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Today on The Babylon Bee Podcast, Kyle and Ethan talk to James Lindsay about the cult of wokeness, its ideology and its tactics, and also about how the landscape of Christianity is kind of like Narnia to an atheist.

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Auto-transcript, not good, but at least you can get the gist of it:

Hi everybody welcome to the Babylon Bee
interview show today we're talking to a
returning guest James Lindsay that's
Kyle man and I'm Ethan Nicole hi James
Lindsay is you guys saw him if whoever
actually didn't see him is back when her
to interior audio podcasts we had him
and his associate Peter Boghossian
they're well known for the grievance
studies papers where they punked the
academic I always have a tough time
using all the words involved in this
because I didn't go to college they
punked all the academics with these
papers that oh yeah she's trying to show
how bogus at all was Punk'd is the
academic word for what happened yeah for
sure I mean it could be sorry James
welcome back to the Babylon Beet podcast
which is now in video so we can see you
sure yeah thanks for having me
yeah we hope you're not disappointing
anyone with how you look like they had
this disappoint people with how I look
constantly right there I never meet your
heroes folks never meet your heroes are
you man spreading right now yes under
the we can't see it busy down there we
go okay this is super lame but the only
room in my house that has good lighting
is a spare bedroom so this is actually
all set up on a bed not a desk so I have
to man spread when I do my podcasts
because stick it around let is in post
or something to get it sits on the side
of the bed right up against the managers
such male fragility this is what happens
when you're like real and don't have a
studio like you guys do
yeah I am man spreading but that's this
guy you guys I'm like I mean it happens
well you were just expressing before we
came on a couple things one that you're
exhausted right now you're you're
getting pounded by just Twitter life
well know Twitter is hard but but I've
stopped mostly paying attention to my
notifications which is a life-changing
thing it's so much better yeah I get a
lot of direct messages like an insane
amount sorry
is open or is it pure yes okay yes but
that's only a fraction of the problem
and I don't want to like you know a lot
of people talk regularly on there but
it's people I've already let in so even
if they were open they're still in okay
so I literally am getting probably close
to a thousand direct messages a day
right now Terry email is worse
my email is people send me paragraphs
they're attachments it's like somebody
sent me this thing earlier and I really
wanted to help him out and it was like
could you read over this thing and tell
me what you think of it and it seems
like a really important thing because it
has to do with some government stuff and
it's a hundred and sixteen pages I'm
like yeah yeah I mean I've only got like
seven of those today so far and it's
still morning let me jump right on it so
yeah I'm getting hammered right now with
with people wanting me to check stuff
out and explain Sephora to them and for
them and to decode the woke language
that is basically forwarded itself into
literally every office maybe except not
yours in the world but if I tell it if I
tell the public that it's not in yours
so you guys should just disclaim me
right now that you'll get cancelled and
we don't want that yeah but we have a
plan we're gonna hire Robyn D'Angelo to
come we're gonna pay or $15,000 we're
gonna double it to defend the white
Christians yeah that's pretty rich you
know that's there you go yeah it's gonna
cost you guys a sense for that we got
started here was that you guys probably
the Babylon Bee right now it kinda seems
to me to have its finger on the pulse of
what's going on better than just about
anybody so we'll get we'll get some more
endorsement from me to really screw you
guys over I think put it on your website
so okay a couple questions because well
first a question I didn't think of it's
kind of a personal question
no no and I also I don't know if I don't
know it's bad really say that I mean
because you have your email address and
right there on your profile on your on
Twitter at least you used to I know if
you still do I still do but you keep
yourself very open and inviting of
people to reach out to you that's right
what is the personal reason that you you
what do you want but you want that it's
like what is your mission what is your
goal okay so the original thought behind
that was actually that if I had a
university affiliation I would have a
university email account that would be
publicly available people be able to go
look it up on my faculty website and
find it so people say let ourselves who
wanted to get in touch with me would
have a direct way to do that so I
thought well that's a good idea people
do want to get in touch with me and some
of that is important and valuable and it
is actually worked out quite a lot to my
to my benefit and to other people's
benefit I also like my Street informants
I mean I'm drowning in Street informants
right now but I do like my Street
informants to it so I kind of have a
pulse my finger on the pulse of what's
going on you know in in different
organizations and and although right now
the problem is it's like everybody's
forwarding me hey look what my
corporation or look at my university
department or look what my school or
what kids school or whatever look what
they've implemented and it's like word
for word almost the same thing every
time like thousands of times so it'll
just kind of become one email now that
with the thousand signatories on it it's
really kinda crazy so I wasn't quite
prepared for the country to descend into
woke riots and then everybody to realize
that I kind of know some stuff about
woke and then everybody to reach out to
me at once but I'm hearing that you know
like my colleagues like Helen pluckers
who did the the grievant Studies papers
with me and has told me that she for a
while was spending you know more than 10
or 12 hours a day just trying to keep up
with an answer emails she was getting
and of course she has a public-facing
email being editor of area magazine so
there are a few of us I'm hearing it
from basically everybody who's been
speaking up about the potential pitfalls
and dangers of the woke ideology I'm
hearing it from basically everybody that
worked all just getting
hundreds and thousands of emails and
requests for help and explanation so a
lot of people are suddenly aware that
something is wrong in the state of
Denmark well this episode is brought you
by Fiverr and on Fiverr you can get a
per own personal secretary for $5 a week
they're probably from Russia and they
probably won't understand your emails
but uh just kidding it's not my we're
not respond well I mean I hear ya I
actually you know it is a thing and it's
actually the the issue with the the
pressure is it so much of what's coming
to me
it's not there is some frivolous stuff
but most of its not and so I'm really
trying to you know sort through what is
and is not important and trying to give
you know some some answers where where
it's important I mean a lots going on
very yeah even if all I do is to reply
with a link to my website I think that
helps so um yeah nice so what's the
coolest story that you've gotten in your
email what's the craziest story that's
just blown your mind geez man I don't
even know if I'm allowed to tell it you
know it is actually worse yeah because
when you're allowed to tell me are we
talking about like a positive story then
or uh these aren't cool man those
stories are no we want like what yeah we
do like stories but Wow is mal here the
they're cool like that
and I was like mind blowing like yeah I
get school is about rocking horrifying
I've had a large number of people write
to me about their spouses suddenly
becoming radicalized especially if
they're in interracial relationships and
their marriages are like falling apart
and they're desperately reaching out to
me to ask how to deal with the fact that
they're their partner has gone crazy and
in specific they're saying you know so I
finally asked my wife I finally asked my
husband do you think I'm a racist and
they've been together you know maybe
like 15 years in a lot of these cases
10-15 years and they say things back
like well I don't know you well enough
to know if you're a racist it's like
that's intense that's not the craziest I
don't know if I can tell the craziest
one I really don't want to get anybody
like I don't want to be trained but he's
confidence but I think
story actually worth telling so it turns
out that it's an individual reached out
to me who has a rather strongly
marginalized sexual identity and and I
think gay and trans at the same time and
so he has his job everything's going
well he gets along with his colleagues
they're like work friends right but
they're not you know like buddies or
whatever but you know he isn't it's
working out well then apparently the
Department figures out that his
sexuality or sexual status and decides
they need to have a sensitivity trainer
come in to the department so this is
what happens I mean I've heard stories
where I'm really helpful this is what
happens in like all of these things I've
had people reach out to me in various
racial contexts and this is a particular
one though that was was trans and so
what happened was they had this
coordinator come in and sit down and
like they put the guy in like a seat in
front of the whole room like the toy
room style rooms I'm imagining and
explained what it means to be gay and to
be trans and like really kind of weirdly
clinical woke language and then they
went around and they made every person
in the room start confessing their
homophobia and transphobia as like some
kind of an apology so this guy like
storms out cuz after like just a few of
these it's he's listening to his
co-workers talk about how they have
these deep-seated prejudices and always
have against him and hate his entire way
of being in the world and like all this
crazy stuff so then he storms out and
then after the fact of this sensitivity
training it's like people in the office
like every relationships now weird it
has to be all about that and now they're
coming up to them like and I've heard
this from again from races you know race
sensitivity training aftermath as well
so now it's like people are coming up
and saying to him you know like man I've
spent the last three days really
reckoning with how much I hate people
like you and it's just like this is his
office experience all day and they start
asking like trying to be cool or
whatever so they start trying to ask him
like really invasive questions about his
sexuality and sex life
like that's his entire office experience
now and they're all crying and
apologizing and talking about like my
religious beliefs prevent me from
accepting people like you but I'm trying
and it's killing me and it's like
they're looking for absolution from him
and finally ends up quitting his job
he's got chased out of his job by this
and like I said I've heard this from
several different people in several
different contexts I've heard it you
know again with race where these people
are subjected to these sensitivity
cultural responsive trainings or
whatever and then they have to sit there
and listen to all their their white and
often white adjacent whatever that means
Brown Asian Hispanic whatever all their
colleagues are talking about how they're
secretly anti black and they've just
discovered it and they all these racist
things they've said and done and their
lives and it's like halt our bed it's
like that just destroys any opportunity
that there's gonna be a functional
working relationship or professional
relationship or human relationship going
forward and it's like that's what this
stuff is like all these companies
companies schools universities like
freaking everything is onboarding this
stuff like crazy and this is what you're
subjecting your your workers to when you
start doing these like confession
sessions a woman reached out to me an
Indian woman and she's telling me that
they had to have a brown fragility
training at their work and so they came
in and surrounding bility yeah it's
really even worse than white their
agility to it's basically the same thing
except you also have to deal with the
fact that you're a victim of white
supremacy while you're upholding it
because brownest has anti blackness
built into it also apparently now I am
and so things are getting crazy it's
getting dark and so anyway they have
these trainings or but no I can't I
can't you can't say that either bleep
that you used to use the Jew word
Christian broadcast yeah I know what
you're supposed to do when you mess up I
was Catholic I know how to do exactly
what to do
that's what this woman though she emails
me and it's like the the other
but the other side of it right instead
of having to listen to how racist you
know you see like your co-workers have
secretly been against you for years or
whatever according to the doctrine
there's this other aspect of the brown
fragility training where it's like all
right now you all have to start
interrogating your anti blackness as
brown people and so they separate all
brown people made them go through this
and then they're interrogating it and
then it's like we need to interrogate
your feelings of defensiveness let's go
around the room and have all of you
admit it so imagine you're the person
who's like what is this crap you're
being 40 like what if you don't have
anything to say what if you're like ah I
don't I don't really have these feel
I've never done that you know you're
just gonna get called Alfred refusing to
arrogate your feelings and you're gonna
get called defensive and the brow
fragility or white fragility if you're
white or white adjacent fertility or
white passing fragility tornado is gonna
sweep you up see then you you kind of
have to find some story in your past and
like gin it up and like of course you're
gonna have at least like three or four
people and they're already crying by
this point and it's what a disaster
I mean I keep getting stories told to me
about what happens when these things you
know really come into the workplace not
where it's like oh my company made us
sit through a zoom thing and I kind of
rolled my eyes the whole time and it's
like you know but when when it's like
these things are like I don't even know
what to call that but it's it's not cool
and I don't see how anybody in their
right mind believes that this is gonna
improve their working environment or
educational opportunities or or whatever
it's so and then of course what happens
if everything it becomes more delicate
and everybody's afraid everything that
these people have been trained now to
see is going to be interpreted as more
racism and so all of the department oh
the the organization oh the company of
the society is even more racist it's
like a self-fulfilling prophecy of
racism and sexism and transphobia and
homophobia and ableism and fatphobia and
classism and I mean we could just
continue with what judith butler called
that exasperation et cetera did Robyn
D'Angelo also write Browne fragility I
don't know that there's no she's working
on a series or not maybe she's gonna do
the whole rainbow she actually has quite
a few books
somebody sent me a paper she wrote in
2013 that talks about white neurosis
that's a formal term that all white
people have and the racial cray-cray
I'm not making that up that's the
original cray cray racial cray cray
and the racial cray-cray apparently is
today what what white people have as a
result of their racial neurosis and
white fragility their white I'm sorry
neurosis and white fragility and so that
makes them crazy around the topic of
race but then that craziness gets pushed
on to people of minority races
I'm sorry mine ties to races we forgot
that they're being forced to be
minoritized which is secretly a way to
make sure that even if there's a
numerical majority that they're still
victims so it's like I don't know what
you do I mean this is mental but I think
Brown fragility do I just saw it on
Twitter a few weeks ago and started
hearing it from like immediately and now
it's in corporate trainings and and all
of this crazy stuff so Brown fragility
Brown complicity Brown privilege these
things are like the hot things so that
they can basically nuke Asians Mexicans
and other Hispanics and people from
South Asia we're just very backward it's
going backwards this I mean this is like
like they built a bullet train one of
those bullet trains that goes like as
fast as an airplane almost straight into
like the battle base is what this is
like how do we not only how do we go
back to like the the very racist past
that they're that they use is the only
evidence of their stuff which was
hundreds of years ago but also like how
do we get there literally tomorrow like
as fast as humanly possible so it's it's
not a it's not a cool thing and yeah
people are freaking out and that's so my
email is like sort of a nightmare
you mentioned in these trainings it it's
very common in cults to have a thing
where if they put someone in the middle
and everybody you either like praises
them or a lot of them out they would
shame them or you'll break them down
until they're like weeping on the floor
that's right it sounds so cult-like and
I know that you're you talk a lot about
how woke ism is a religion and you make
you actually did a really detailed
detailed youtube video I saw on it
figured I just steal that and have you
just say it again on here and then
people to watch this video instead of
that one yeah I mean that's the best way
to do it is a recycle my content no
actually I've really been pursuing that
idea since like two thousand thirteen or
fourteen I didn't know it was called
woke I don't think it was really called
woke ISM at the time or I knew that it
was called social justice because I saw
that happening right in the community
and that they had this project that was
like exactly this that was called
atheism plus and if he went to their
website and looked it up what does it
plus what he thought it was it was plus
social justice sounds like a streaming
service or you Richard Dawkins video
drink they would not know it was it was
atheism plus social justice and that's
why I used to call it religion - as a
matter of fact religion - God is what it
was and so that was like 2013 I was
already like saying that so I've been on
this a while and I've written some
really deep stuff you know so we can
talk about how it acts as a religion in
terms of like you know a sociological
durkheimian understanding of religion I
can talk about in terms of like
Kolakowski 's development of mythology
and so you have this kind of social
entity as Durkheim would describe it
that acts like he described religious
social entities and then you tack on to
a mythological structure as the way the
Polish floss for Kolakowski laid it out

and ultimately I think that I've kind of
summarized it much more neatly now is
that I think that a religion is kind of
you know it's a sociological object with
a lot of things happening and so on and
so forth but with its key key project is
is to provide moral law which we would
easily distinguish in the world today
from secular law secularism is a
separation of moral law firm' state law
is to the degree that that's possible
and now you have something that's
definitely pushing a very clear moral
law and is trying to enforce it within
its own precepts but it's also trying to
take state power so secularism actually
very kind of neatly applies here but I
mean most people don't really respond to
that abstract stuff they want to hear
stuff like being woke you know awoke and
if you will as being born again and they
want to hear they want your stuff like
that privilege operates in a parallel
capacity to the Calvinist concept of
depravity or total depravity which is
not sinning but it's the want to sin
it's the corrupt nature that makes you
want to sin so with privilege you have
the corrupt nature to want to maintain
your own in this case obvious or racial
or sexual superiority and so you have
you know a lot of concepts that run in
parallel that way you you know kind of
this vague concept of social justice
that acts as kind of a god figure and
then you have it split into tripartite
diversity equity and inclusion that
actually spells out Dei D which is Latin
for God and it's like that's weird
that's a bit weird you know yeah so I
mean you actually there are tough people
love to hear these kinds of parallels
how people look at what's going on I
don't see witch hunts is hard to say on
rogon I wouldn't Rogan last week and
maybe you guys caught that I don't know
but I talked about how there are kind of
like up religions and down religions in
a sense and like an up religion is
looking up to God and is aware of sin
and is trying to you know do right but
their focus is on that harmony that that
that healing that Redemption that grace
that forgiveness that comes with looking
up to you know the perfect Almighty
Creator sky Danny trying that image yeah
the sky daddy does you would as you
would you know at least a Zeus have
lightning bolts I don't know what this
one's doing we've got it all you're just
a guy daddy yeah but no down religions
though are obsessively looking at like
the profane the sin the dirt they live
them even ed story like that and yeah
sort of like that and so this is you
know you mentioned the word call it's
very like idolatrous where now this
worldly saying I know I get the low
getting to talk to Christians and get a
little theological with this flex my
is on credit but no it's it's it's like
this worldly thing race identity and so
on becomes an idol and like you said
they're very cult-like dynamic so some
of my emails that I've had are from
these Jehovah's Witnesses are like I
know this I know what's happening here
the separating you from your group
breaking you down emotionally to try to
fill you in you know to get you to feel
vulnerability guilt and shame and so on
and fill in the resolution of that with
the doctrine that you then just keep
deepening that's a cult tactic that's
not a religious tactic religions you
know I mean as far as I understand
Christianity the idea is like hey we're
here we have this truth and if you want
to want to partake in that it's good and
come on in but then you always have
those huckster dudes who are like you
know what do you call somebody who lies
a liar which commandment does that do
you want to go to hell you want to burn
in hell for eternity comfort you need
Jesus Christ Yeah right I mean you can
even start naming people who are kind of
in that vein I can't remember who the
very famous person who actually did that
like one of those names it was an infamy
and they probably ended up you know
getting caught some pedophilia scam or
something like that something bad but
there's always like this this temptation
to cults that are determine epilating
vulnerability and especially guilt shame
and then trying to stuff a doctrine on
top of it
I mean Calvinism says that humans are
fallen but it also speaks mostly if
grace and Calvinism is one of the harder
core Christian denominations looking at
this right so it does admit humans fall
in nature but it also speaks of you know
grace at least irresistible grace for
the elect if nothing else and then using
that as a model since it's not known who
is and who is not elect to any but God
so therefore it is a model for everybody
to try to aspire to in order to try to
you know hopefully be led in that
direction so there's there's a
difference between you know a religion
and some poisonous cult thing and this
thing like I get people are like I'm a
next Scientologist alarm bells going off
and then they're like I was in this
weird backwards
Christian cult was some lunatic that had
his whole thing and alarm bells going
off I was your hope as witness alarm
bells going off I was in communist
Romania I talked to a guy the other day
a Romanian guy he was like this is bad
you know this is it yeah this is this is
a thing that's setting off the alarm
bells of people who have escaped cults
or escaped communists which is called
circumstances and so yeah it's a it's a
bad it's a bad place and you know people
are getting ashamed and these weird
things we described already in these
meetings and what follows after them
it's just really a not bad bad thing so
Robyn D'Angelo would be the Joel Osteen
of woke ISM my piece and then she's a
he's cashing in the difference is I
don't know if Joel Osteen believes it
like I don't know but I think Robyn
D'Angelo does believe it I think this
exact oh yeah in fact I don't it's past
sincere I know you're not allowed I'm
not a psychologist so I can do what I
want you're not allowed to diagnose
people from a distance but there's
actually I don't know if you guys know
that there's actually a religious form
of OCD that's called scrupulosity it's
very common themes it's not - yeah it
does it has like something like yeah
yeah please come on stay with me that's
exactly that's Robyn D'Angelo the whole
thing he could make like a like I'm a
Monopoly board put her head scrupulosity
but no the deal is that it's religious
OCD where basically you feel like you
haven't you haven't resolved your own
complicity and sin correctly and
therefore your family for the Hellfire
right and it's actually super common and
Catholics it's somewhat common in
Mormons and you sometimes see it and the
stricter variants of Calvinism and I
don't know it probably shows up in Islam
as well I actually just don't know on
that but it is a form of OCD where
you're trying to like ow
out damn spot Lady Macbeth yourself for
your complicity in sin and I think that
D'Angelo whose mother was a elapsed nun
who went on to become a leftist social
activist
I do think that the Angelo that's not
even a real last name has has exhibits a
rather strong case of scrupulosity and
to read white fragility is basically a
hundred and fifty seven or eight page
confession of that and then projection
of it on to all white people it seems
like another way that woke ISM tends to
be like a cult is this control of
language you know like all really
changing I'll click on some thread of
progressives that are debating you know
am i racist are you racist and the words
they use the terms that are you know
redefined or invented terms it's bizarre
oh yeah the that's I mean that's why I'm
writing the encyclopedia on oh I got to
do my like little stick you know like hi
James Lindsay new discourses calm never
got any cyclopædia their translations
from the walkush social justice
cyclopædia new discourses calm as my
commercials but no you can go on there
and I have a since Christmas I started
at Christmas and I started writing a
social justice encyclopedia because of
this problem of the terminology and so
many terms there are specialized terms
and all of this other stuff you know
that are just academic terms with so
many terms were all familiar with
everyday language racist anti racist
fascist anti fascist diversity equity
inclusion justice social justice
critical all of these terms have like
very specialized different meanings so
you know they say well we need to engage
critically with this you know so if
somebody publishes something and I say
well we need to engage critically with
this and and everybody that's kind of
grown up learning critical thinking in
schools is like yeah critical thinking
that's very good we need to do that but
what they mean when they say we do
engage critical this is something
different what they actually mean is we
need to find all the problem attics in
it and turn it into a woke thing we need
to burn out all the woke nests when they
say we need diversity what they mean is
we need diversity of authentic voices
which here we still sound good but what
they define is an authentic voice as
somebody that is authentically
representing they're oppressed
systemically oppressed identity as
described by the critical social justice
theory in ideology
so what they mean is people who have
different identity markers but who can
speak the way that they say that you
have to speak about having those
identity markers so diversity means lots
of critical theorists of different
colors and a minimal number of them who
happen to be white allies who they
rather intensely excoriate so I mean the
whole thing is this giant rabbit hole of
twisty turvy language and and then like
you guys said with the cult thing right
so often the the mechanism that drags
people into cults it's not how you you
really do like cult control but it's
it's that manipulation of vulnerability
so one of the maneuvers is you say oh
well I'm not racist you know I think
this and that and you'd get into the
whole thing and they say you don't even
know what racism means so they
immediately make you feel stupid right
that's what racism used to mean but we
have a much more sophisticated updated
definition out and you don't even know
what it is so how are you gonna say
you're not racist if you don't even know
what the definition of racism is this is
a much more complicated thing you don't
even understand systemic racism and the
systemic nature and structural nature
and then they're bombarding you with
this kind of like gish Gallup flower but
I don't know if you can say that in
Christian land yeah so they are they're
bombarding you with this and they're
making you feel inferior and dumb and
then how are you gonna resolve that
you're gonna go find out what the
definition means and you have to
properly engage with it which means
engage with it the way they tell you to
and if you don't then you haven't
engaged with it properly that's all
through their literature so it's this
weird bullying thing where they're using
specialized language but they're also
creating a massive amount of
vulnerability around people by trying to
make them feel stupid and inferior for
not understanding the stuff that they're
talking about which kind of gets updated
or approximately every like 45 minutes
so it's kind of hard to keep up