patrick.net

if you're trying to say christianity is inherently even remotely as violent as islam, you're failing.

I don't think he failed. He was comparing behavior of the most extreme Muslims today, to the crusades and Inquisition. Just because true Christianity doesn't sanction atrocities and genocide, doesn't mean that plenty of such behavior hasn't been justified by Christianity. How do you think most of the people that went along with the holocaust justified it, if not by the fact that those killed were Jews (Christian version of infidels in some places and times) ? How do you think Americans slept at night while genocide of native Americans was occurring ? OF course it was the knowledge that they were primitive heathens, non Christians, and therefore subhuman that made it okay,or at least easier to live with.

I don't believe that true Islam sanctions such behavior either. Although like our bible, slavery is advocated and in war times all kinds of behaviors are sanctioned, and it is in part a plan for expanding the religion. Their motive is the expansion of Islam, much like the motive of the crusades was the expansion of Catholicism.

We've evolved past that behavior and feel that we're better than that now, and in fact we are. Although the fundamentalist Christians are kind of an echo of those times. Fundamentalist Muslims are a worse kind of echo of medieval insanity.

The question is how do you keep it's (the extremist radicals) growth in check or help it gradually die off.

Fear and hate might not be the best answer. And since you brought it up.

jesus's best known saying: love your neighbor as your self

Maybe rather than citing this as proof that "our religion is better than theirs is," we could think of how we might put that into practice in this situation.

What would Jesus do ?

marcus says

I don't believe that true Islam sanctions such behavior either

I do.

marcus says

We've evolved past that behavior

But they haven't. We are two entirely different cultures, their's still in the 13th century or some ancient, barbaric one at least. They will buy Toyota pickups all day long and use the latest electronic equipment, but their hearts and minds are still in the ancient days of stoning people for sexual misconduct and blood oaths and holding grudges for hundreds of years as was common in what we call Biblical times which date back probably 3,000 years in the Old Testament since Christianity is about 2,000 years old. As bad as communism and naziism were, they existed within a Western context that we can understand--one the justification for hatred based on race (naziism), the other justification for hatred based on class. There was nothing religious about either and neither ones would have killed themselves in support of their ideology as Muslims do.

marcus says

I don't believe that true Islam sanctions such behavior either.

wow, that's just so spectacularly wrong, it's hard to know where to start.

i don't need to start. you need to start reading about islam so you know what you're talking about.

YOU need to start reading about islam so you know what you're talking about.

I would say the same about you.

The most you can claim is that out of the billions of peace loving Muslims in the world, too many are sympathetic with those that would revert to medieval practices. YOu're gonna say, yeah, b-b-b-ut our 3 million Islamic folk are different than them. Etc. I've read plenty.

If you look really hard on the internet, you can even find how several of the most popular quotes from the Koran justifying violence against infidels are taken out of context.

That is if YOU feel like educating YOURSELF.

But I'll acknowledge just like our bible, there's a bunch of fucked up stuff in the Koran. So ? I'll also agree that our religious tradition is better than theirs..

Look, I'm not defending it ? Who are you Dan ? Are you going to intentionally miss my point because you found one sentence you can jump on ?

marcus says

The question is how do you keep it's (the extremist radicals) growth in check or help it gradually die off.

Fear and hate might not be the best answer. And since you brought it up.

jesus's best known saying: love your neighbor as your self

Maybe rather than citing this as proof that "our religion is better than theirs is," we could think of how we might put that into practice in this situation.

What would Jesus do ?

I notice that instead of responding to this, Patrick wants to focus on how I need to educate myself.

marcus says

The question is how do you keep it's (the extremist radicals) growth in check or help it gradually die off.

Fear and hate might not be the best answer. And since you brought it up.

jesus's best known saying: love your neighbor as your self

Maybe rather than citing this as proof that "our religion is better than theirs is," we could think of how we might put that into practice in this situation.

What would Jesus do ?

islam really is inherently violently intolerant in a way that christianity is not.

It was the last version of Monotheism and it certainly was engineered to plug all theological holes and create a book very useful binding together a raiding/trading Arabic society to conquer the world.

Quran (8:39) - "And fight with them until there is no more fitna (disorder, unbelief) and religion should be only for Allah"

In the OT Yahweh's dumb rules are only binding on Jews and everybody else can do whatever they want. In Christianity, Jesus comes when he comes, but you gotta tell everybody about it. In Islam, Islamists MUST destroy all unbelief to bring about heaven on Earth.

There's really not a lot of wiggle room, there's about 100 clear passages about death and, explicitly, terror and torture, to disbelievers, the obligation of Jihad (which has ALWAYS been understood as warfare since Mohammed himself was alive) including not only pagans but Monotheists who refuse to be Dhimmis.

Strategist says

Every time we point out sick Islamic practices, some one comments about bad things Christians did 500 years ago.

The point is not that Christianity did those things, it's that they did them and then they stopped, usually within 2-3 generations. Cultural change and enlightenment, once started, can occur in a flash.

Patrick believes that (A) all Muslims nurture violent Muslims, and (B) violent Muslims will continue to be violent for generations, even those who are being removed from a Thar culture of clan-based feuding, extreme violence to repay personal insults, and utter subjugation of women.

This is both untrue, and a tool for the real enemies we face - wealthy Christian, Muslim and Hindu oligarchs - to divert us from solving the greatest threat to our existence, which is the destruction of our environment.

If a raghead becomes a problem, you can waste him before he kills too many people. Guns ain't gonna fix what the Koch Bros are doing to us.

The idea that ignorant fanatics are an existential threat to Europe or the United States is beyond laughable. It's like a stupidity test.

But some middle-aged men, as they watch their bodies deteriorate, tend to confuse that with the deterioration of the social order and the world at large. It may be that certain fear centers in the brain become more dominant in some of us as we age. For whatever reason, many middle-aged and elderly people need to believe that there are "others" - groups of outsiders - who will destroy the world that they have known. This was behind much of the warblogger activity in 2002-2005, and Patrick has decided to join the Keyboard Kommandos - fighting Islam - a dozen years after the fact.

Having seen the "fruits" of their labors last time around, I'm gonna call a spade a spade.

Patrick, you're full of shit.

marcus says

I don't believe that true Islam sanctions such behavior either.

wow, that's just so spectacularly wrong, it's hard to know where to start.

SO all of the Islamic clerics that have spoken out saying that these recent atrocities are not the acts of true Muslims are lying ? DO they not believe what they are saying, just as much as you believe that Jesus is so much more awesome than Mohammed ?

marcus says

What would Jesus do ?

jesus would die all over again, because they would kill him when he told them that mohammed was not actually a prophet. and they would kill him exactly because that's what mohammed himself would do.

but jesus would die in a very compassionate loving way, with perhaps a small chance of convincing them of the truth.

whereas i myself just blurt out the truth and get annoyed at the people who have not been doing their homework.

HydroCabron says

Having seen the "fruits" of their labors last time around, I'm gonna call a spade a spade.

you haven't been doing your homework either.

i never called for bombing or shooting. where did you get that idea?

i just call for doing your homework and telling the truth about islam.

marcus says

SO all of the Islamic clerics that have spoken out saying that these recent atrocities are not the acts of true Muslims are lying ?

yes, in fact they are lying. you'd know that if you did a bit of reading.

thunderlips11 says

There's really not a lot of wiggle room,

Wtf ?

Here are 7 different translations of your selected verse 8:39

http://corpus.quran.com/translation.jsp?chapter=8&verse=39

IT's not wiggle room. It's more like room for a earthquake of level 8 on the richtor scale.

marcus says

Here are 7 different translations of your selected verse 8:39

http://corpus.quran.com/translation.jsp?chapter=8&verse=39

excellent! a tiny bit of critical thought! a glimmer of hope. please please continue.

excellent! a tiny bit of critical thought!

Who's the arrogant prick here ?

marcus says

Who's the arrogant prick here ?

bingo.

Great, which one of these from YOUR link applies?

Sahih International: And fight them until there is no fitnah and [until] the religion, all of it, is for Allah. And if they cease - then indeed, Allah is Seeing of what they do.

Pickthall: And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is all for Allah. But if they cease, then lo! Allah is Seer of what they do.

Yusuf Ali: And fight them on until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah altogether and everywhere; but if they cease, verily Allah doth see all that they do.

Shakir: And fight with them until there is no more persecution and religion should be only for Allah; but if they desist, then surely Allah sees what they do.

Muhammad Sarwar: Fight them so that idolatry will not exist any more and God's religion will stand supreme. If theygive up the idols), God will be Well Aware of what they do.

Mohsin Khan: And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and polytheism: i.e. worshipping others besides Allah) and the religion (worship) will all be for Allah Alone [in the whole of the world]. But if they cease (worshipping others besides Allah), then certainly, Allah is All-Seer of what they do.

Arberry: Fight them, till there is no persecution and the religion is God's entirely; then if they give over, surely God sees the things they do;

What happens when Buddhists and Hindus and Norse Pagans and Catholic Icon Lovers continue in their Idol Worship? A loving verbal reprimand from the local Imam?
Don't be naive.

What does "fight" even mean to most Muslims reguarding this ?

I'll refer to an expert:

but almost all Muslims understand this verse to mean that they can fight to end oppression as well as to establish conditions where they can freely worship God. This is further explained by Hadith where it says that if you see evil, stop it by hand; if you cannot stop it by hand, stop it by your tongue; and if you cannot do that either, then consider that to be evil in your heart. And if you go back to verse 8:34 where kuffar are warned to stop preventing Muslims from performing pilgrimage, the latter part of the verse “and religion is for Allah alone,” makes perfect sense_ the idea being that in al-Masjid al-Haram only God is to be worshipped [the idea being explicitly stated in verse 2:191 which sets the stage for verse 2:193, which is identical to verse 8:39].

https://controversialislam.wordpress.com/quran-verse-839/

By the way, it doesn't take critical thinking to make a simple observation that someone is reacting from a place of fear, ignorance and hatred. I guess putting together a solid proof of that that nobody could question would require some work, but not much critical thinking.

marcus says

SO all of the Islamic clerics that have spoken out saying that these recent atrocities are not the acts of true Muslims are lying ?

yes, in fact they are lying. you'd know that if you did a bit of reading.

Wow. So you don't think there are any Islamic clerics that can say with sincerity and honesty that Islam is a religion of peace. Meaning that their belief system and that what they preach is peace and that they sincerely despise the people that commit violence in the name of Allah.

Remember, before you answer, you're supposedly the one doing the critical thinking here and plenty of reading on this subject. You're the authority here.

But remember, Chick-Filet and the Gay Refusenik Cake Bakers, are even worse.

Allah honored women by instituting the correct beating of the women, he prohibited the beating of them in the face unless they are made ugly... only beat her at chest level... not poke her in the eye...

The people coming now are not the 3 generations-in-the-British-Service Pakistani MDs, they are ruffian barbarian Rural Hicks from the Time before Time These Hicks make the most toothless Methhead from Appalachia look like Rumpole at high Tea.

Here, while you think about your answer.

http://www.beliefnet.com/columnists/commonwordcommonlord/2014/08/think-muslims-havent-condemned-isis-think-again.html

http://www.dailysabah.com/europe/2015/11/14/muslim-clerics-defy-isis-condemn-paris-terror-attacks

By the way, do you have the critical thinking skills to understand how much damage events such as those in Paris on Friday do to their religion ? THey can not believe in such acts. They have to hate such acts. Only the most fringe Islamic cleric could ever condone such insanity or think it is what Islam is supposed to be.

marcus says

So you don't think there are any Islamic clerics that can say with sincerity and honesty that Islam is a religion of peace. Meaning that their belief system and that what they preach is peace and that they sincerely despise the people that commit violence in the name of Allah.

yup, there are zero islamic clerics who can say with honesty that islam is a religion of peace.

it is in fact the religion of war, which divides the world into conquered and unconquered territory. dar al-harb etc.

now, people do have almost unlimited capacity for self-deception when truth is painful, so the clerics may be sincere in a limited way. meaning that they are telling bits of the truth, the little bits that make them feel better, and that reassure weak-minded westerners, but not anything close to the whole truth. they just aren't going to go there, because it's not in their interest.

thunderlips11 says

But remember, Chick-Filet and the Gay Refusenik Cake Bakers, are even worse.

I'm not arguing that it's not a fucked up religion. But good to know you're getting good at using the internet. We've all seen this shit a hundred times.

I'll have to assume that you and Patrick think the best thing for Islamic women is if we close ourselves off from their world entirely, and definitely don't take any of their Syrian refugees in where they can live an American life and set an example to their medieval cousins back in the old country.

it is in fact the religion of war, which divides the world into conquered and unconquered territory

"Christian countries" already won the war. But a minority in the Islamic world seem to want to contest the result.

We're still violent, but it can't be directly tied to religion, so you know, that's entirely different.

marcus says

I'll have to assume that you and Patrick think the best thing for Islamic women is if we close ourselves off from their world entirely, and definitely don't take any of their Syrian refugees in where they can live an American life and set an example to their medieval cousins back in the old country.

Estimates have the numbers of migrants by gender and age being overwhelmingly young male, 75%.

What we should do is take the women and children out and let the men stay, but that won't happen for the same reason that Honor Killings happen.

Few Arab men will let their women leave without them. First of all, they know what other Arab Men in the migrant bands and camps will do to unaccompanied women. Second, they don't want their Women getting "Westtoxified". Third, they don't want them discovering German/Swedish Divorce Laws.

The BBC had a story about Shari'a "Arbitrators" in the UK. Most Muslim Immigrant women didn't know they had civil options for complaints about abuse or filing for divorce, and British Islamic Groups and Media encouraged only the use of Shari'a "Arbitrators" which they call "Courts". In fact, there was a scandal with Muslim Birmingham Faith Schools telling schoolgirls that using British Courts was Haram (forbidden).

In the Gulf States, males receive Text Messages when their wife crosses international borders when their passport is scanned - the government runs the program.

Here is the BBC Special.

My dirty whore daughter is close to dying? Tell Amal I am happy... that is what she needs...

it is in fact the religion of war, which divides the world into conquered and unconquered territory. dar al-harb etc

In my world, the Isil caliphate is an exception not the rule.

But sure elsewhere in the world their religion is often tied to government more than in the west. But for the most part, borders have long been established. But they do use population growth to their advantage, much like Catholics did at one time. I guess still do in a few places.

I have a suspicion that in the distant future, Isil or Isis will be seen (historically) as pawns in some game for resources between the great powers of the world. But yes, they are crazy. Maybe if you had been born in to some God forsaken land, and not educated, and with little opportunity to prosper, you might be convinced to join those crazy guys that get all the women too. Unless you preferred the quiet life of being a goat herder instead.

i really admire the fundamentalists more and more. they speak so perfectly clearly about islam. they do not apologize. they do not mince words. and they smile when explaining it.

i never said the west was so wonderful. i just said islam is pretty much the opposite of what we are taught it is, or what our president says it is. our teachers and our president are lying. and lots of westerners are happy to lie to themselves because it makes them feel a tiny bit safer.

but after you get a pretty good consistent picture of the nature of islam, and you see it in practice over and over and over, all around the world, you really don't want more islam in the US.

you know, those dead people in paris are probably not even buried yet.

i just said islam is pretty much the opposite of what we are taught it is, or what our president says it is. our teachers and our president are lying. and lots of westerners are happy to lie to themselves because it makes them feel a tiny bit safer

I feel like I've been taught very clearly the negative side. In fact between the Taliban, Al-quada, Isis, and most of what I hear about the Saudis, and how they all believe that Isreal has to be destroyed. Rapes, stoning, brothers killing sisters because they want to use facebook ? My god, the negatives I hear and have been taught outweigh any poitives 100 to 1. Remember 9-11. How about this weekend ?

The dimbulb that reads nothing and knows nothing about Islam at all other than what they have seen in current events and on the internet is going to think Islam is hell/Satan on earth.

What the fuck are you talking about Patrick ?

i just said islam is pretty much the opposite of what we are taught it is, or what our president says it is. our teachers and our president are lying. and lots of westerners are happy to lie to themselves because it makes them feel a tiny bit safer.

The media lies it's ass off, but I'd say more for fear.

Manspreading
Yellowcake
All Cultures are equal.
AIDS is going to kill half the population by 2001.
Free Trade will create millions of high tech high paying jobs of the future.
There is a dire shortage of STEM Graduates.
There's a War on Christmas.
Women are paid less than men.
Video games cause Violence.
Video games cause Rape.
Day Care operators are Satan Worshippers abducting children for ritual abuse.
Legal System is stymied by too much protection for the accused.
Recycling Paper and Cans can really help save the Earth.
Hydrogen Cars are around the corner, so don't think about alternatives to transportation/living arrangements.
Your 9-year old child will be abducted by Gypsies or Satanists or Pedos if you let them walk 5 blocks to the Park or School.

thunderlips11 says

In the OT Yahweh's dumb rules are only binding on Jews and everybody else can do whatever they want.

Except child sacrifice: "Leviticus 20:2...Whosoever he be of the children of Israel, or of the strangers that sojourn in Israel, that giveth any of his seed unto Molech; he shall surely be put to death: the people of the land shall stone him with stones." Islam is the only major religion that practices child sacrifice, which Muslims call "honor killings."

22% of Syrians call ISIL/Daesh "a positive influence." Any guesses as to what religion those 22% of Syrians believe in? (Hint: while Syrians comprise many different religious groups, ISIL/Daesh are Sunni Muslim, like the Saudis.)

BTW, "Nearly half of Syrians surveyed said they opposed U.S.-coalition airstrikes, and nearly 80 percent said that the war has gotten worse because of the influx of foreign fighters."

thunderlips11 says

Estimates have the numbers of migrants by gender and age being overwhelmingly young male, 75%.

What we should do is take the women and children out and let the men stay, but that won't happen for the same reason that Honor Killings happen.

We need to take in women and children who are the innocent victims in this war. I am shocked most of the migrants are young males. Most of them should be women and children who don't do the fighting. I'm sure there are lots of orphans and widows who need help.
Most men with families would care for the safety of their family first. If they are not willing to let their families go to safety, they must have extremist tendencies, in which case we don't want them anyway.

marcus says

SO all of the Islamic clerics that have spoken out saying that these recent atrocities are not the acts of true Muslims are lying ?

yes, in fact they are lying. you'd know that if you did a bit of reading.

They are just like our politicians. Politically correct bullshit. "Islam is a peaceful religion"

Strategist says

We need to take in women and children who are the innocent victims in this war. I am shocked most of the migrants are young males. Most of them should be women and children who don't do the fighting. I'm sure there are lots of orphans and widows who need help.

Most men with families would care for the safety of their family first. If they are not willing to let their families go to safety, they must have extremist tendencies, in which case we don't want them anyway.

Agreed.

mell says

Strategist says

We need to take in women and children who are the innocent victims in this war. I am shocked most of the migrants are young males. Most of them should be women and children who don't do the fighting. I'm sure there are lots of orphans and widows who need help.


Most men with families would care for the safety of their family first. If they are not willing to let their families go to safety, they must have extremist tendencies, in which case we don't want them anyway.

Agreed.

Whoops! Wait a minute. I just heard a woman suicide bomber exploded. What's Plan B?

I am curious what the wording of the question that was asked in the poll cited by OP. The source of the poll isn't exactly fair and balanced.

There shouldn't be a govt sponsored religion of any sort. One of our constitutionally granted rights.

HydroCabron says

The point is not that Christianity did those things, it's that they did them and then they stopped, usually within 2-3 generations. Cultural change and enlightenment, once started, can occur in a flash

Could be that Islam is at such a flash point, but christianity and islam have been around almost the same amount of time. I will agree that if any country could moderate muslims the US might be the only one that has that chance. Europe is gone beyond hope. Muslims can only moderate by not ghettoizing.

Muslims in India have been around since around the Mughal empire and one can see how well assimilated they are.

HydroCabron says

Patrick believes that (A) all Muslims nurture violent Muslims, and (B) violent Muslims will continue to be violent for generations

A. Generally yes, this occurs by staying silent or claiming that 'that's not the Islam I practice', which is disingenuous
B. Proof is in the pudding, to date

HydroCabron says

wealthy Christian, Muslim and Hindu oligarchs - to divert us from solving the greatest threat to our existence, which is the destruction of our environment.

Irrelevant to the topic

HydroCabron says

Guns ain't gonna fix what the Koch Bros are doing to us

Probably not; Koch brothers are a stain on humanity. Do they support making christianity the national religion?

HydroCabron says

The idea that ignorant fanatics are an existential threat to Europe or the United States is beyond laughable

I don't think it's an existential threat, per se, but it is an argument for more people being armed for sure and ready to respond when cops can't show up. But then again, guns may be of limited value against someone so crazy to strap bombs to their body and detonate them in a crowd. Having moderate muslims simply throwing their arms up in the air and saying 'this is not the islam I practice' is effectively empty rhetoric.

Great example of Multi Kult double standards:

HydroCabron says

A majority of Republicans nationally support establishing Christianity as the national religion, according to a new Public Policy Polling survey released Tuesday.

Ah but WHICH Christianity? Every splinter is sure the others are wrong and followers will burn in Hell.

You better pick one before ISIS picks it for you.

HydroCabron says

57% of Republicans support making Christianity the national religion

And David Lee Roth squats in slow motion

Does it get any more Anti American than trying to force your shitty, childish ‘religion’ on the rest of us Real Americans?