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This is the kind of smart discussion I need to hear more of

By marcus follow marcus   2020 Apr 18, 9:05pm 5,516 views   56 comments   watch   nsfw   quote   share      


Yes this is the same guy that many of the most strident advocates against what we're doing got some of their arguments.

Turns out he has a much more complex, nuanced and balanced view that any right wing Trump Cuck is going to be able to relate to.

But my point, why can't we hear from more intelligent people that actually have the background and skills to look at this in a productive problems solving way.

(instead of the "how can the maga people win with this " perspective so predominant around here)


=14

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17   MisdemeanorRebel   ignore (3)   2020 Apr 19, 9:55pm     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Tim Aurora says
Because Republican are now a party of dumb and dumber


Democrats are now the party of the International Business and Academic Elite.

Landlords and low-value added food processing businesses need abundant cheap labor; a declining population is a nightmare for them.

More place at cheaper price (or same place at flat or even declining rent) and Better wages for same job.

What's interesting in the Netherlands is that Wilder's biggest supporters are Middle Aged Turks, sick of being elbowed aside by young Poles for the Handyman jobs.

Expensive Labor + Cheap Rents = Plenty of cash to circulate in the economy, creating even more opportunity.
18   marcus   ignore (11)   2020 Apr 19, 11:32pm     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

HeadSet says
We do not need population growth. In fact, if we want to maintain our 1st World life style, we better keep the population at a level sustainable by renewable resources.


You can deny it all you want, and I'm not saying it's good, but we live under a model that says economic growth is good. We call the opposite of economic growth recession or depression.

HeadSet says
If growing population were the key, places like Nigeria would be zooming to the top.


Sorry but that's not logic. I said that economic growth is America is dependent on population growth. I didn't say that population growth anywhere was all that's needed for economic growth, or that population growth is the only engine of economic growth.

This is one of the reasons why I teach Math. It's to help students be better with this kind of logic. You know, if this then that , versus, this if and only if that kind of stuff. It's important and woefully lacking in our society.
19   marcus   ignore (11)   2020 Apr 19, 11:49pm     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

NoCoupForYou says
Expensive Labor + Cheap Rents = Plenty of cash to circulate in the economy, creating even more opportunity.


Please elaborate on how such a place exists.

Seriously please. You might be fixin to teach me something.
20   MisdemeanorRebel   ignore (3)   2020 Apr 20, 12:46am     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

marcus says

Please elaborate on how such a place exists.

Seriously please. You might be fixin to teach me something.


Europe after the Black Death, fired the Renaissance. Peasants and Apprentices got really saucy about wages, and the authorities didn't have the manpower to put them down by force. It also brought endemic feudal violence way down since so many Noble Houses were wiped out and many local lords exterminated or consolidated.
The Colonial Era USA to the late 19th Century. Cheap Land and High Wages. The whole reason slavery and indentured servitude existed.
Cape Colony under the Dutch.
USA, Australia, Europe 1950-1975. And to a lesser extent, until the late 90s.
Europe would be like this right now if it didn't import millions of rapefugees.

Of course the reason for the rapefugees and high immigration is not just to keep low end job wages down, but keep rentals full. Without the tens of millions of illegals in the past 20, living in and around NYC and other large cities would be substantially cheaper. Less Demand - Same Supply = Cheaper Prices

You couldn't rent an old 2BD/1BA in North Jersey for $700/month while making $12/hour without a college degree. I did so in the mid 90s - stocking service vans for Sears brands.

If low wages and high rents were the secret to wealth, late 19th Century/early 20th Century London and New York would have been paradises for the working classes.
21   FuckTheMainstreamMedia   ignore (7)   2020 Apr 20, 5:53am     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

I’m certain Los Angeles rents would drop drastically if the estimated one million illegals living in LA County were deported.

And before anyone yaps that they live where no one else wants to, which is always the (stupid) counter argument, there was massive demand for ANY low end rental prior to the shutdown.
22   Shaman   ignore (2)   2020 Apr 20, 6:13am     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Tim Aurora says
And Republicans cut taxes by 20% on companies.


That bit wasn’t the problem, but rather a solution to making the USA a better place to do business and to take profits. We got more taxes from that deal not less.
23   WookieMan   ignore (5)   2020 Apr 20, 10:40am     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Tim Aurora says
And Republicans cut taxes by 20% on companies.

Yes, and 40-50% of people that just got stimulus checks didn't pay a fucking dime in federal taxes. Ain't that cute...
24   WookieMan   ignore (5)   2020 Apr 20, 11:13am     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

logic says
Well except for the Federal taxes they pay... Federal tax on gas, payroll taxes if still employed, Federal tax on cell phone bill... should I go on?

Federal income taxes. Sorry I wasn't clearer... The taxes you list are maybe $500/yr. Payroll taxes are built into the income, and the employer pays it, so that one is a moot point. If you're self employed then yes, you pay SS, etc.

Check it out. Most people don't pay any federal income taxes. This isn't bullshit. https://www.marketwatch.com/story/81-million-americans-wont-pay-any-federal-income-taxes-this-year-heres-why-2018-04-16

100% of those 44% will likely get $1,200 per person and $500/child if they have them. That's called free money in my world if you don't pay federal income taxes. My family paid $40k for 2019, but hey, we're rich...
25   WookieMan   ignore (5)   2020 Apr 20, 11:19am     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

I have a neighbor with 8 fucking kids. They will get $4k for them and another $2,400. You're talking $6,400 TAX FREE money. That's almost $8k for those of us that pay taxes. This is why socialism can't and will never work. I'm fucking pissed I have a neighbor getting $6,400 for what?? Not using a condom? While I pay $40 fucking K in federal income taxes?

If you disagree with what I'm saying here, you're a fucking retard. Harsh, but special circumstances call for it. Sick of people bullshitting stuff they don't understand.
26   HeadSet   ignore (3)   2020 Apr 20, 11:39am     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

I have a neighbor with 8 fucking kids. They will get $4k for them and another $2,400. You're talking $6,400 TAX FREE money.

Add to that the neighbor will get that money even if not laid off from work, are retired collecting pensions, or currently on public assistance anyway.
27   goofus   ignore (0)   2020 Apr 20, 11:45am     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Tim Aurora says
And Republicans cut taxes by 20% on companies.

NoCoupForYou says

Democrats are now the party of the International Business and Academic Elite.


Republicans brought corporate taxation to a level consistent with the OECD average. Ours was among the highest in the world, fueling yet more offshoring of US firms.
28   goofus   ignore (0)   2020 Apr 20, 11:52am     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

marcus says
:
Anyone who is honest will admit that during the OBama years there were huge increases in southern border security and in deportations of mexicans that committed crimes in the US. Yes there was aslo DACA, and more tolerance for refugees than now.
.


Obama changed the definition of "deportation" to include turnarounds at the border, a metric which had never been used before. His numbers were artificial. "Deporter-in-Chief" was a myth.

https://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-obama-deportations-20140402-story.html

"But the portrait of a steadily increasing number of deportations rests on statistics that conceal almost as much as they disclose. A closer examination shows that immigrants living illegally in most of the continental U.S. are less likely to be deported today than before Obama came to office, according to immigration data.

Expulsions of people who are settled and working in the United States have fallen steadily since his first year in office, and are down more than 40% since 2009.

On the other side of the ledger, the number of people deported at or near the border has gone up — primarily as a result of changing who gets counted in the U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement agency’s deportation statistics.

The vast majority of those border crossers would not have been treated as formal deportations under most previous administrations. If all removals were tallied, the total sent back to Mexico each year would have been far higher under those previous administrations than it is now.
29   marcus   ignore (11)   2020 Apr 20, 12:08pm     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

NoCoupForYou says
USA, Australia, Europe 1950-1975. And to a lesser extent, until the late 90s.


I was asking where such places are now.

Consider US tax rates in the 50s through 70s. I'm not saying it's simple cause and effect, but things were better for working class, especially housing costs versus labor rates, when higher increments of income were taxed much higher. But then women weren't working then in nearly the same numbers.

For the first several decades that way more women were working, even though it meant lower income for men, relative to rents, and costs of living in general, 2 incomes relative to rents were better, perhaps even now two incomes relative to rents are better than one income to rents in 1960.
30   goofus   ignore (0)   2020 Apr 20, 12:50pm     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Tim Aurora says
So you cannot have both ways.

goofus says
And Republicans cut taxes by 20% on companies.

NoCoupForYou says

Democrats are now the party of the International Business and Academic Elite.


Republicans brought corporate taxation to a level consistent with the OECD average. Ours was among the highest in the world, fueling yet more offshoring of US firms.


What's wrong with coming into line with the OECD (including most European countries) average? What do you mean "both ways"? Neither party should actively seek to undercut business, nor should they be beholden to it.
31   WookieMan   ignore (5)   2020 Apr 20, 3:16pm     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

logic says
$6,400 =$6,400. It's not almost $8k if anything it's almost $7k but more exactly $6.4k

What are you talking about?? You don't understand the point. If you get a gross paycheck of $1k, it's usually something like $850 (FICA and rough deductions) minus any pension/401k items net pay. If I give you $1k cash with no taxes paid, that would be like earning $1,200 through your employer. Do you comprehend? The government gave this family $6,400 TAX FREE. It costs more than $6,400 because they don't pay federal taxes.... That's the point and I thought that was obvious.

logic says
I disagree on what you say how does that make me a retard?

At no point did I call you personally a retard. But my above correction of your misunderstanding... well.

logic says
An employer pays half and an employee pays the other half out of their earnings

So what you're staying is that an employer doesn't account for the cash they have to pay out for both sides for payroll taxes when hiring someone as a full time employee? I get payroll taxes having run a business for the better part of a decade. Taxes HAVE to be paid regardless of how you want to slice the pie.

Employers bake it into pay/salary. Plain and simple. I've yet to meet a successful business person that has NOT brought up this part of running a business and what to pay employees. Would you hire someone and not think about the mandatory 12.4% you HAVE to pay each payroll period???? There's also the fact that the employer literally/physicaly pays that 12.4%. It's baked in. The employee pays dick without the employer and their revenue... I thought this was common sense.
32   HeadSet   ignore (3)   2020 Apr 20, 6:24pm     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

That's the point and I thought that was obvious.

It was obvious to those who actually pay taxes, and especially if they do their own taxes.

I thought this was common sense.

It was common sense, especially to those who have to make or manage a payroll.
33   HeadSet   ignore (3)   2020 Apr 21, 7:32am     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

So, headset, were is the error in my logic?

WookieMan said: You're talking $6,400 TAX FREE money. That's almost $8k for those of us that pay taxes.

You replied with: $6,400 =$6,400. It's not almost $8k if anything it's almost $7k but more exactly $6.4k

Wookieman clearly is talking about after tax money. A person who pays taxes would have to earn almost $8,000 to net the same after tax income that the person who got $6.4k tax free. This is very obvious, but you responded as if WookieMan did an overzealous round up of $6.4k to $8k.
34   WookieMan   ignore (5)   2020 Apr 21, 7:56am     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

HeadSet says
This is very obvious, but you responded as if WookieMan did an overzealous round up of $6.4k to $8k.

I'm also not claiming my math is 100%. It could be closer to $7,500 depending on your tax rate. It doesn't matter. The family I'm referencing doesn't pay federal income taxes at all. That's the point.

Let's say I were to receive the $1,200 stimulus as an individual somehow. If I'm paying federal taxes, cool. No harm there. If I'm not though, that tax free money has to be paid by someone and it's not that person or family I'm referencing. We're talking $6,400 that would be roughly $8k from an employer during normal times. To show it differently the payment is equivalent to $76,800/yr if paid each month. You'd have to get a job that pays roughly $96k to NET that amount. Where would that $20k come from? Other peoples money, earnings, businesses.

I'm admittedly maybe not laying this out the best way. Basically if you get free money and don't pay federal taxes, where the free money came from, that's kind of bull shit as someone that paid $40k in just federal taxes alone in 2019. I'm not saying it's bad, it likely was needed, I just don't want to hear people bitch about government not doing anything for them. Government wipes the ass of millions upon millions of lazy fucks in this country. A couple getting $2,400 out of nowhere, whether they have a job or not, is a fucking historic event. It's not to be taken lightly.
36   HeadSet   ignore (3)   2020 Apr 21, 9:42am     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Moreover, why, in your calculations, are you leaving out the Federal income tax that would have to be paid on $6,400?

Because WookieMan specifically said the $6,400 payment was TAX FREE. He also specifically said those "that actually do pay taxes" when talking about the $8k, unlike the family he was referencing.
37   Fortwaynemobile   ignore (3)   2020 Apr 21, 11:05am     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

marcus says
FuckTheMainstreamMedia says
What you are not correct on is that a guest worker program would have easily solved the matter.


I didn't say that. I'm just speculating on why corporate America tolerates it. It's certainly not becasue of cheap employees. Very small numbers of these people work for corporations, except possibly in the businesses Trump is in. Hotels, Country clubs, etc. This is an example of an area where the media somehow gives Trump a pass. You have to know there are hundreds or maybe thousands of illegals working at Trump properties. I guess at many he could say they are just licensing his name and it isn't his policies. Still, you aren't going to hear him condemning this practice at properties with his name.

How many illegal immigrants are there ? I really don't know. Many are catholic and want to have more than 2 children. Are you really going to claim that this doesn't p...


They work in every fucking industry. All goods, all factory, all production. Yes teachers are still all legal so you don’t see it. Iny life I see illegals work everywhere because they are cheap and hence profitable for businesses everywhere. And if they could toss you out and replace you with Jose they would.
38   Onvacation   ignore (7)   2020 Apr 21, 12:14pm     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

marcus says
Very small numbers of these people work for corporations, except possibly in the businesses Trump is in. Hotels, Country clubs, etc. This is an example of an area where the media somehow gives Trump a pass. You have to know there are hundreds or maybe thousands of illegals working at Trump properties

Do you have any examples of Trump hiring illegal aliens or is that just the TDS talkin'?
39   Onvacation   ignore (7)   2020 Apr 21, 12:20pm     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

marcus says
It's important and woefully lacking in our society.

Yep. Problem solving skills (math and logic) are the second most important thing successful people need to learn.
40   Shaman   ignore (2)   2020 Apr 21, 12:26pm     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

marcus says
:


All professions listed are members of the Clerisy: a class of workers who are directly employed by the wealthy elites and owe total allegiance to their masters. If they weren’t faithfully promoting propaganda and only truths which are convenient to their employers, they wouldn’t be employed.
This is such a naked truth that only a math teacher could fail to see it.
41   SunnyvaleCA   ignore (1)   2020 Apr 21, 1:59pm     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Onvacation says
marcus says
Very small numbers of these people work for corporations, except possibly in the businesses Trump is in. Hotels, Country clubs, etc. This is an example of an area where the media somehow gives Trump a pass. You have to know there are hundreds or maybe thousands of illegals working at Trump properties

Do you have any examples of Trump hiring illegal aliens or is that just the TDS talkin'?
Trump would counter that his businesses must remain competitive, so, he must use the same labor practices that his competitors do. The theory is that if all hotels had to employ only US citizens then none would be at a labor disadvantage. Sure, there would be some adjustments in demand for the (now) more expensive hotels but that might shake out as government lowering taxes for everyone because they no longer have to supply as much welfare. Maybe people would learn to prefer the services of less labor-intensive industries and less labor-intensive foods, etc. This could better align supply and demand.
42   Onvacation   ignore (7)   2020 Apr 21, 2:32pm     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

logic says
What is the point of posting proof if you are going to give tump a pass because he didn't do the actual hiring of the illegal?

So you got nothing.
43   Onvacation   ignore (7)   2020 Apr 21, 2:35pm     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

logic says
he didn't directly hire them so that doesn't count.

Why do you give him a pass for employing illegals?

Can you see how you contradict yourself?

Go ahead and post where Trump's employees hired illegal aliens with implicit or even explicit direction from Trump.
44   Onvacation   ignore (7)   2020 Apr 21, 4:49pm     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

logic says

I'll let you research the stories for yourself. Hey maybe it was fake news.

IF a Trump company hired illegals it would be common knowledge. So yeah, fake news.
45   Onvacation   ignore (7)   2020 Apr 21, 4:52pm     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

logic says

Wouldn't the best way to stop the hiring of illegals be to hold the owners responsible. In my view it would be much more effective than just holding the hiring managers responsible. Do you agree or disagree.

Agreed! Let's prosecute all of those politicians who sold us out to China while were at it.
46   Onvacation   ignore (7)   2020 Apr 21, 5:27pm     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

logic says
I think he is a con man like many other realtors.

So it's the conniving real estate mogul that caused the TDS. For others the derangement is caused by the pussy grabbing. Many SJW's are infected by the fact that Trump wants to put America first and doesn't care which bathroom you use. Another major source of TDS infection is the fact that he "stole" the election from the first woman president.

Trump Derangement Syndrome, It's real.

Personally I think Trump is a pompous narcissist with above average, not genius, intelligence who really cares about America and the American people.
47   WookieMan   ignore (5)   2020 Apr 21, 8:41pm     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

logic says
The $6,400 might not ever be paid back but interest will be paid on it until it is

You're missing the point. I'll keep it real basic. If you don't pay federal income taxes you should get nothing. That make sense?

You're full of shit if you don't think I"m paying for it either. I'm not a billionaire that pays a bunch in taxes, but I'm a middle class American that pays a higher percentage than most of those cats. I have every right to be pissed about people getting cash that haven't earned it. Sorry.
48   MisdemeanorRebel   ignore (3)   2020 Apr 22, 4:43am     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Trump seeks Kleos.

It's better than selling out for money.
49   WookieMan   ignore (5)   2020 Apr 22, 5:14am     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

logic says
You should be equally pissed about all the hand outs to corporations. Some of them pay dick in federal income tax.

Okay, so you do understand... This is no different than the people not paying taxes. Both are BS. So we're kind of agreeing in a way, maybe not totally.

My wife and I are both W-2 employees and have little to zero choice in our taxes outside of retirement funds reducing taxes. I'm a unicorn in IL and have low property taxes, but I max out the SALT deduction with state income taxes alone. I love charity, but I'm not donating 5 digits to be able to itemize. Can't do it much now, but we love to vacation so we're never home and never really wanted some McMansion, so our mortgage interest is low. So we pay the full boat in taxes every year.

A large sum of federal taxes come from $100-400k families that are W-2 (aka no choice for taxes). Mind you we're all fine and doing well, it just doesn't make sense. This is one area where I lean left and do feel we should tax the super wealthy individuals at a somewhat higher level. Not insane, but yeah, I'm still not sold on Trump's tax cuts for my situation. It was a wash.

Basically I'm of the belief that everyone should have some skin in the game if you earn an income. You 100% used some government service to get to that job that someone else paid for. Pitch in. Obama's line is perfect here for people AND corps. You didn't build that. I sure did pay a lot more than 90% of the country though.

And I'm not being sarcastic when I say this. I'm not trying to combative or pissy in general with you. I'm just pissed everyday I walk to get the mail and see that house (it looks like shit too) knowing they didn't pay a dime for anything, they got $6,400 and I have two kids and get nothing because we make too much. I just don't understand how someone cannot be upset with that I guess.
50   Onvacation   ignore (7)   2020 Apr 22, 7:23am     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

ThreeBays says
Fake shill scientists can be spotted a mile away.

Like Michael Mann who won't give up his Hockey stick data.
51   HeadSet   ignore (3)   2020 Apr 22, 7:36am     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

I max out the SALT deduction with state income taxes alone. I love charity, but I'm not donating 5 digits to be able to itemize.

If you max out the SALT, aren't you itemizing anyway? And maxing out with SALT alone implies that you paid over $24k in state income tax. Then you have a local income tax as well? I presume you are not a fan of any new local bond issues.

never really wanted some McMansion, so our mortgage interest is low

Good choice, saving on interest beats paying on interest just because you get a 25-33% tax reduction on amount of interest paid.
52   WookieMan   ignore (5)   2020 Apr 22, 7:58am     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

HeadSet says
If you max out the SALT, aren't you itemizing anyway? And maxing out with SALT alone implies that you paid over $24k in state income tax. Then you have a local income tax as well? I presume you are not a fan of any new local bond issues.

Caps at $10k under Trump's tax plan. Was done to fuck over high tax blue states, which I think is fine. So between property tax and state income tax I'm at about $15-16k with the state income tax and property tax. Only $10k could be deducted if you itemize over the $24k standard. Standard deduction is $24k as you state. Besides mortgage interest it's not particularly easy or worth it to get above $14k additional spending to start itemizing, especially in my situation with a cheap mortgage. I know it's easier in coastal areas, but I got my house for $85k. So my mortgage interest is dick.

I'm in a weird area where the tax cuts weren't a benefit or a loss. They basically just stayed the same, even with the tax bracket change/reduction. Maybe I'll buy an expensive house to amp up the mortgage interest (hell's no).
53   Shaman   ignore (2)   2020 Apr 22, 10:56am     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/04/22/no-lockdown-in-sweden-but-stockholm-could-see-herd-immunity-in-weeks.html

Sweden didn’t crater its economy and is still about done with Covid. Herd immunity in weeks.
54   WookieMan   ignore (5)   2020 Apr 22, 10:57am     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Shaman says
https://www.cnbc.com/2020/04/22/no-lockdown-in-sweden-but-stockholm-could-see-herd-immunity-in-weeks.html

Sweden didn’t crater its economy and is still about done with Covid. Herd immunity in weeks.

"But your 'expert' isn't as good as my 'expert' you fool" Counting down 3. 2. 1....
55   Shaman   ignore (2)   2020 Apr 22, 11:00am     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

ThreeBays says
Bullshit. It's the science hating rightists who think science is a narrative


Is this the same “science” that brought us all the faulty and completely inaccurate information about
1)mask wearing
2)whether the disease was transmissible between humans
3)creating tests that didn’t work
4)advocating lockdowns as the only solution and proposing months and even years of lockdowns, meanwhile Sweden did zero lockdowns and had comparable mortality rates and almost achieved herd immunity already?

You Lefties like to pick “science” that you agree with and discount the actual scientific method. How many genders are there again?
56   WookieMan   ignore (5)   2020 Apr 22, 11:46am     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Shaman says
How many genders are there again?

19... Covid 19

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