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Possible long-term consequences of Khashoggi murder


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2018 Nov 24, 11:21am   3,066 views  10 comments

by Patrick   ➕follow (55)   💰tip   ignore  

From a patrick.net reader who prefers not to be registered:


https://www.nytimes.com/2018/09/07/opinion/saudi-arabia-islam-mbs.html

this article was written before Khashoggi, but it discusses fundamental realities of Islam, which strongly tend towards a decline of KSA as its center. Since the House of Saud is inextricably tied with Wahabism, it cannot stand if Wahabism is rejected (again) by the world majority of Muslims, or overthrown by a domestic revolt sounding in another sect of Islam.

The Khashoggi murder is important as a triggering event. It is clear that Erdogan is making a bid to reassert Istanbul's geostrategic dominance as the leader of Islam. see http://www.atimes.com/article/erdogan-mbs-islamic-leadership-and-the-price-of-silence/

also see https://www.strategic-culture.org/news/2018/11/19/iranian-albatross-us-has-hung-around-its-own-neck.html

(actually, more important than the Asia Times article, and more detailed as to the consequences and the collapse of the US-British Middle East foreign policy that are likely to ultimately have been triggered by the murder (NOTICE I am not saying Khashoggi is a FUNDAMENTAL cause, but it is the triggering event that is causing the fundamental causes to move into a slow but definitive landslide))

The importance of the Khashoggi murder is that it is having an incalculable, but humongous, impact on the willingness of Western investors to deal with KSA, and to provide the know-how required for the domestic stability and modernization of KSA.

(I cannot refind the article I read yesterday pointing out that 4.5 M young Saudis desperately need work, which is unattainable in an economy seeking diversification merely from oil funds (we know this because this strategy failed previously, bringing MbS to the Crown Princedom), and must therefore have foreign capital, and, even more importantly, foreign know-how and training. Therefore, KSA is in a desperate position when access to Western capital and expertise is denied or seriously delimited, and to avoid internal upheaval and an Islamic jihad to overthrow the corrupt Saudi house, THEY MUST HAVE MODERNIZATION CAPITAL AND KNOW-HOW FROM SOME SOURCE IN ORDER TO SURVIVE. It is not optional. I WISH TO GET YOUR ATTENTION ON THIS CRUCIAL POINT -- IT IS NOT OPTIONAL)

Having lost this from its primary Western sources, through the (yet-peaking, and probably to get MUCH more damaging) Khashoggi affair, the Saudis will very conceivably have to turn to China, which has vast capital it desires to invest, a foreign policy seeking expansive influence into the East African and South-Central Asian litoral, and a growing hostility to the United States which -- in alliance with Russia, Pakistan. and Iran -- could eventually make the northern Indian Ocean a "no go" zone for the US and British Navy (remember the fate of the Repulse and Prince of Wales in 1941). These two navies are already in considerable decline in the Eastern Mediterranean, due to the rebuilding, modernization, and incursions of the Russian Navy there, combined with powerful shore-based firepower available from Syrian positions.

However, the greater consequences of this are not necessarily military, but rather potentially economic. Note, for example, in the link just below, countermeasures that KSA could take if Congress forced upon Trump sanctions he did not desire to implement: trading of oil based on yuan instead of US dollars. I'm going to go so far as to say that the US would be then facing a catastrophic situation not less ominous than an actual military defeat in WW3, since the maintenance of the US empire is largely based on being able to force all other countries to invest in US bonds (i.e., in the US economy) at disadvantageous rates through its control of the world reserve currency. Needless to say, domestic stability (in the sense of retaining a standard of living that would no longer be possible with loss of world reserve currency status, very possibly inciting severe civil unrest if not civil war) would be gravely impaired also.

https://www.scmp.com/news/china/diplomacy/article/2168849/china-may-seek-boost-ties-saudi-arabia-it-cant-fill-us-arms

(I recognize that China would face a difficult balancing act, as it desires to have good relations and trade with both Iran and KSA)

In summation, your analysis that the Khashoggi murder is (while important) not likely to have any severe or long-term consequences is wrong. It is wrong because you aren't looking at the bigger picture of the decline of the US and Britain, their grave internal weaknesses preventing recovery, their debt, their antiquated and ineffectual militaries (aside of their strategic weapons, which they increasingly are unable to employ for fear of draconian counterattacks they cannot block), the US likelihood of losing world reserve currency status, and innumerable other problems, or the factors I have emendated in this email. To put it simply, you rested your argument on the idea that as long as the US and UK didn't act against KSA for the murder, then all would be well. That is false. Not only may Congress act apart from Trump's wishes, but the US and UK are falling into rapid decline, a centralized Asian power bloc has now formed (including oil and gas pipelines supplying China, Turkey, SE Europe, and other areas from Russia) -- one having COMPLETE AND TOTAL ability to resist any US pressure or military adventurism --, and all long-term indicators show clearly that the Israeli-US-KSA axis is failing now, and is likely to soon fail at an accerating rate, with considerable triggering impact from the Khashoggi murder.

Therefore, although the Khashoggi murder may well not lead directly to the downfall of the Saudi house, it is likely to strongly accelerate forces leading to a breakup of the US-Israeli-KSA axis in the Middle East, the unraveling of the US policy against Iran, and possibly an indirect downfall of the Saudi house IF the consequences so weakened the Saudis that that destabilizing domestic forces could no longer be contained. This would especially be so if Turkey displaces them as the world Islamic leader.

I didn't really offer a viable or coherent argument to you on the phone, so I wrote this to try and clarify (to you) my thinking.

Please remember that World War One, an event that led, within six years, to a new world allignment and overthrowing of no less than four empires (three of which had stood for centuries), was triggered by two prominent murders in Sarajevo.

Comments 1 - 10 of 10        Search these comments

2   curious2   2018 Nov 24, 2:56pm  

APOCALYPSEFUCKisShostikovitch says
(heterosexual)


Why limit yourself, or your followers?
3   MisdemeanorRebel   2018 Nov 24, 3:33pm  

Patrick says
the US likelihood of losing world reserve currency status,


Minimal, or if it does happen, will happen very slowly over a very long period of time.
. Not only may Congress act apart from Trump's wishes, but the US and UK are falling into rapid decline, a centralized Asian power blow has now formed (including oil and gas pipelines supplying China, Turkey, SE Europe, and other areas from Russia) -- one having COMPLETE AND TOTAL ability to resist any US pressure or military adventurism --, and all long-term indicators show clearly that the Israeli-US-KSA axis is failing now, and is likely to soon fail at an accerating rate, with considerable triggering impact from the Khashoggi murder.

This sounds like Pepe Escobar, whose discussion of Central Asia and the collapse of the dollar is like listening to Von Mises People on Gold reaching $10k/ounce.


Turkey is not beneficient. It seeks to replace first Saudi Arabia and then Iran as the Leader of Islam.

We have Saudi Arabia where we want them. They are utterly dependent on us now, both against Iran (whom the Europeans and Russians and Chinese want to Court desperately) and militant Fundamentalism.

Saudi Arabia doesn't have such lucrative long term contracts with Europe or China as they do the US and to a lesser extent the UK and Australia. Europeans are now a competitor, they really have been since the Cold War ended. Recognition of this is slow and belated.

They way to Control Central Asia is via the Russians, not the Chinese. We have leverage over the Chinese by virtue of being, far and away, their #1 customer for everything.
The Russians are better located, better experienced, and have every incentive to keep China AND Turkey out of Central Asia. A strong relationship between the US-Saudi-Russia would be absolutely dominant in terms of Energy Control.
4   curious2   2018 Nov 24, 3:33pm  

Patrick says

Please remember that World War One, an event that led, within six years, to a new world allignment and overthrowing of no less than four empires (three of which had stood for centuries), was triggered by two prominent murders in Sarajevo.


Some say it was triggered by a driver making a wrong turn.

The larger economic forces and realignments might happen, but I think the Khashoggi murder gets disproportionate attention because of his connections to media and his indirect connections (via sidelined Saudi princes and others) to publicity and public relations firms. Commercial journalists tend to pay disproportionate attention to anything that happens to a fellow "journalist," even an opinion columnist who was a member of the Muslim Brotherhood. (I wonder how they would react if he had been a member of the Aryan Brotherhood. The Muslim Brotherhood is worse, but gets more sympathy due to Petrodollar hypnosis about Islam.)

When Kim Jong Un reportedly fed an uncle and five other people to dogs, it caused a stir but didn't change much.
5   Strategist   2018 Nov 25, 8:33am  

HEYYOU says
Muslims killing Muslims, nothing new.


That is why we should sell them lots of armaments, and let them finish the job.
6   Ceffer   2018 Nov 25, 10:50am  

APOCALYPSEFUCKisShostikovitch says
I should anoint myself imam of the Apofanni sect of Islam which advocates a diet of beer and Jamesons and a regime of prayer characterised by thrice daily (heterosexual) fucking in the streets and a complete ban on clothes on women.

That would be a good start, but you have to fight extremism with extremism.
7   WillPowers   2018 Nov 25, 6:07pm  

WWI, the Arch Duke of Ferdinand killed by Serbian nationalist began a war in a time when it took months to mobilize an army and by time they did it was too late to turn back and by the end of the war, everyone knew what a waste of life it was.

Furthermore, I don't know how many journalist have died and no one blinked an eye:

Here's a list on Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_journalists_killed_in_the_United_States

"While friends and admirers mourn the loss of investigative journalist Jen Moore — who was found dead in a suburban D.C. hotel room Monday — a haunting final interview has surfaced where Moore details the Clinton case she was working on at the time of her suspicious death.

"Moore, an advocate who investigated abused and trafficked children, had been in the process of investigating allegations by a 26-year-old man that — as a young boy — he was sexually assaulted by Bill Clinton and pimped out at private sex parties attended by other D.C. elites."

Quote FROM: http://www.theeventchronicle.com/cabal-exposed/haunting-final-interview-surfaces-of-dead-journalist-jen-moore-her-chilling-details-of-abuse-of-alleged-clinton-rape-victim/

Did anyone call for making an international incident, or even appointing a special council to investigate in the deaths of these journalist. Was there a CIA report on the death of Jen Moore?

There are so many stories about dead journalists, some of whom stood up to the Washington corrupt establishment, who ended up dead, or completely marginalized and forgotten, the unsung heroes of the press: read: "Into the Buzzsaw"; while people are ready to start an international incident, even talk about WWI in relation to this incident and what happened, what has happened a million times before, to a person who entered a dangerous profession, Khashoggi died.

In time this incident will be forgotten and it will be business as usual.

As for "the collapse of the US-British Middle East foreign" alliance with AKA over this incident is preposterous, since the French and the Canadians said they were going to do nothing about this and the US is doing nothing. If Trump decided to make an international incident out of this, then you would have a problem with the delicate balance in the worn torn region known as the middle east.

And congress, they are going to be too busy going after Trump to worry about a dead reporter, who worked for the CIA, I mean the Washington Post.

Here is the deep state sending out another message to the cowed masses through their outlets the NYT and WaPo: We need an enemy and since We really don't want to fight the Chinese because we made them too big and strong and they stole all our technological secrets, or Hillary gave them away to fatten up her slush fund, the corrupt Clinton Foundation, and since the Russians are beginning to look like our friends again, maybe we could go to war with Saudi Arabia at least.

The last paragraph was speculative humor and not meant to be taken too seriously.

Will Powers
8   lostand confused   2018 Nov 25, 6:43pm  

LOng term consequences? Saudis will probably just adopt Russian methods in killing people they don't like.
9   MisdemeanorRebel   2019 Apr 1, 9:37pm  

US stops F-35 shipments to Turkey.

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The United States has halted delivery of equipment related to the stealthy F-35 fighter aircraft to Turkey, marking the first concrete U.S. step to block delivery of the jet to the NATO ally in light of Ankara’s planned purchase of a Russian missile defense system.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-turkey-f35-exclusive/us-sends-message-to-turkey-halts-f-35-equipment-shipments-idUSKCN1RD316

Suspend Turkey from NATO now!
10   rocketjoe79   2019 Apr 2, 12:46am  

I think the Turks actually made some F-35 parts. Share the profits! I guess we'll have to do that in Amurrica now ;)

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