Preparatory School League.

http://www.thecrimson.com/article/2013/12/13/making-harvard-feeder-schools/?page=1

http://www.businessinsider.com/st-pauls-is-part-of-the-prep-school-ivy-league-2015-8

p=1284334&c=1224573#comment-1224573">Rin says

Stuy does not have a fast track to the Ivy League ordinary admissions, since so many graduates from that place

.....Are Asian Joe bloggs cookie cutter candidates who are placed into a pile competing against each other.

http://www.bloomberg.com/bw/articles/2014-11-21/princeton-review-tells-asians-to-act-less-asian-and-black-students-to-attach-photos

MMR says

Rin says

If you want some real uni class, try MIT OCW, Univ of Illinois/UC, London Uni

If you use those courses, could you actually get a degree? Granted, I understand that a degree is BS and all, but some people like to look at that piece of paper.

I believe that if one takes courses at one's local community college or state uni, it's possible to transfer into London's online program because they can evaluate US university grades but not those of our high schools, since we don't have As and Os level exams.

MMR says

Rin says

everyone knows that Stuy isn't a rich kid's school

It's an Asian Joe Bloggs school. It lacks the 'fast track' to the Ivy because All the candidates look the same (on paper) and come from the same background (not rich/prominent) and accepting too many of them is antithetical to the purpose of the Ivy, which is to "build better leaders" and enhance networking capabilities/capacities. Still lot of people from there get into Ivy schools.

There's more to it than that. From any of these cookie-cutter magnet public HS (with high Asian-American Joe Bloggs), a huge number of them (sometimes a majority of the Asians in the class), not just the magna cum laude crowd, all apply for the same colleges at the same exact time. And thus, by virtue of the deluge, every applicant from there is at a disadvantage from the opening gate.

As a result, you have ppl, who spend every waking moment, trying to win violinist, essay, or drama contests, to beat the kids sitting next to them. Isn't that energy better spent, homeschooling, taking college courses part-time, and then, finishing a college degree by the time one is an adult?

On the other hand, from a brand name private school, the average person there, who isn't let's say magna cum laude material, for instance, John Kerry, Al Gore, etc, when they apply for colleges, they don't necessarily put the kid-on-scholarship (sorry, make that a loan) sitting next to them, at a significant disadvantage, because one, the Ivies tend to accept more from those places (due to legacy and rich donor types), and at the same time, they can give consideration to a middle classer for making the numbers (GPA/SATs/APs) from the rich kids' camps, look better.

When I see resumes from applicants who list their magnet high schools, not just Stuy, I almost feel like crying, because I know exactly that they're thinking. It's like somehow, the world handed 'em a lemon, and now, they're holding up a lemonade sign attempting to make that look important for a world which cares about the following ...

1) Job --- Risk Analyst
2) Firm --- XYZ Capital Group
3) College (and/or Business/Law) School --- Ivies/Duke/Stanford/MIT/Oxbridge/London/Chicago

And if the above has high school listed (or worse, a science award from HS), then that person looks like a chump, because at that point in his career, his work experience should cover the first page and a half.

Rin says

As a result, you have ppl, who spend every waking moment, trying to win violinist, essay, or drama contests, to beat the kids sitting next to them. Isn't that energy better spent, homeschooling, taking college courses part-time, and then, finishing a college degree by the time one is an adult?

They can't do that once they've overspent to live in a top school district. Rin says

MMR says

Rin says

If you want some real uni class, try MIT OCW, Univ of Illinois/UC, London Uni

If you use those courses, could you actually get a degree? Granted, I understand that a degree is BS and all, but some people like to look at that piece of paper.

I believe that if one takes courses at one's local community college or state uni, it's possible to transfer into London's online program because they can evaluate US university grades but not those of our high schools, since we don't have As and Os level exams

So you are saying that one need not actually complete high school but rather take the comparable courses at a community college and transfer into London's online program? If one were headed on the path to the London online program, how would the MIT courses or UIUC courses be used? I truly wish I had known someone like you and had this level of guidance when I was a teenager. I think I would have achieved a lot more.

Rin says

When I see resumes from applicants who list their magnet high schools, not just Stuy, I almost feel like crying, because I know exactly that they're thinking. It's like somehow, the world handed 'em a lemon, and now, they're holding up a lemonade sign attempting to make that look important for a world which cares about the following ...

That's sad since a very high percentage of the kids graduating from stuy end up doing a science based major at a place like Stony Brook.

Rin says

And thus, by virtue of the deluge, every applicant from there is at a disadvantage from the opening gate.

Especially the Asian applicantRin says

As a result, you have ppl, who spend every waking moment, trying to win violinist, essay, or drama contests

Add spelling bee for the IndiansRin says

who isn't let's say magna cum laude material, for instance, John Kerry, Al Gore, etc, when they apply for colleges, they don't necessarily put the kid-on-scholarship (sorry, make that a loan) sitting next to them, at a significant disadvantag

Are people who come from prominent families that have a long history of philanthropy. Knowing people like them and rubbing elbows with people like them is what gives the Ivy their mystique. A school full of Asians offers no such mystique.

MMR says

If one were headed on the path to the London online program, how would the MIT courses or UIUC courses be used?

The streaming free classes (MIT, UI, etc) are there to learn the material, since one can't get credit for them, w/o forking over the cash as a special student.

Then, taking similar classes at the community college or local state uni would be pure review and thus, a person would get a 3.9-4.0 with minimal added effort. Afterwards, sophomore level transfer admissions to London online shouldn't be a problem. Plus, the UK bachelors is
only 3 years so it's not like one needs to spend 4 years doing the program.

MMR says

That's sad since a very high percentage of the kids graduating from stuy end up doing a science based major at a place like Stony Brook.

Yes, a total and complete waste.

Rin, what's the deal with A and O levels, do you have a idea about that?

Love the UK Bachelors, less fluff more course stuff. It's not half or more of the time doing unrelated stuff ("Electives") like US Bachelor's Degrees.

MMR says

That's sad since a very high percentage of the kids graduating from stuy end up doing a science based major at a place like Stony Brook.

What's the deal with SUNY Stony Brook? I know there's a lot of Foreign Profs there that don't speak English.

MMR says

So you are saying that one need not actually complete high school but rather take the comparable courses at a community college and transfer into London's online program? If one were headed on the path to the London online program, how would the MIT courses or UIUC courses be used? I truly wish I had known someone like you and had this level of guidance when I was a teenager. I think I would have achieved a lot more.

Me too. I spent my Senior Year taking Shop classes just to fill the schedule. I didn't know, and the dumbass Guidance Counselor didn't mention, that I could have taken Comm College Courses for free. All I needed was a P/E and English Credit by the end of my Junior Year. Could have banged out English Comp 101 and taken a Swim Class, along with 4-5 other courses and gone in to school bypassing my Freshman Year.

Preach on, Rin.

By the way, U of L has individual courses they'll apply to a degree if you pass. Great for a 16-17 year old to take Accounting or Econ 101. Also useful if your education has been unorthodox as a means of gaining admittance.

If you can learn it remotely, using video lectures and textbooks, you can learn almost anything.

thunderlips11 says

By the way, U of L has individual courses they'll apply to a degree if you pass. Great for a 16-17 year old to take Accounting or Econ 101. Also useful if your education has been unorthodox as a means of gaining admittance.

If you can learn it remotely, using video lectures and textbooks, you can learn almost anything.

I think the only problem with London online is that it's not that accommodating for kids.

On the other foot, they have no problems, assessing American university coursework, much like their own, either in Britain or the Commonwealth.

So to do that special student -- > to full-time student path at UoL, you're already talking about a 17-18 year old.

On the other hand, an American can get Precalculus, Calculus I to III, Statistics, Micro and Macroeconomics, all done, by the age of 16, using free online courses plus community or local state colleges to verify the credentials. Basically, you first learn the material online but then, take the community college course to get the 'A' and the academic credit.

By UoL's standard, any 3.8 is an 'A' average, from any American university.

thunderlips11 says

Rin, what's the deal with A and O levels, do you have a idea about that?

It's the sort of former British Empire weighted average of the American AP/CLEP exams and the national Olympiads but for the UK and the members of their Commonwealth nations.

There's so much debate going on, on whether or not the system works or not, makes it a wasteful process for an American to sieve through.

As an applicant from another American college, whether it's a community college or a state univ, none of that stuff matters once the GED is in place. At that point in time, if you've got the GPA from an American college, you've got it.

thunderlips11 says

Great for a 16-17 year old to take Accounting or Econ 101

Also, I wouldn't worry so much about accounting vs let's say econometrics or applied math.

After the UoL experience, an American may still need to get a part-time MS in Accounting, stateside, to sit for the CPA exam in America. The purpose of London is to one, fulfill the need for a bachelor's degree, and two, a bachelor's degree which looks good when one later segues into careers in finance or management consulting, where they like ppl with brand name diplomas on their roster.

And in my poo-poo on the SUNYs, CUNYs, or UConns, it's ok to get a postgraduate MS in Accounting from those places, just for the CPA thing, but then, not emphasize that on the resume. So when one later applies for a job at a financial services company, the resume looks like this ...

1) Experience:

ABC Inc, doing research analysis on weakened currency pairings

2) Education:

B.S. Economics/Math, London University, London School of Economics program, First Class Honours

Postgraduate training in Accounting, Univ of Connecticut, received masters degree certification

So you see, in my above example, in place of looking like some state univ loser, the person looks like a global type, with some localized professional credentials.

The above looks so much better than the following Joe Loser who'd attended a Magnet high school ...

1) Experience:

ABC Inc, doing research analysis on weakened currency pairings

2) Education:

H.S. Diploma, Bronx High School of Science, won spelling bee in senior year

B.S. Electronics Engineering, Univ of Connecticut, Summa Cum Laude

M.S. Accounting, Univ of Connecticut

The Magnet guy would most likely get the 'loser' vs the 'worldly' label.

Is it me, or is this one of the few threads where for the most part, everyone agrees with me?

Ironman says

Rin says

Is it me, or is this one of the few threads where for the most part, everyone agrees with me?

Yep, all the two or three people participating have agreed with you. It must be a new record!!

Anyone trolling this topic would argue things like ... it's "what you learn which counts" and a bunch of other feel good malarkey of the 80s and 90s, where they would tout the socialization value of high school and the fact that Jack Welsh had attended a state college, instead of MIT or CalTech.

Now, it's more clear that places like management consulting and financial services are much more about how one *looks* vs what's under the hood.

I do agree. I live 2 blocks from a feeder school where 30% of the kids go to Princeton. These kids pick up a $150 restaurant tab with their allowance. After listening to their conversations for about 2 minutes, I know my asian students would bury them intellectually and academically. But these privileged kids will be the ones graduating from an Ivy in 4 to 5 years and commanding 6 figure salaries at age 22. It's inevitable.

The scary part is the ones that go Poli Sci/Int Relations will be running the country.

Rin says

And in my poo-poo on the SUNYs, CUNYs, or UConns, it's ok to get a postgraduate MS in Accounting from those places, just for the CPA thing, but then, not emphasize that on the resume. So when one later applies for a job at a financial services company, the resume looks like this ...

Jesus, I know SUNY is/was a great STEM School. Another sign of incredible inequity in our society.