patrick.net

No but if you beat their ass like Chavez, his family and his union thugs did that works:

http://barbwire.com/2014/04/10/real-cesar-chavez/

However, by far the darkest side of the UFW was its treatment of undocumented workers whom the UFW considered a threat to their jobs. In the mid 1980s, Chavez’s brother, Manual, headed up an effort to attack illegal workers crossing the border in Arizona. As reported by the liberal Village Voice, UFW thugs actually patrolled an border area they called “the Wet Line” looking for illegal aliens to beat up. As former Yuma County sheriff Travis Yancey stated, “they’d catch any ‘wet’ coming through and beat the hell out of them.” Former UFW staff member Gus Gutierrez said that Manual’s goons “just went apes … they just went wild.”

No, but it slows them the fuck down. That's basically the idea behind fences, doors, etc.

We need Hungarians to design and build the fence.

Straw Man says

No, but it slows them the fuck down.

Slows them down enough to make them easier to shoot.

just_passing_through says

However, by far the darkest side of the UFW was its treatment of undocumented workers whom the UFW considered a threat to their jobs. In the mid 1980s, Chavez’s brother, Manual, headed up an effort to attack illegal workers crossing the border in Arizona. As reported by the liberal Village Voice, UFW thugs actually patrolled an border area they called “the Wet Line” looking for illegal aliens to beat up. As former Yuma County sheriff Travis Yancey stated, “they’d catch any ‘wet’ coming through and beat the hell out of them.” Former UFW staff member Gus Gutierrez said that Manual’s goons “just went apes … they just went wild.”

LOL. I find this very amusing. Greedy union thugs who demand a "living wage" don't want Mexicans from making a "living wage"
I would support hard working non criminal Mexicans making a few bucks to feed their families in Mexico, against greedy Union thugs anytime. At least I get cheap gardening....what do I get from the union thugs?

It's the hypocrisy that gets me.

I don't have a problem with migrant workers from Mexico. They used to come legally and were not treated humanly in at least some cases. Lined up and coated in pesticides. But that's the way to do it - legally 2.0. Mutually beneficial. Not this random crap.

So many legal foreigners I know have to go through so much more BS at so much more expense.

It weakens us.

just_passing_through says

It weakens us.

It doesn't weaken the corporations making millions in profits exploiting them.

Strategist says

LOL. I find this very amusing. Greedy union thugs who demand a "living wage"

I find it amusing that you think Americans trying to earn a wage that can support a family are "greedy". But you seem to have no problem with people making tens of million a year while they pay the people that actually do the work $10/hour. Tell me again--which one is "greedy"?

Strategist says

At least I get cheap gardening....

That says it all from a certified card carrying member of the it's all about me generation.

Ironman says

We know which one is the whiner.... YOU...

Do you ever stop crying about income redistribution?? Go start your own company and take the risks and you can make the big bucks instead of being a cubicle slave like you are now!

How many times are we going to have this same stupid discussion? I'm not complaining that I don't make enough--I do fine. I'm commenting on the idiocy of someone bitching about a guy trying to make a good living. Why in the world would Strat be mad at someone for trying to make as much as he can instead of that same money going into the pockets of billionaires? Strat has swallowed the propaganda from the Koch bros. They are laughing at him. And you.

Ironman says

Probably forever... Since you, being the socialist that you are, keep bringing up the same whining about income redistribution and certain people not getting "theirs" while CEOs make all the big bucks...

Nope--not a socialist--just someone educated enough to understand that an economy cannot function well when inequality reaches current levels. You'll see monetary velocity decrease, interest rates decrease, unemployment increase, debt levels increase, and more and deeper recessions.

All of which, not surprisingly (to me at least), is happening.

tatupu70 says

Strategist says

LOL. I find this very amusing. Greedy union thugs who demand a "living wage"

I find it amusing that you think Americans trying to earn a wage that can support a family are "greedy". But you seem to have no problem with people making tens of million a year while they pay the people that actually do the work $10/hour. Tell me again--which one is "greedy"?

We are all greedy to a certain extent because humans were built that way.
The only fair compensation each one of us deserves, can only be based on our contribution to the end product, as dictated by free markets. Unions just suck up more based on "living wage" excuses.
Let me ask you....do you think it's fair for Kobe to get $100,000 for a 3 hour game, while the short guy who mops up his sweat gets close to minimum?

Let me know if and when you want to have an adult conversation.

tatupu70 says

Nope--not a socialist--just someone educated enough to understand that an economy cannot function well when inequality reaches current levels. You'll see monetary velocity decrease, interest rates decrease, unemployment increase, debt levels increase, and more and deeper recessions.

All of which, not surprisingly (to me at least), is happening.

It's all a myth.
You know what real inequality is? It's a garbage collector making $20.00 per month in Cuba, vs a garbage collector making $3,000 a month in the US. They do the same messy work, but one has benefited from the trickle down thanks to those with skills making more money, while the other one gets pissed on by politicians and revolutionaries who think they have a better system.

bob2356 says

It doesn't weaken the corporations making millions in profits exploiting them.

That says it all from a certified card carrying member of the Anti America Club.

Strategist says

You know what real inequality is? It's a garbage collector making $20.00 per month in Cuba, vs a garbage collector making $3,000 a month in the US. They do the same messy work, but one has benefited from the trickle down thanks to those with skills making more money, while the other one gets pissed on by politicians and revolutionaries who think they have a better system.

Most of it's 'trickled' up as a quick look at changes in the ratio of CEO pay to employees will tell you. 331 times more on average in 2013. Their pay has increased an inflation-adjusted 1000% since 1978. Inflation-adjusted. That compares with an increase of 10.9% for the average worker. But hey, I guess you must be a socialist if you look at those figures and question whether that's really the best thing for society as a whole.

Ironman says

As soon as Tat (and his other socialists) learn that, the better they will do and complain less.

They are "greedy" No matter how much more they get, they will want more and more of a "living wage"
It's only fair that 17 year olds make enough to......

Strategist says

They are "greedy" No matter how much more they get, they will want more and more of a "living wage"

It's only fair that 17 year olds make enough to......

So it's being greedy wanting a living wage, but perfectly fine for CEOs to get a 1000% inflation-adjusted increase since 1978?

Strategist says

You know what real inequality is? It's a garbage collector making $20.00 per month in Cuba, vs a garbage collector making $3,000 a month in the US. They do the same messy work, but one has benefited from the trickle down thanks to those with skills making more money, while the other one gets pissed on by politicians and revolutionaries who think they have a better system.

That has nothing to do with the topic at hand. We're not comparing Cuba to the US.

Bigsby says

Strategist says

You know what real inequality is? It's a garbage collector making $20.00 per month in Cuba, vs a garbage collector making $3,000 a month in the US. They do the same messy work, but one has benefited from the trickle down thanks to those with skills making more money, while the other one gets pissed on by politicians and revolutionaries who think they have a better system.

Most of it's 'trickled' up as a quick look at changes in the ratio of CEO pay to employees will tell you. 331 times more on average in 2013. Their pay has increased an inflation-adjusted 1000% since 1978. Inflation-adjusted. That compares with an increase of 10.9% for the average worker. But hey, I guess you must be a socialist if you look at those figures and question whether that's really the best thing for society as a whole.

Maybe some CEO's don't deserve their pay packages. I don't think NBA players deserve $50 million contracts, nor do Heavy weight boxers deserve $8 million in 20 minutes even for losing. But it's not your money, so why care? They will end up paying more tax eventually, which will trickle down to the masses.
I care more about the pensions that public employees don't deserve, but I still have to pay for, while they don't pay for my retirement.

Ironman says

And that's exactly what Tat doesn't get... he thinks everyone should be "given" more instead of "earning" more, and to accomplish that, we need to take from the 1%ers...

To get a fair or higher compensation you need to be a BIGGER asset to the operation, not a drag on the system. As soon as Tat (and his other socialists) learn that, the better they will do and complain less.

No--I get it. The thing is-you don't get what you "earn", you get what you can bargain for. The biggest assets to the organization don't earn more for themselves--they just line the pockets of the CEO and owners more. That's what you don't get.

Strategist says

They are "greedy" No matter how much more they get, they will want more and more of a "living wage"

It's only fair that 17 year olds make enough to......

That's capitalism. Do you not want to earn more?? What the f*&k is wrong with you?? The question is--do you think the guys who actually perform the service and make the products are less valuable than the guy sitting in a boardroom somewhere? 1000 times less valuable?

Strategist says

Maybe some CEO's don't deserve their pay packages. I don't think NBA players deserve $50 million contracts, nor do Heavy weight boxers deserve $8 million in 20 minutes even for losing. But it's not your money, so why care?

Because it leads to a crappy economy, high unemployment, high debt, etc. A place where my children will have a harder and harder time finding a job. That's why I care.

The question is--why DON'T you care??

Ironman says

You can't even start to bargain if you don't contribute a better benefit to the company

Yep--the problem is that you can't start to bargain even if you do these days. There are too many people fighting for too few jobs. And I think I may have mentioned why this is before...

Ironman says

They absolutely certainly do if they can display to upper management their value and can bargain accordingly... I know that works, I did it my whole career!!

I didn't think checkers at Walmart had much bargaining power. Maybe you were the exception.

Ironman says

No, I GET it, I ran my own business for a long time. That's why I keep telling you, if you don't like how you're being compensated as a wage slave employee, stop complaining and start your own company and see how much you'll think you're worth then, when you have to deal with all the day to day bullshit..

I love how the crybabies complain about CEO's but they have never been on that side of the table, are clueless and don't have the balls to step up and deal with it from that side.

Unfortunately, the world doesn't work that way. I don't think it's practical for the US to have 200 million small business owners. We need to find a way for average working Joes to make a reasonable living too.

Ironman says

Not to the socialists like you... It's much easier to "take" from someone else who's worked long and hard to earn it, versus earning it yourself

We're talking about people in a union working hard every day. I'm not advocating welfare--just finding a way to ensure that guys who work hard aren't exploited by large corporations.

Strategist says

But it's not your money, so why care? They will end up paying more tax eventually, which will trickle down to the masses.

Their pay doesn't come from thin air, does it? You and I are paying for their salaries. And it doesn't trickle down. That is the whole point. That is why the middle class has been gutted, wages have been stagnant or have fallen, and the rich have become even richer. The money has flowed upwards rather than trickled down.
Strategist says

I care more about the pensions that public employees don't deserve, but I still have to pay for, while they don't pay for my retirement.

And plenty of them do deserve it having worked difficult, and in some cases dangerous jobs. Rather the average hard working individual gets a reasonable pension than the richest in society continue to get tax breaks or even tax cuts despite getting ever richer. They should have to pay more than they are because they've gained more than their fair share over the last few decades.

Ever since Reagan Crushed the Unions, the standard of living for Americans has skyrocketed!

Ever since we allowed unskilled mass immigration, the bottom 50% are wallowing in pay increases and unlimited jobs created by the immigrants and their trickle-down employers!

Once we crush the public sector Unions and eliminate all restrictions on illegal immigrants, the economy will skyrocket and the bottom 90% will really be on Easy Street!

Bigsby says

Most of it's 'trickled' up as a quick look at changes in the ratio of CEO pay to employees will tell you. 331 times more on average in 2013.

Then why don't you become a CEO??? Or some other skill, trade or talent that they will pay you for? You know how much a CEO makes? He makes as much as they will pay him (or her). He asks for a level of pay, they pay him or offer him some other sum, he accepts it or he doesn't and quits. Companies look at what other CEO's in other companies DO for those companies (like make profits) and offer that CEO a large wage to get him away from his old company to come work for them - that's called a talent.

So what is stopping you? Get your MBA, start your own business, make it a success, sell it for an obscene amount of money, get hired by some other company for a large sum of money to help make their business profitable. See how simple it is?

Would you accept $100,000 a day for your services if someone offered? What if someone else (who wanted you more) offered you $200,000 a day? Would you take it? Your argument has no merit, it has no substance. Go join your buddy in Seattle who made everyone's pay $70K a year, regardless of if you are answering emails all day or bringing in large budget clients.

tatupu70 says

We're talking about people in a union working hard every day. I'm not advocating welfare--just finding a way to ensure that guys who work hard aren't exploited by large corporations.

If the large corporations don't put up the bucks, there is no HARD WORK to be had. Corporations don't put up money unless there is a good chance to make some money on the project/business. You don't make sense.

You are worth what someone offers and what you accept. LOOK, I deal with union and non-union workers every day. If a union carpenter is charging (per union contract) $20 an hour to pound nails and I can get a non-union man to do it for $15 an hour, I want/need to make money, I'll hire the non-union guy. If he does crap work, I get rid of him and get another. If all $15 an hour people are crap, I raise the price to $17 an hour in an effort to get better help. If no one will work for $15 an hour, I have to raise it to $17 an hour just to get people to apply. It's bargaining - this is what I want to pay, if no one will take the job, or if those who take it suck, I raise the rate. On the other side, if someone offers me $15 an hour for a job, I am free to turn it down. Maybe they find someone at that wage but the work, the person suck. If he comes back to me and asks how much I want, I'll undercut the union and ask for $19 an hour. He takes it or he doesn't. You don't like the wage or the job - you quit, it's really quite simple.

Strategist says

bob2356 says

It doesn't weaken the corporations making millions in profits exploiting them.

That says it all from a certified card carrying member of the Anti America Club.

Corporations obeying the law is anti america? I thought conservatives were big on law and order. Patriot act and all that. What else do you consider anti america in your bizzaro world?

Ironman says

"Working hard" and unions don't even belong in the same sentence or paragraph...

Union workers are the BIGGEST slugs in the workforce.. They're the bottom of the 80% are the biggest "takers" of all!!

Awesome. Why don't you go down to your local laborers union hall, tag along with them for a few days and see what you think. Who am I kidding, you wouldn't last 20 minutes before you'd be calling for your Mommy.

mmmarvel says

If the large corporations don't put up the bucks, there is no HARD WORK to be had. Corporations don't put up money unless there is a good chance to make some money on the project/business. You don't make sense.

Did corporations put up money in the 50s and 60s when workers made a living wage? Didn't seem that was a problem then.

mmmarvel says

You are worth what someone offers and what you accept

So, you're OK with the contined exploitation of the US workers by large corporations. What happens when there are many, many people competing for your job and suddenly you're worth a lot less?

Ironman says

Unfortunately, the socialists here will never understand any parts of those two posts. They just "expect" to be paid because they're "entitled" to get paid, doesn't matter if they provide any value to the employer. Being valuable isn't important to them, just give me my damn paycheck!!

I get that you are OK with exploitation of workers. But I also get that it becomes a race to the bottom and that it is extremely harmful to the overall economy.

Something you clearly don't understand.

Ironman says

I'd fall asleep only working 2 or 3 hours a day like they do... totally boring, and non-productive...

lol--you'd be passed out in 2-3 hours probably. You would NEVER make it through 1 day. That much I can guarantee.

I don't understand how you guys can't get this. When people can't make a decent wage, they can't afford to buy anything. When nobody can afford to buy anything, there is no reason to produce anything. When there's no need to produce anything, people get laid off. When people get laid off, they have even less money to spend. Lather, rinse, repeat.

Stop focusing on my posts as if I'm complaining because I don't make enough money. Look at the big picture. That's what i'm talking about.

Ironman says

Since you're a "taker", you'll NEVER understand how to make yourself valuable to your employer, and make more money... You'll whine and cry about income inequality until the day they put you in a pine box...

So sad....

Iron--why do you continue this nonsense.. You know where I lived when I was in NJ. It sure as hell wasn't in Ocean county.

Ironman says

The big picture is that ANY employee is responsible for their level of income. It's in THEIR hands, not the employers hands...

You don't get that and just expect employers to shell out more money, just because....

Tell you what, next time you go to the grocery store and your bill is $100., give the store $200., just because....

Nope--that's the small picture. Try again.

tatupu70 says

That's capitalism. Do you not want to earn more?? What the f*&k is wrong with you?? The question is--do you think the guys who actually perform the service and make the products are less valuable than the guy sitting in a boardroom somewhere? 1000 times less valuable?

Yes I do. They are worth less because they don't have the same skills. Ask yourself ....why would a company even want to pay someone a 1000 times more than the average worker? Some of the 18 year old brats are not worth $10.00. I've seen how they work. I would not even pay them 10 cents an hour. They come to work when they feel like, freak looking skinheads who can't even spell their names. If they were my slaves, I would give them their freedom just to get rid of them.

Bigsby says

Their pay doesn't come from thin air, does it? You and I are paying for their salaries. And it doesn't trickle down. That is the whole point. That is why the middle class has been gutted, wages have been stagnant or have fallen, and the rich have become even richer. The money has flowed upwards rather than trickled down.

Don't believe those myths. If nothing trickled down, the garbage man would have the same standard of living as a Sudanese who does the exact same work.

Bigsby says

And plenty of them do deserve it having worked difficult, and in some cases dangerous jobs.

Those who deserve it can have it. The rest don't. They work in slow motion, and snore in fast motion right on their desk.

Bigsby says

Rather the average hard working individual gets a reasonable pension than the richest in society continue to get tax breaks or even tax cuts despite getting ever richer.

Not a reason for me to pay their pensions when they don't pay mine.

Strategist says

Don't believe those myths. If nothing trickled down, the garbage man would have the same standard of living as a Sudanese who does the exact same work.

It's not a myth. The myth is that the policies introduced with Thatcherism/Reaganomics have done what they claimed they would do. They haven't. They have, however, enriched a small minority at the expense of everyone else.

Strategist says

Those who deserve it can have it. The rest don't. They work in slow motion, and snore in fast motion right on their desk.

Strange that that approach from you doesn't seem to apply to those in the private sector.

Strategist says

Not a reason for me to pay their pensions when they don't pay mine.

Fine, then stop paying taxes and see where that gets you and your country.

Strategist says

Yes I do. They are worth less because they don't have the same skills. Ask yourself ....why would a company even want to pay someone a 1000 times more than the average worker? Some of the 18 year old brats are not worth $10.00. I've seen how they work. I would not even pay them 10 cents an hour. They come to work when they feel like, freak looking skinheads who can't even spell their names. If they were my slaves, I would give them their freedom just to get rid of them.

They don't pay CEOs that kind of money in any other country (nowhere near the same), and they didn't used to do it America. Ask yourself why that is and why it changed.