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1   Y   2015 Dec 2, 12:53pm  

question is irrelevant given the dearth of facts...

2   Blurtman   2015 Dec 2, 1:11pm  

Random soft target or folks with a beef?

3   FNWGMOBDVZXDNW   2015 Dec 2, 1:16pm  

SoftShell says

question is irrelevant given the dearth of facts...

The question is very relevant. The answer is yet unknown.

4   Blurtman   2015 Dec 2, 3:04pm  

Three shooters so not typical of a disgruntled employee shooting. Denial of disability benefits?

5   NDrLoR   2015 Dec 2, 3:45pm  

Blurtman says

Denial of disability benefits?

I had that thought too. These people are serious about their benefits.

6   EastCoastBubbleBoy   2015 Dec 2, 7:16pm  

Too early to say, but for most of the prior mass shootings in the news cycle, we have (IMHO) a mental health problem more so than a gun problem.
For now I just hope that you all are safe, as are your friends and family (I know full well that Patrick has a sizable CA readership base)

On the face of it something about this seems odd - but lets wait for the facts before we start throwing around our ideologies.

7   MisdemeanorRebel   2015 Dec 2, 7:39pm  

Farooq is devout Muslim according to Father, who is estranged from him:

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/suspect-involved-calif-massacre-identified-article-1.2453471

(If this is the right Farooq)

8   Y   2015 Dec 3, 6:21am  

Sure, now it is...now that we have real data to digest.

YesYNot says

SoftShell says

question is irrelevant given the dearth of facts...

The question is very relevant. The answer is yet unknown.

9   Y   2015 Dec 3, 6:23am  

+1
EastCoastBubbleBoy says

On the face of it something about this seems odd - but lets wait for the facts before we start throwing around our ideologies.

10   FNWGMOBDVZXDNW   2015 Dec 3, 6:45am  

SoftShell says

Sure, now it is...now that we have real data to digest

Anyone who couldn't predict that there would be a bunch of chest thumping and horribly overreaching conclusions based on this story is a fucking idiot or has been living under a rock for the last 15 years. I was just asking how it would be spun, and everyone knew it would be one or the other. This one is interesting, b/c it was committed by people of ME descent, but it is not yet clear if they were hell-bent jihadis or your more simple mentally handicapped disaffected fuckers with tremendously overbuilt senses of self importance.

11   resistance   2015 Dec 3, 6:58am  

http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-up-to-20-shot-in-san-bernardino-active-shooter-sought-20151202-story.html

Co-workers described Farook as quiet and polite, and said he had no obvious grudges with anyone in the office. The 28-year-old had recently traveled to Saudi Arabia and returned with a woman he met online.

it's starting to look like islam was a factor.

12   FNWGMOBDVZXDNW   2015 Dec 3, 8:32am  

New comment by Ironman in San Bernardino shooting - mental health problem or Islamic war?:
YesYNot says

your more simple mentally handicapped disaffected fuckers with tremendously overbuilt senses of self importance.

Well, I guess we know where YOUR decision lies...

*************

You seem to be confused about basic grammar again. May I refer you to this:
https://books.google.com/books/content/images/frontcover/FzNiCgAAQBAJ?fife=w300-rw

Sometimes 'not yet clear' is just a cigar. Other times it's a penis in your mouth. You should opt for the first meaning when in doubt.

13   FNWGMOBDVZXDNW   2015 Dec 3, 8:47am  

YesYNot says

Sometimes 'not yet clear' ..

..means all facts aren't known...

But in YOUR case, YOUR mind is made up... the hell with FACTS (that these were Islamic terrorists).

Doesn't get much clearer than that based on your post!

*******************
For some reason, I get emails with your comments on threads I start despite having you on ignore. In any case, I have no idea what you are talking about, b/c it is non-nonsensical gibberish.

14   turtledove   2015 Dec 3, 8:49am  

EastCoastBubbleBoy says

we have (IMHO) a mental health problem more so than a gun problem.

If by "mental health problem" you mean Islamic Terrorist then I would agree with you. But I think that when Yes asks about the "mental health problem" theory she/he is just trying to make excuses for this act of terror. Also, to show how Obama really did do everything he could to protect us from acts of terror, because what happened wasn't a terrorist attack, it was a medical problem that went untreated. It's really our fault for not having Obamacare sooner.

Yes, this argument doesn't work. It's been rejected by courts repeatedly. You cannot murder someone and claim an insanity defense based on the fact that only crazy people kill other people. The very fact that they tried to run away after the shooting shows that they were competent enough to know they had done something wrong (to say the least).

15   FNWGMOBDVZXDNW   2015 Dec 3, 9:26am  

turtledove says

But I think that when Yes asks about the "mental health problem" theory she/he is just trying to make excuses for this act of terror.

I thought it would be clearer, but apparently not. I posted this before any information had been released. Usually when there is a shooting, it is labeled terrorist attack or a mental health problem. If the attacker is from the Middle East or Africa, it is labeled a terrorist attack. If it is a white Christian, it is labelled as a mental health problem. Some people even go so far as to blame anti-depressants. My personal opinion is that terrorist attacks like the Boston Marathon bombers are correctly labelled. The attackers probably have mental health problems, but the political issues were over-riding. When young kids shoot up schools, it seems to be primarily a mental health problem, which I'm sure is exacerbated by other forces. Labeling those mental health issues is probably correct, but misses part of the problem. Dylan Roof in Charleston should have been labeled a terrorist. I'm sure he had mental problems like the Boston kids, but his act seemed to be motivated by political ideology and he was egged on by militant hate groups. Republican politicians tend to label any white Christian kid as a victim of mental health problems, pharmaceuticals, or anything else. They reflexively label any ME or African perp as a thug, terrorist, etc. My thread title was simply a commentary on that point, which has been made many times in the media and on PNet. So, I figured it would be obvious. I had also assumed that this case would follow the pattern and the perps would fall into one of these two 'simple' categories. But it is more ambiguous than normal at the moment. Since this guy just went to SA and got himself a shiny new bride, it looks more like he was seduced by Islamic terror group or at least on terrorist (his wife).

It also sounds like he may have been lonely and somewhat desperate for some connection. There has been a tremendous amount of multi-person shootings lately in the US, and loneliness may be a common thread in many of these cases.

16   Vicente   2015 Dec 3, 9:39am  

Ironman says

San Bernadino suspects names : Syed Farooq, Susanna Ramos and Syed Moizullah.

You decide...

1 US-born American citizen, and 1 Saudi.

9/11, remember that? Saudis.

Instead of Afghanistan and Iraq, we should have invaded Saudi Arabia. Oh right, they were Bush allies.

17   justme   2015 Dec 3, 9:44am  

Saudi Arabia is definitely part of the axis of evil. The question is, when are people going to realize who else is part of that axis?

ADDENDUM: are we going to get some nominations for who the other members are?

18   MisdemeanorRebel   2015 Dec 3, 10:30am  

YesYNot says

If it is a white Christian, it is labelled as a mental health problem.

Not so, the are Beltway Shooters NOT listed as a terror act in the FBI Database, I strongly disagree with that.

19   MisdemeanorRebel   2015 Dec 3, 10:33am  

Ironman says

Does that sound like he was "lonely"??

He was married, no?

And he just came back from Saudi Barbaria.

20   Ceffer   2015 Dec 3, 10:40am  

The new American Dream: eat lead, infidels!

21   turtledove   2015 Dec 3, 11:19am  

He was lonely. Now, that's funny. We've learned from certain site members that there are all kinds of ways to keep from being lonely. You have pornographic tea parties with one's blow-up dolls... And there are always hookers.... endless hookers.

Keep looking for excuses, ignoring the fact that his religion requires the very behavior we saw yesterday. As a devout follower, he ensured his place with Allah.

Personally, I don't think much of religious zealots, in general. However, Christians do NOT have large scale groups telling them that their ticket to Heaven is murder. So, you keep trying to liken Islam to Christianity, but it just isn't the same.

22   Rew   2015 Dec 3, 11:25am  

turtledove says

Personally, I don't think much of religious zealots, in general. However, Christians do NOT have large scale groups telling them that their ticket to Heaven is murder. So, you keep trying to liken Islam to Christianity, but it just isn't the same.

True. Christians believe suicide isn't a path to heaven. Christian terrorists typically try and stay alive to continue "gods work".

By the above, I mean to imply whether or not a form a religious terrorism uses suicide tactics, is not a significant differentiating characteristic.

Edit: Hahaha. I do not know why I keyed of of suicided here instead of murder. Let me try again ...

http://thechristians.com/?q=node/1160

Your statement is arguably correct for the US. No "large scale group" preaching murder. I agree. I don;t think that is true for the rest of the world though, as above is just one current case.

As long as we continue to look at what makes us "unique", "just", or "different", and not unified as a people against violence ... we will continue to play into the terrorists hands in using religion as a motivator for murder and extreme acts.

Historically, also, Christianity did have large scale groups preaching murder in gods name ...
http://markhumphrys.com/christianity.killings.html

23   NuttBoxer   2015 Dec 3, 11:39am  

Even the disgruntled postman never got down like this, that notion is patently ridiculous. Interestingly, alot of people(?) on social media said it was a white male before news was even fit to print/stream.

Do terrorists consider a Health and Public Services building a high profile target? Doubtful. So without more evidence the most logical conclusion to me seems to be either a sustained state of mental disturbance, along the lines of the also well prepared Columbine Killers(who were on or had recently gone off prescription meds). Or a false flag/government plant in order to beat down the resistance to completely disarming the public. It's happened before...

24   turtledove   2015 Dec 3, 11:57am  

Rew says

True. Christians believe suicide isn't a path to heaven. Christian terrorists typically try and stay alive to continue "gods work".

By the above, I mean to imply whether or not a form a religious terrorism uses suicide tactics, is not a significant differentiating characteristic.

Where in Christianity is it taught that murder is one's ticket to heaven? You want to hold up a few nut jobs and claim that that's Christianity. Show me the book, chapter, and verse where Jesus tells everyone that their duty is to murder people?

What you fail to grasp is that it IS taught, on a large scale, to Muslims that murder is a ticket to heaven. Their greatest prophet even said so.

25   MisdemeanorRebel   2015 Dec 3, 12:02pm  

Literally in the Koran, Jihad is permanent, there can never be peace with Infidels - only temporary cease-fires, the end of the world/paradise on earth can't happen until total conversion of everyone to Islam, and those who die on Jihad are guaranteed the highest of Paradises with ever-virgin Houris to serve them*.

26   resistance   2015 Dec 3, 12:11pm  

http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/san-bernardino-shooting/san-bernardino-shooting-suspects-left-baby-daughter-grandma-n473261

"There was obviously a mission here," Bowdich said. "We do not know why. We do not know if this was the intended target or something triggered him."

But authorities told NBC News on Thursday that Farook appeared to have been radicalized. They said he had been in touch with people in the Los Angeles area who have expressed jihadist-oriented views.

Intelligence sources told NBC News that Farook appeared to have been in some form of communication with overseas individuals who are persons of interest to American authorities.

27   FNWGMOBDVZXDNW   2015 Dec 3, 12:16pm  

turtledove says

He was lonely. Now, that's funny. ...

Keep looking for excuses, ignoring the fact that his religion requires the very behavior we saw yesterday. As a devout follower, he ensured his place with Allah.

Increasing loneliness in our society (if it is really happening) might be an explanation for the increased amount of multiple victim shootings. It's not an excuse for terrorism. Stop assuming ridiculous arguments, and focus on what was actually said.

YesYNot says

There has been a tremendous amount of multi-person shootings lately in the US, and loneliness may be a common thread in many of these cases.

thunderlips11 says

Koran, Jihad is permanent, there can never be peace with Infidels

The Koran is as silly as Christianity, so I'm not stating that there is any truth to it. On the other hand, one interpretation is that Jihad is permanent so long as other people are attacking Islam. Since a cartoon is considered an attack, it's hard not to be 'attacking them.' But if we all take strategist's attitude and 'go to war against Islam,' it will be an "Us vs them" religious war. The poor atheist have to sit around watching people kill each other over their imaginary gods. Unfortunately, the atheists get killed too.

28   Heraclitusstudent   2015 Dec 3, 12:32pm  

YesYNot says

If the attacker is from the Middle East or Africa, it is labeled a terrorist attack. If it is a white Christian, it is labelled as a mental health problem.

That's total BS that seeks to reduce any objective view of this death cult to an act of bigotry.

As soon as someone mentions the fact that textual Islam encourages murder under many conditions, a lot of liberals quickly look away and start self flagellating.

This has to stop. Yes we have issues of our own, but no, this has nothing to do with us.

29   dublin hillz   2015 Dec 3, 12:43pm  

It is both, the fact that someone allows themselves to be radicalized reflects weakness of character and mental illness.

30   turtledove   2015 Dec 3, 12:54pm  

dublin hillz says

It is both, the fact that someone allows themselves to be radicalized reflects weakness of character and mental illness.

Radicals don't consider their beliefs to be radical. They think they've found capital-T Truth and believe strongly in it. They are called radicals only by people who hold different beliefs.

31   Heraclitusstudent   2015 Dec 3, 12:55pm  

dublin hillz says

It is both, the fact that someone allows themselves to be radicalized reflects weakness of character and mental illness.

That's ignorance of the problem.
For example most people think advertisement has no effect on them. But studies show it has a massive effect.
We want to think we are rational, but we have huge biases in the way we think that can be and are exploited.
Every human is highly vulnerable to propaganda techniques.

32   Heraclitusstudent   2015 Dec 3, 12:59pm  

Western leaders probably think a strong army protects the west and this is all that matters.
But armies are unlikely to protect us from ideas.
Our leaders are under-estimating the virulence of these memes.

33   FNWGMOBDVZXDNW   2015 Dec 3, 12:59pm  

Heraclitusstudent says

As soon as someone mentions the fact that textual Islam encourages murder under many conditions, a lot of liberals quickly look away and start self flagellating.

This has to stop.

Pretty sure that the liberal line is the same as what George W stated. That is, that the majority of Muslims are not terrorists, and don't want a holy war. That the terrorists are perverting and hijacking Islam. Calling out Islam as an evil cult is playing into the terrorists plan. They get their wet dream ending of the holy war.

34   Rew   2015 Dec 3, 1:01pm  

turtledove says

Where in Christianity is it taught that murder is one's ticket to heaven? You want to hold up a few nut jobs and claim that that's Christianity. Show me the book, chapter, and verse where Jesus tells everyone that their duty is to murder people?

What you fail to grasp is that it IS taught, on a large scale, to Muslims that murder is a ticket to heaven. Their greatest prophet even said so.

https://carm.org/sites/default/files/kjv/Deut/Deut_17.htm
Section 5. Looks like anyone studying the Kings James is being taught on a wide scale to murder all christian non-believers in the name of god! (wink)

Your claim that there is no wide scale Christian faiths teaching murder toward salvation right now. This is only true of today.
"Onward Christian solider. God is with us. God will be my shield." Sound familiar? That stuff is as old as the crusades and still persists today. Just back 15 generations or so, Christianity was one of the most violent religions on the planet.

The greatest Islamic prophet didn't preach this either. Just as above, Jesus didn't either. It's only later, after a religion matures more does it start to go down paths less egalatartian and more violent.

http://www.muhammadfactcheck.org

Murder and terrorism are not uniquely Islamic. Islam isn't the enemy.

Speech like this though leads to major backlash killings, domestic religious violence, and that tips dangerously toward all out religious wars. IS welcomes the day.

35   Heraclitusstudent   2015 Dec 3, 1:13pm  

YesYNot says

Pretty sure that the liberal line is the same as what George W stated. That is, that the majority of Muslims are not terrorists, and don't want a holy war. That the terrorists are perverting and hijacking Islam. Calling out Islam as an evil cult is playing into the terrorists plan. They get their wet dream ending of the holy war.

There is a fine line here:
- Sure the majority of Muslims are not terrorists.
- Sure we have to make sure moderate muslims can seek a spiritual path that has nothing to do with above problems.
- Sure we have to make sure to not antagonize them.
- But no we should not accept all of Islam ideas because these ideas are clearly evil and have no place in the US or the west. (stoning, mutilations, killing people depending on their beliefs, unequal men-women rules, etc....)

We cannot leave a huge space to these ideas and the teaching of these ideas and then complain about the suffering that is a direct consequence of that.
Moderate Muslims MUST be persuaded to throw away these and do so officially.

36   curious2   2015 Dec 3, 1:15pm  

Rew says

Murder and terrorism are not uniquely Islamic.

As noted elsewhere on PatNet, Islam combines the holy violence of early Judaism (you quoted Deuteronomy, from the OT) with the global missionary proseletyzing of late Christianity. That makes Islam worse than either of the other Abrahamic faiths. The OT Jews fought for what they called their "holy land," or "promised land," which some of their descendants continue to fight for today, but they don't try to convert the whole world. Also, even if you are born into one of the tribes of Israel, or a Christian family, you are free to leave the religion; they don't kill apostates, as Muslim countries tend to do. Also, neither Christian countries nor Muslim countries kill people for making fun of their religion (Muslim countries tend to do that too). Islamic murder and terrorism have express doctrinal endorsement in texts that all believers claim to believe, and global reach.

Rew says

greatest Islamic prophet

A contradiction in terms. Show me the Muslim version of George Carlin, and if he makes millions in a Muslim country making fun of Islam, then you'll have shown me something worth seeing. Otherwise, it's a fundamentally intolerant doctrine as can be seen in all the countries where it has been allowed to take power; "moderate" behavior in other countries is basically taqiya.

Rew says

Just back 15 generations or so, Christianity was one of the most violent religions on the planet.

Actually you'd have to go back further, but even if we accept your calendar, then your argument would apply 15 generations from now, not today.

37   FNWGMOBDVZXDNW   2015 Dec 3, 1:22pm  

Heraclitusstudent says

- Sure the majority of Muslims are not terrorists.

- Sure we have to make sure moderate muslims can seek a spiritual path that has nothing to do with above problems.

- Sure we have to make sure to not antagonize them.

- But no we should not accept all of Islam ideas because these ideas are clearly evil and have no place in the US or the west.

Good, then you, me, GW, and the rest of the liberals are in agreement.Heraclitusstudent says

We cannot leave a huge space to these ideas and the teaching of these ideas and then complain about the suffering that is a direct consequence of that.

Moderate Muslims MUST be persuaded to throw away these and do so officially.

Do you suggest policing what is said inside of Mosques? Are moderate (most) mosques in the US advocating stoning? Do you want to control what foreign countries use as punishment for crime? Should European countries make the US stop using the death penalty?

38   Heraclitusstudent   2015 Dec 3, 1:25pm  

Rew says

"Onward Christian solider. God is with us. God will be my shield." Sound familiar? That stuff is as old as the crusades and still persists today. Just back 15 generations or so, Christianity was one of the most violent religions on the planet.

This is irrelevant because it's not gospel, it's wildly discredited and no one believes it now.
By opposition a majority of Muslims worldwide believes that shariah law should be applied. Including killing apostates, polytheists, or adulterers for example.
If you don't recognize that there is a problem unique to Islam now, I don't know what will convince you. A yellow mushroom?

Letting people teach that kind of beliefs is clearly first intellectual dishonesty, second it is moral cowardice.

39   Heraclitusstudent   2015 Dec 3, 1:31pm  

YesYNot says

Do you suggest policing what is said inside of Mosques? Are moderate (most) mosques in the US advocating stoning? Do you want to control what foreign countries use as punishment for crime? Should European countries make the US stop using the death penalty?

Yes.
No, but they revere texts that call for stoning and they should be made to officially declare that they do not believe in this.
No, but countries punishing beliefs by death should be called out as evil.
If the US was applying death penalty for beliefs and adultery then yes Europe should at a minimum call out these practices as evil and distance itself from such an evil government

40   Shaman   2015 Dec 3, 1:33pm  

Obama has famously declared climate change to be the most serious security concern of the United States.
Sayed Farook was an Environmental Health Specialist making $51k/year employed by the county of San Bernadino.
Coincidence? Or should we believe Obama and start to fear climate scientists lest they engage in mass slaughter?

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