patrick.net

bob2356 says

Strategist says

Obama strategy.....Please please please, cherry on top. Don't develop nukes. We are sorry. We will give you anything you want.
Trump strategy.......Fuck you asshole. Either you destroy those nukes, or we will destroy them for you, along with your regime.

And the winning strategy is............

South Korea.

They don't have a strategy. If it wasn't for the US, there would be no South Korea.

Feux Follets says

BlueSardine says

Kim expects to extract handouts as always...problem for kim is, we actually have someone that wants to win at these talks and not push the shit down the road for another decade.

Does this mean previous administration were not serious ? Political affiliation not a factor.

It means previous administrations had no balls, which is why they kicked the can down the street. Trump has the balls, which is why NK is bending over.

Previous administrations did not have to be serious considering Kim's limited capabilities.
Given Kim's imminent intercontinental capabilities we've run out of road to kick.
BlueSardine says

Does this mean previous administration were not serious ?

Strategist says

It means previous administrations had no balls, which is why they kicked the can down the street. Trump has the balls, which is why NK is bending over.

Oh, and Obama will jealously watch and learn, while Trump enjoys himself fucking Kim.

Nah, this is how this kind of regimes - NK, Russia, Iran, Saddam's Iraq etc. - play the West: they imitate willingness to talk and compromise, get some concessions out of it and then switch back to their usual behavior. Rinse, repeat.

Nothing will come out of it.

Satoshi_Nakamoto says

Nothing will come out of it.

You hope.

P N Dr Lo R says

Satoshi_Nakamoto says

Nothing will come out of it.

You hope.

Nope. Just being realistic.

McArthur should've been allowed to nuke the shit out of Commie fucks in '51. Talking to that scum is fucking pointless.

Strategist says

EYYOU says

More talky talk!
If they actually start talks it will take 20 years to come to a signed agreement?

Which is exactly what NK wants, and which is exactly what previous administrations gave them.
But now they are not dealing with nice guy Obama, who can easily be suckered. They are dealing with an asshole who has the Trump card. :)

ROFLOL. That would be our 5 time draft dodger?

Feux Follets says

Satoshi_Nakamoto says

Talking to that scum is fucking pointless

Perhaps that scum feels the same way but he is still playing with all 52 cards, not a few short of a full shuffle like someone else in the spotlight.

If you're talking about the Korean people - their is a clear and gross underestimation of their hatred and resolve not to quit especially where this country is concerned.

Spare me the Commie bullshit about "people" and their "resolve". It's well-known how this "resolve" is achieved: from treating the families of the soldiers as de-facto hostages to anti-retreat squads behind troops sent to attack enemy lines.

@Booger - next time try a picture of North Koreans instead of South Koreans gathering near city hall in Seoul and by the way those in the picture are in the minority.

The majority want the Dotard to stay the hell out of their country, their affairs - everything. They would also much prefer refueling stops in Japan instead of Incheon if at all possible.

That includes Pence, Pompeo anyone in the administration - the U.S. military they can deal with, but even that welcome is wearing thin.

The Dotard will cave - bigly - like you have never seen him cave before. It's going to be the mother of all caves and make the border wall cave look like a walk in the park.

http://patrick.net/post/1322447/2019-02-17-dearest-kim-please-just-don-t-test-your-nukes-missiles-everything-is-great-then-xxoo-the-dotard

Not to worry - Abe gave a recommendation for the Dotard to get a Nobel Piece Prize. No - I did not spell anything wrong. The letter of recommendation will prove to be just as bogus as the first two. See the next comment.

Japan's Abe nominated Trump for the Nobel Peace Prize — reportedly after the US asked him to

•After receiving a request from the U.S. government, Japan's Prime Minister Shinzo Abe nominated U.S. President Donald Trump for the Nobel Peace Prize last autumn, the Asahi newspaper reported on Sunday.

•This report follows Trump's claim on Friday that Abe had nominated him for the Nobel Peace Prize for opening talks and easing tensions with North Korea.

•The Japanese leader had given him "the most beautiful copy" of a five-page nomination letter, Trump said at a White House news conference.

Japanese Prime Minister Shinzo Abe nominated U.S. President Donald Trump for the Nobel Peace Prize last autumn after receiving a request from the U.S. government to do so, the Asahi newspaper reported on Sunday.

The report follows Trump's claim on Friday that Abe had nominated him for the Nobel Peace Prize for opening talks and easing tensions with North Korea.

The Japanese leader had given him "the most beautiful copy" of a five-page nomination letter, Trump said at a White House news conference.

The U.S. government had sounded Abe out over the Nobel Peace Prize nomination after Trump's summit in June last year with North Korean leader Kim Jong Un, the first meeting between a North Korean leader and a sitting U.S. president, the Asahi said, citing an unnamed Japanese government source.

A spokesman for Japan's Foreign Ministry in Tokyo said the ministry was aware of Trump's remarks, but "would refrain from commenting on the interaction between the two leaders."

The White House had no immediate comment when contacted by Reuters.

The Nobel Foundation's website says a nomination for the Nobel Peace Prize may be submitted by any person who meets the nomination criteria, which includes current heads of states. Under the foundation's rules, names and other information about unsuccessful nominations cannot be disclosed for 50 years.

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/02/18/japans-abe-nominated-trump-for-nobel-peace-prize-on-us-request-asahi.html

Memes are not going to change the outcome.

A big beautiful photo op, probable signing of a "peace treaty" or "official end to the hostilities" and another round of photos followed by meaningless rhetoric but at the end of it all Kim walks away with even more stature on the world stage as a nuclear power recognized by the United States and he gets to keep his nukes as well.

However if my memory is correct - the over the top screaming on here was we would bomb them out of existence, they will give up the nukes asap because Kim is afraid of Trump etc. etc. not to mention that spiffy 4 and 5D chess Trump is playing with Kim and Xi Jinping that was going to outmaneuver both Kim and Xi.

Not seeing Kim and Xi outmaneuvered at all but the U.S. sure has.

Memes won the last election.

Kakistocracy says

Not seeing Kim and Xi outmaneuvered at all but the U.S. sure has.

Sure, that's why China offered the huge Soybean buy.

US Tariffs are an existential threat to China.

MisterLearnToCode says

Memes won the last election.

Not going to win with Kim and Xi

Xi is in the long game, so is Kim - Trump is in the short game.

These guys can afford to play around and with Trump - he will not be president forever

Already posted that what they are buying is part of last years crop that is in storage

Kakistocracy says

Already posted that what they are buying is part of last years crop that is in storage

It got sold or not?

MisterLearnToCode says

It got sold or not?

Not all of it - key words - "part" of last years crop which really does nothing for planning for the upcoming season

Kakistocracy says

Not all of it

So more soybeans got sold thanks to the concession won by Trump, yes?

I don't recall Obama negotiating jack shit with China. He thought their slave labor dumping was great, and that 'magic wands' didn't exist, just like his corporate overlords wanted.

Some soybeans got sold - other countries have taken advantage of what used to be our market share

but but but but Obama - Barry isn't Potus anymore

And what pray tell do Trump's corporate overlords want besides that nifty tax package that got passed ?

Still not grasping this - Xi and Kim can afford to fuck around and play with Trump - Trump needs to get re-elected and show he has accomplished something even if it is all a smoke and mirrors victory and then embellish the details for the base.

Then move on to the next activity (distraction) and hope no one pays too much attention to what did not happen

We think short - they think long and they are "playing" Trump just like they did Obama and everyone else

The game is going to continue until we get some people in some administration (it won't happen with this one) that goes into all of this with a better understanding of how the other side thinks and operates especially from a historical perspective

Kakistocracy says

Still not grasping this - Xi and Kim can afford to fuck around and play with Trump - Trump needs to get re-elected and show he has accomplished something even if it is all a smoke and mirrors victory.

No they can't. Kim's economy is a basketcase, and without US exports (because Europeans, unlike the US, demand fair, not free trade with China) neither can China.

I also don't recall Obama doing much about Chinese currency manipulation either.

And yes, since that was the former President of the opposite Party, one needs to compare and contrast.

Isn't it interesting that China's exports to it's neighbors Japan and South Korea, are 1/3 to 1/4 that of the USA.

MisterLearnToCode says

one needs to compare and cont

Only when there is nothing else to offer

This may come as a surprise but the world does not revolve entirely around the U.S. and it's demands and whims

Kakistocracy says

Only when there is nothing else to offer

You can't say X is better or worse than Y without discussing Y.

One reason not to discuss Y is that X is provably superior.

MisterLearnToCode says

You can't say X is better or worse than Y without discussing Y.

Sorry - been around this forum for too long - I know how this game is played, find another participant.

In the matter of a few comments we have gone from soybeans to Trump vs. Obama -

Homey don't play that shit - find someone else

Kakistocracy says

Sorry - been around this forum for too long - I know how this game is played, find another participant.

So you can say an X is better or worse without something to compare it to?

Kakistocracy says

Homey don't play that shit - find someone else

Sorry, everything can only be understood relative to what went on before. If you dismiss the "before", you cannot make any testable truth statements about "now".

MisterLearnToCode says

So more soybeans got sold

No the Chinese said they would buy. The soybean market didn't erupt to fantastic highs, it is smarter than that. The Chinese can't be trusted. Even a signed deal means nothing to them. The whole soybean thing is a kind of bull shit fixation anyway. The world is simply awash in beans. The market sucked before the Chinese balked at our beans. But China doesn't give a shit whether it buys from South America or the US, whoever is cheaper, there isn't that much difference. Think of beans like oil or copper, there is a world market. Years ago foreign deals had a much more direct effect on grain prices in the US. The Russian grain deals in the 1970's set the grain market on fire and tanked it when we had embargos. Much less volatility these days.

The NK's said they would denuke, nothing has happened. Kim can't be trusted. He will never give up his Nukes peacefully. He would let millions of his people eat grass, weeds and each others shit and he still wouldn't give any meaningful concessions The summit is a photo op at best, at worst Trump gives away the store. If it is a photo op only that is good, the best we can hope for, keeps the lovers happy.

MisterLearnToCode says

Kakistocracy says

Sorry - been around this forum for too long - I know how this game is played, find another participant.

So you can say an X is better or worse without something to compare it to?

Kakistocracy says

Homey don't play that shit - find someone else

Sorry, everything can only be understood relative to what went on before. If you dismiss the "before", you cannot make any testable truth statements about "now".

Why not?

Isn't that how Liberal Logic works? It doesn't have to be based on.....well.... nothing....

Kim Jong Un got away with the exact thing he wanted the most out of the Viet Nam summit, our withdrawal from the military exercises

Trump gave it to him at the behest of Putin who wanted that too.

https://secondnexus.com/news/people-tweeting-lists-kim-got-summit-trump/2/

P N Dr Lo R says

ping pong

HERE we GO, ROUND and ROUND, UP and DOWN, BACK and FORTH...

Call It Crazy says

Trump gave it to him at the behest of Putin who wanted that too.

NONSENSE! The Dems staged a lying Cohen hearing to coincide with the summit, to distract for the real possibility of peace and stability in the region, for political gain, so the President doesn't get any victories even if we are all better off if Trump did nail down a treaty with Kim Jong Un. The Dems would rather see the US go down in flames then relinquish one once of power to this President. Usually, the country gets behind a leading dignitary when he goes abroad to hammer out a deal. The country respected Reagan when he went to Helsinki to meet with Gorbachev and didn't distract him with stupid House hearings that prove what we already knew: no collusion.

Kim didn't get anything out of that summit and we have gotten more from him than he gave to us, and Putin has nothing to do with it. What a joke. I'm laughing now. You got me, you troll.

rdm says

The NK's said they would denuke, nothing has happened. Kim can't be trusted. He will never give up his Nukes peacefully. He would let millions of his people eat grass, weeds and each others shit and he still wouldn't give any meaningful concessions The summit is a photo op at best, at worst Trump gives away the store. If it is a photo op only that is good, the best we can hope for, keeps the lovers happy.

Not having hearings while Trump is abroad trying to get a deal might help. THAT's unprecendented.

North Korea is under intense Chinese pressure, whom they depend on for almost anything, not to sign any deals relative to the maintaining the abusive Chinese Trading Status Quo.

North Korea is a lot more of a puppet to China as South Korea is to the USA.

China is pissed off because of all these trade disagreements, so it uses North Korea as one of its pawns.

Call It Crazy says

You are listening to lies from where? Fox?

Call It Crazy says

WillPowers says

What a joke. I'm laughing now. You got me, you troll.

You are listening to lies from where? Fox? God they promote anything Trump does. While acting as if the other side has got nothing. There's the real laugh.

Alice through the looking glass 24/7/ all over the world where not prohibited by law.

I look at all news sites and I especially like raw data I find on You Tube like press conferences and other events in the Oval Office. I like to make up my own mind on events and I only repeat things I heard some pundit say when it reflects my own view on things based on my own research findings. I see the nation is in a lot of trouble and it's not because of Trump. It is because of left-wing ideologies that are based on false data, and false reports: Consider a Brilliant Hoax, where three independent thinkers sent in a phony submission into professional journals that publish social science studies and these submissions were taken seriously and published, even though they were a complete joke: https://mojomorning.blogspot.com/2019/02/a-brilliant-hoax.html

Call It Crazy says

Listen to you reciting chapter and verse propaganda.

Why was Choen's jail time delayed months before he had to serve? Usually if a person is convicted of a crime, they go right to jail, but not in Cohen's case. Why is that? So he could testify before Congress?

Come on dude, get a brain. Of course, it was.

Furthermore, Trump's planned summit with Kim had to be planned months in advance (I remember Trump talking about in December, I believe) anyway, way before they scheduled the House hearing, which they could have easily done another time.

What do you think, it's a coincidence?

It's weak ass thinking like that the Dems count on for votes.

They got you voting against your own interests and you don't even know it.

WillPowers says

I see the nation is in a lot of trouble and it's not because of Trump.

MisterLearnToCode says

Not having hearings while Trump is abroad trying to get a deal might help. THAT's unprecendented.

Did Trump and Bolton Sabotage a North Korea Deal?

Whether this started as a cynical ploy to distract from domestic politics or not, it's all rapidly devolving into 'an utter disaster.'

Forget about the niceties exchanged after the much-hyped Hanoi summit between President Donald Trump and North Korean Chairman Kim Jong-un. To put it bluntly, the administration’s strategy towards Pyongyang has devolved into an utter disaster, and if things do not change soon, we could very well go back to the dark days of “fire and fury.”

So what happened? It may be that Trump walked into the summit in Hanoi with a very slick game plan. There has been ample reporting showing that the Trump administration knew that the North Koreans wanted large-scale sanctions relief in exchange for the closure of much of the Yongbyon nuclear facility. If working groups led by Special Representative Steve Biegun could not bridge the gap, why even hold the summit at all?

I have my own theory. Trump, knowing that Democrats would hold their hearing on the Michael Cohen saga during the first day of the summit in Hanoi, may have gambled that he could take advantage of his 48 hours on the world stage in a bigly way. Trump may have calculated that if he couldn’t get North Korea to bend to a grand bargain—or the total elimination of Pyongyang’s nuclear, chemical, and biological weapons for full sanctions relief—then he should walk. He may have assumed that he could look tough and show up the Democrats, either by making history and getting a mega-deal with Kim or walking out. Either way, he might have decided weeks ago that he needed a “win,” his domestic political fortunes trumping everything else.

There is evidence for this theory. A recent report from CNN shows that the North Koreans, after some clearly tough negotiations in which they even threatened to cancel the summit during working level meetings, did make a substantial offer in the end:

The negotiations were coming to a close at Hanoi’s Metropole Hotel when a North Korean official rushed over to the US delegation.

With Trump preparing to leave the hotel, North Korean Vice Minister of Foreign Affairs Choe Son-hui hurriedly brought the US delegation a message from Kim, two senior administration officials and a person briefed on the matter said. The message amounted to a last-ditch attempt by the North Koreans to reach a deal on some sanctions relief in exchange for dismantling the Yongbyon nuclear complex.

US and North Korean officials had been haggling over a shared definition of the sprawling, three-square-mile site and the last-minute overture sought to advance the North Koreans’ proposal for dismantling it. But the message did not make clear whether the North Koreans shared the US’s expansive definition of the facility and US officials asked for clarity.

Choe rushed back to get an answer. Kim replied that it included everything on the site.

But even when Choe returned with that response, the US delegation was unimpressed and didn’t want to resume the negotiations. Within hours, Trump would be wheels up for Washington.

While such a deal was far from perfect, Trump could have very easily restarted negotiations right then and there. He could have quite possibly made a deal for Yongbyon with less sanctions relief than Kim was looking for. One possibility would have been to trade three of five UN Security Council resolutions that the north wanted lifted for an agreement to fully support all inter-Korean economic development projects presently under consideration. Such a deal would have brought tens of billions of dollars in economic development to North Korea. And if snapback provisions were built into the deal to ensure that Kim wouldn’t be rewarded should he decide to squirm his way out of an agreement, the risk to American interests and allies would have been near zero.

But we will never know—and now things are about to get worse, and fast. North Korea has rebuilt its main space launch testing site, something it seems it was doing since before the Hanoi summit ever got underway. While we still don’t know their true intentions, one could theorize that, if during working level meetings the north did not see any possibility of a compromise agreement, they commenced the building as a way to put pressure on Team Trump. And with satellites overhead watching everything North Korea does, this was a perfectly good way to achieve the desired effect. Compound that with new activity at one of Kim’s main ICBM factories, and the stage is set for trouble.

From here, things get even worse. Several weeks ago during an address at Stanford University, Biegun seemed to suggest a much more conciliatory position on behalf of the administration. He said:

For our part, we have communicated to our North Korean counterparts that we are prepared to pursue—simultaneously and in parallel—all of the commitments our two leaders made in their joint statement at Singapore last summer, along with planning for a bright future for the Korean people and the new opportunities that will open when sanctions are lifted and the Korean Peninsula is at peace, provided that North Korea likewise fulfills its commitment to final, fully verified denuclearization.

While such a statement can be interpreted many ways, it suggests an approach that goes beyond an obsession with nuclear disarmament. It makes it look like the administration is trying to craft a truly new relationship with North Korea as laid out in the Singapore Declaration. That includes building trust, a stable peace regime, a focus on finding the remains of soldiers from the Korean War, as well as denuclearization—just as in the document signed last June.

What a difference a few weeks make. Just yesterday, a senior State Department official giving a background briefing—it was surely Biegun: language left in the transcript outs him—explained, “[N]obody in the administration advocates a step-by-step approach. In all cases, the expectation is a complete denuclearization of North Korea as a condition for all the other steps being—all the other steps being taken.” While Biegun never used the words “step-by-step” at Stanford, there was surely an expectation that far more was going to happen in Hanoi than a fixation on nukes.

And if Trump was truly trying to blow up the deal, finding the ultimate saboteur would have been easy. Enter John Bolton. Bolton, the man responsible for landing the final blow against the Clinton-era detente with North Korea that started in the mid-1990s, is suddenly running point on North Korea policy after the Hanoi summit. In a series of interviews last Sunday, he made it clear that the summit was a “success,” but in a way only Bolton could pull off. “I think it was unquestionably a success for the United States because the president protected, defended American interests,” Bolton explained on CNN. “The president’s view is he gave nothing away,” Bolton said on CBS. With Bolton now saying the administration is willing to drop even more sanctions on North Korea if they won’t disarm unilaterally, who knows where this all leads?

I do know one thing. Any nation that has dozens of nuclear weapons has options—and surrender is not likely to be one of them. That’s something President Trump should keep in mind, especially as spring is historically when the north likes to test its latest missile technologies. Here’s hoping Trump can come to his senses after the “walk,” as using North Korea for domestic leverage could blow up in his face—literally.

https://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/did-trump-and-bolton-sabotage-a-north-korea-deal/