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It's not fair that some people inherent good genes and others are born ugly or with birth defects or genetic disease.
Right, life is not fair. Can't have it good for everybody. So choices are made according to values. My priority is to ensure that all children are given as much equal start as possible.
and this makes it better?
Bad spellcheck. I meant enforceable,
does not make it morally right
My priority is to ensure that all children are given as much equal start as possible.
You fail at that priority if you reject parental licensing.
ou have the right to do whatever you want as long as it does not interfere with other people's rights.
What rights? Their tax dollars?
does not make it morally right
How is allowing children to be subjected to abject poverty and even death -- many children die from bad parenting -- morally superior?
How is requiring people to be responsible before becoming parents morally wrong? Some states require that you have a license to have a dog or cat. Doesn't having a kid require far more responsibility and expense? We shouldn't let people have dogs and cats if they can't take care of them. Same should be true for children.
I have the moral high ground, not you.
I think FP has a gross ignorance of just how bad poverty is for single mothers and the incredible burden placed on children as a result.
https://phys.org/news/2015-08-mothers-poverty-fathers.html
It's a damn serious problem in the U.S. and getting worse every year.
How is allowing children to be subjected to abject poverty and even death -- many children die from bad parenting -- morally superior?
sterillizing women is neither necessary nor sufficient condition for preventing this
I think FP has a gross ignorance of just how bad poverty is for single mothers and the incredible burden placed on children as a result.
No, I don't.
So your solution is to sterilize poor women?
What rights? Their tax dollars?
Subjecting a man to indentured servitude violates his rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. Life is stolen from him in the form of the time it takes him to work to pay child support as well as any jail time for falling behind even if he is fired for no fault of his own. Liberty is directly taken from the man. He loses the ability to pursue happiness from his earnings.
You seem very apathetic to the suffering you so willingly would inflict upon your fellow man.
sterillizing women is neither necessary nor sufficient condition for preventing this
Prove it. Oh, and the sterilization does not have to be permanent. That's why I said chemical spaying.
So your solution is to sterilize poor women?
My solution involves preventing women or men from continuing to choose to produce more children when they have failed to take care of the ones they already have. And yes, that is the path of least evil in this situation. It is far less evil than what you propose: slavery, childhood poverty, and debtor prisons (which are in the status quo you are defending). Rapists are chemically castrated so they cannot rape again. The justification is that they should not have the freedom to commit more of the same harm. Why should irresponsible parents be allowed to commit more of the same harm?
Prove it.
Ah, nonsense. We both know I'm right. In any case, you are the one who must prove it is necessary and sufficient.
It is far less evil than what you propose: slavery, childhood poverty, and debtor prisons (which are in the status quo you are defending).
1. Paying child support is not slavery.
2. See above about necessary and sufficient condition.
3. You and I obviously have different views on evil.
1. Paying child support is not slavery.
Paying a large percentage of your income under threat of violence if you do not, for the majority of your working life, is an approximation of slavery.
As the percentage approaches 100%, the situation does indeed approach slavery.
Why should irresponsible parents be allowed to commit more of the same harm?
Again, how do you define irresponsible? Having income below certain level?
Harm - to your wallet?
Too bad society does not view you using all your income, as you wish, for your pleasure only, regardless of what you've done, as your irrvokable right. But I am fine with it. After all, you are breathing the air of my children. And you are getting old and useless. Why should we tolerate your existence? I say we need license for living. You have lived irresponsibly, not raised descendants to take your place and to take care of you in your old age. Why should we allow you to continue doing the same thing?
As the percentage approaches 100%, the situation does indeed approach slavery.
The percentage can be varied. I do not claim that the current laws are perfect and should not be changed.
Is there any percentage you find acceptable?
Do you find a governmental allowance acceptable?
1. Paying child support is not slavery.
Paying a large percentage of your income under threat of violence if you do not, for the majority of your working life, is an approximation of slavery.
Slavery, like almost every evil, can be throttled. There are degrees of it, and yes, forcing someone at gunpoint to either work for you or be locked up in a cage is, by definition, slavery. Like all other laws, child support laws are enforced with the barrel of a gun.
3. You and I obviously have different views on evil.
Yes, mine is based on do no harm to others. Yours is based on if you have fun, you have to pay a price.
Why should irresponsible parents be allowed to commit more of the same harm?
Again, how do you define irresponsible? Having income below certain level?
Harm - to your wallet?
Harm to the children they create and to society that must deal with the systemic inter-generational poverty and crime that results from irresponsible reproduction.
Why should we tolerate your existence?
You should tolerate other people's existence because if you don't, they won't tolerate yours. This is called war.
I say we need license for living.
So murder and population control are the same thing? I think not.
You have lived irresponsibly, not raised descendants to take your place and to take care of you in your old age. Why should we allow you to continue doing the same thing?
Becoming a parent is the most selfish act you can commit when there are 7+ soon to be 10 billion people on the planet and already a third of them don't even have sufficient drinking water, and we've killed off half the wildlife on the planet in the past 40 years, and we're polluting it to the point of drastically changing the climate. So no, being childless is being selfless. We should strongly encourage that.
People should not reproduce like locus and consume everything in their path. That is not being responsible, and it harms all future generations.
When the world population drops below 10 million, then you can complain that we need more children. Until then such a claim is ridiculous.
Ah, nonsense. We both know I'm right. In any case, you are the one who must prove it is necessary and sufficient.
This is the lamest argument posted on PatNet ever.
Yes, mine is based on do no harm to others. Yours is based on if you have fun, you have to pay a price.
Yours are based on selfishness and bearing no responsibility.
Harm to the children they create and to society that must deal with the systemic inter-generational poverty and crime that results from irresponsible reproduction.
And how do you determine this before they've had children? Based on wealth and income? I hope you realize the implications of this, especially considering how wealth is "earned" in our society.
By the way how is child poverty in the Scandinavian countries, or Japan?
Ah, nonsense. We both know I'm right. In any case, you are the one who must prove it is necessary and sufficient.
This is the lamest argument posted on PatNet ever.
This is the lamest argument posted on PatNet ever.
So murder and population control are the same thing? I think not.
Just continuing your line of logic, one small step further, to illustrate its absurdity.
Do you really believe that people will allow you to decide who can and who can't have children? To sterilize their wives and daughters? That there are no better solutions for population control (what is the natural growth rate in the developed countries again?)? Just so that you can save some dumbfuck who can't use a condom (or the taxpayers) a few bucks needed to provide for their children.
Yes, mine is based on do no harm to others. Yours is based on if you have fun, you have to pay a price.
Yours are based on selfishness and bearing no responsibility.
Bullshit. My entire proposal is based on the principle that a child is a person, not an accessory like a purse. Yours is based on the principle that children are the property of their parents and parents can act as selfishly as they want and force others into slavery to compensate for their irresponsibility.
You don't get to declare good policies evil and evil polices good simply because you say so.
Harm to the children they create and to society that must deal with the systemic inter-generational poverty and crime that results from irresponsible reproduction.
And how do you determine this before they've had children? Based on wealth and income?
The exact same way Child Protective Services determines this after children are born. Same standards. It's already being done for children post-birth. The exact same thign can be done pre-birth.
If you want to argue that Child Protective Services should be disbanded and the state should never be able to take children away from unfit parents, then grow a pair of balls and argue that. You'll lose that argument though.
Do you really believe that people will allow you to decide who can and who can't have children?
Who the fuck said I would be deciding. I said that Child Protective Services would license parents based on whether or not they are fit parents using the same standards they use right now for deciding whether or not children need to be taken away from their parents for their own protection. The only criteria I'm adding is a basic financial solvency test requiring that the parents aren't receiving any kind of financial aid because if they need financial aid to support themselves or their children, then they are not ready to have children. If you can't pay rent or your mortgage, you can't afford a child. Children are expensive, and you do not have the right to inflict abject poverty on them.
Just so that you can save some dumbfuck who can't use a condom (or the taxpayers) a few bucks needed to provide for their children.
First off, asshole, you're assuming that's the case. Some pregnancies do occur even when condoms are used.
More importantly, you just revealed your real motivations, and they are not noble. You don't give a shit about people or the children. You only care about punishing men who have had recreational sex. This is why your position is evil. You do not seek to decrease suffering or improve the lots of children. You seek to inflict suffering on men because they had some pleasure in life. You are sick.
Man, I can't believe Dan seems to be less batshit crazy than you
Disagreeing with your opinions is not insanity. Not having consistent, non-contradicting reasons for believing something is.
There is nothing I have ever written that in any way constitutes any form of craziness. Every fact I've presented has either been true, or in rare cases, immediately refuted once I learned it was inaccurate. I may not be perfect, but I'm damn close because I play devil's advocate with every idea I have. I've attacked my ideas far better than you ever could, and I do that before I present them to anyone. This is why I can hold my ground. If I cannot justify a belief against all challenges, then I do not accept the belief.
If only more people did this.
Another reason that parenting should be licensed.
But hey, the right to get your stupid genetic code in the pool of over 7 billion genetic instances is way more important than preventing shit like this.
Dan, keep writing; I'm slowly coming around to the idea that birth licensing based on genetic code screening has its merits.
@Patrick
why do you think it was a trap after a man enjoy during sex?
do you think a woman will get pregnant just because a trap?
I think it was just an excuse men to escape responsibility.
do you think that unmarried men who have sex can not make a woman pregnant without a trap ..
whether a woman who is pregnant for 9 months without a husband it easy? when men just need to work to make money, a woman must bring a growing belly wherever she went.
do you still think that if a man did the sister or your mother or your daughter?
you right have the right man.
but I think it's different with human rights, because the man should not think like animals.
do not treat women like sex doll that's used only when desired and removed whenever men want.
Do you think women should have higher rights than men?
Only with regards to abortion because the physical constraints of reality prevents complete equality in that matter. However, that is the only exception. In all other things, including the right to not opt in to legal parenthood, there should be absolute equality under law for both genders. To say otherwise is, by definition, sexist.
If only more people did this.
More people should do this.
Furthermore, I challenge ch_tah2 or anyone else to provide even a single example of me saying something batshit crazy on PatNet. I've made 25,828 comments and 1,906 posts, so finding crazy should be damn easy if it exists. Yet I doubt anyone could produce a single example. I can easily defend everything that I've stated except for the few things I retracted when presented with valid counter-evidence. Hey, nobody's perfect, and changing one's mind in light of new evidence is always perfectly valid.
Do you think women should have higher rights than men?
@Patrick
should be same bcoz im just know about human rights..no one being higher than another. but bcoz of selfish many people feel they are is number one.
why you should make a comparison between men's right and women's right?
why not ask ourselves about our obligations before demanding about rights?
when a men hv sex before marriage..and his women got pregnant..do you think both of them hv rights to kill their child?
so i think dont you said about trap..bcoz no one force them to hv one night sex.
why you should make a comparison between men's right and women's right?
Because men and women should have the same legal rights, but they do not. Women have more rights.
Obligations also come with rights. To have only obligations but no rights is to be a slave.
do you think both of them hv rights to kill their child?
Any right that the woman has, the man should also have.
We could debate the morality of abortion in general, but that is a separate issue. My own opinion is that an embryo is not a child. I do not see a problem with abortion before any brain has developed.
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Let's call it the affirmative consent law, requiring men to give affirmative consent to paternity.
This would achieve equality with a woman's "her body her choice" right to ignore the man's request for an abortion or to give the child up for adoption. Rights which only women have.
If she has the right to refuse responsibility for the baby, he should also have the right to refuse responsibility for the baby. In recognition of the biological reality that it is the woman who physically has to have the abortion, if she wants to abort, the man should have to pay the entire financial cost of the abortion.
Married men should be assumed by the fact of marriage to have given their consent to financial support for legitimate biological paternity.
It is not fair that a woman should have the right to entrap a man with one night sex, obligating him to 20 years or more of financial liability, when she has the right to simply opt out of the same situation via abortion or giving up the baby for adoption. Without a man's affirmative consent to paternity, it's rape.
#politics