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Private Membership Associations (PMAs) free you from most state controls

By Patrick follow Patrick   2021 Oct 10, 5:41pm 376 views   35 comments   watch   nsfw   quote   share      


https://www.pmasolutions.us/

I went to a talk yesterday about what PMAs are and how they liberate us from state control. The basic idea is that any organization which is not open to the general public is not regulated like a business is, nor does it need to file for any permission to operate.

So, for example, there are many places to drink in dry counties in Texas. They reason they are not subject to laws prohibiting bars is that they are technically not bars at all, but private clubs which one has to join to enter. I've been to such a club. Before you can order, you have to fill out a membership application and pay some nominal fee. Then you can drink, because it's a private establishment, not open to the general public.

Similarly, people can open "educational associations" which are not schools (they have to be careful never to refer to it as a "school" apparently) and then they are free from all vaxx and mask mandates.

While this idea of private association has been upheld repeatedly by courts at all levels, one might think that the liberal big-pharma/government establishment would stomp on it. The reason they don't is that there are some very powerful PMAs which wouldn't like that, such as the AMA and the Bar Association. So the protection for some elite groups turns out to have the beneficial effect of protecting ordinary people - if they just know about it and set it up the right way.

PMAs would be exceptionally useful in building a parallel society
1   PeopleUnited   ignore (1)   2021 Oct 10, 7:58pm     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Wasn’t Wookiee thinking of setting one of these up in his own town?
2   Helloworldtoo   ignore (0)   2021 Oct 10, 8:18pm     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Cool. How are taxes filed? Can a PMA do anything or limited functions?
3   Patrick   ignore (1)   2021 Oct 10, 8:19pm     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Anything.

I don't know about taxes.
4   mell   ignore (6)   2021 Oct 10, 8:56pm     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

They're def the way to go but I'm pretty sure here in leftoid retard CA they have to follow indoor mask and jab rules. I'm member of one by proxy, will inquire.
5   Patrick   ignore (1)   2021 Oct 10, 8:59pm     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

@mell I'm pretty sure they don't have to follow those rules, because the rules apply to businesses which can have their licenses revoked.

The PMA has no license, so it cannot be revoked.

Another good tip: A PMA does not have to let anyone in without a warrant, ever. At the presentation I went to, the woman told how the state will indeed try to send inspectors to private education PMAs to look for "health code" infringements because the state is very jealous of its power and therefore hates PMAs. But all that needs to be done is to never let them in without a correctly filled-out and signed warrant. It's also helpful to know everything that has to be filled in on a warrant so you can reject invalid warrants, which is another strategy they use.
6   mell   ignore (6)   2021 Oct 10, 9:10pm     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Patrick says
@mell I'm pretty sure they don't have to follow those rules, because the rules apply to businesses which can have their licenses revoked.

The PMA has no license, so it cannot be revoked.

Another good tip: A PMA does not have to let anyone in without a warrant, ever. At the presentation I went to, the woman told how the state will indeed try to send inspectors to private education PMAs to look for "health code" infringements because the state is very jealous of its power and therefore hates PMAs. But all that needs to be done is to never let them in without a correctly filled-out and signed warrant. It's also helpful to know everything that has to be filled in on a warrant so you can reject invalid warrants, which is another strategy they use.


Ok I will inquire but even if so most will not try to withstand an assault of govt bureaucrats and ask for warrants. But new ones specifically formed for this purpose with a freedom mindset may do so. Just to clarify, a private club that is members only with dues that has a bar and restaurant does not operate on a business license? Or is a PMA even more "private".
7   Patrick   ignore (1)   2021 Oct 10, 9:16pm     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Right, from what I understand so far, a PMA that has a bar and a restaurant is no different that someone serving alcohol and food in his own home. No license needed.

On the other hand, the people serving the food could be sued if they make someone sick unless there is an agreement in place, so PMAs have constitutions and by-laws that members have to agree to, and those rules are a private contract between people.
8   mell   ignore (6)   2021 Oct 11, 11:46am     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Patrick says
Right, from what I understand so far, a PMA that has a bar and a restaurant is no different that someone serving alcohol and food in his own home. No license needed.

On the other hand, the people serving the food could be sued if they make someone sick unless there is an agreement in place, so PMAs have constitutions and by-laws that members have to agree to, and those rules are a private contract between people.


I inquired and they have a business and liquor license - so it must be a different model. It's members only though as well (and friends/guests of member if member is present). Are you sure you can simply establish a PMA in CA? I see there are quite a few in TX but I would assume the leftoid retards to fight it tooth and nail.
9   Patrick   ignore (1)   2021 Oct 11, 11:50am     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Right, a true PMA would not have a business license at all, because it isn't a business.
10   mell   ignore (6)   2021 Oct 11, 11:51am     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Patrick says
Right, a true PMA would not have a business license at all, because it isn't a business.


But they can charge money for drinks and food from members? Maybe we should try and establish one just for testing purposes.
11   Patrick   ignore (1)   2021 Oct 11, 1:08pm     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

I think you "share expenses" instead of "charge a price" legally.

And this is all about the legal distinction between private groups and public businesses.

I would be interested in setting on one up. The talk I went to was by a woman who was of course charging for her advice and custom PMA charter. She charges $1800. That does not seem to be really needed imho. Some self-education should suffice.
12   HunterTits   ignore (4)   2021 Oct 11, 1:15pm     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Patrick says
I would be interested in setting on one up. The talk I went to was by a woman who was of course charging for her advice and custom PMA charter. She charges $1800. That does not seem to be really needed imho. Some self-education should suffice.


What about a grocery store? Why are COSTCO and Sams considered businesses even tho they are membership clubs?
13   Patrick   ignore (1)   2021 Oct 11, 3:03pm     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

I don't know which laws they are under.
14   PeopleUnited   ignore (1)   2021 Oct 11, 7:06pm     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Costco is a business. You don’t need to be a member to shop there. It is a little known fact that anyone can buy a gift card for Costco, and anyone can shop there with a Costco gift card.
15   Patrick   ignore (1)   2021 Oct 12, 1:16am     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

https://patrick.net/post/1341849/2021-10-12-nba-star-kyrie-irving-refuses-to-get-va

Last week, New York City said the Nets' practice facility, the HSS Training Center, is a private business and not subject to vaccine mandates, which allows Irving to join the team for practice.


So this supports the contention that a private business is not subject to jab mandates.
16   MisdemeanorRebellionNoCoupForYou   ignore (1)   2021 Oct 12, 8:15am     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Patrick says
PMAs would be exceptionally useful in building a parallel society


Thanks Pat.

I was thinking of Establishing "Gentlemen's Clubs" - not the stripping kind - as a way to create patriot areas.
17   Patrick   ignore (1)   2021 Oct 12, 1:06pm     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

@MisdemeanorRebellionNoCoupForYou I had that same thought myself.

I think it would be quite viable, kind of like the Masons, Moose Lodges, Oddfellows, etc used to work.
18   Patrick   ignore (1)   2021 Oct 14, 2:45pm     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Here's the site of the woman who gave the talk:

https://sourcepma.com/
19   Shaman   ignore (2)   2021 Oct 14, 4:04pm     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

I joined an Elk’s Club once like twenty years ago just for the bar and cheap drinks. Wasn’t in it long before I moved away and forgot about it. But it worked that way: have to be a member to drink and membership was like $50 or something.
20   Patrick   ignore (1)   2021 Oct 14, 5:33pm     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

I went to the Elk's Club bar in San Francisco with a member of the club. It's a really nice building, but not kept up well over time. I think it used to be a very rich organization.
21   Ceffer   ignore (6)   2021 Oct 14, 5:53pm     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

They have to honor private clubs because of all those private clubs the oligarchs belong to to plan our control and demise.
22   MisdemeanorRebellionNoCoupForYou   ignore (1)   2021 Oct 14, 9:13pm     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Private Clubs I think are a necessity, it gets us off the internet and making alliances with locals in meatspace.
23   GreaterNYCDude   ignore (0)   2021 Oct 15, 7:00am     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

@Patrick & @MisdemeanorRebellionNoCoupForYou

I like the idea. In my experience, part of the challange is vetting of potential members and requirements for membership. You don't want just anyone to show up.

That and you need some allure and mystique. If your just a bunch if dudes sitting around drinking it won't gain any traction.

There should be a head organization (with probably can also be a PMA) that charters all subsequent branches so there is consistentncy from group to group.

Funding is also a perpetual issue. Overall membership on fraternal organizations is down and most are struggling to survive, at least on the local level. Many Masonic lodges have consolidated and sold off their real estate holdings due to high carrying costs.

Getting tax exempt status would help.. but I'm not sure if that is available to a PMA structure organization.
24   WookieMan   ignore (6)   2021 Oct 15, 7:27am     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

PeopleUnited says
Wasn’t Wookiee thinking of setting one of these up in his own town?

Yes. Still am. I don't want to entertain or have fun at our house or a neighbors house. It's a pain with 3 kids and just life in general. We're in a small town. We usually hang out in someone's garage. #lame

Problem I'm coming across is initial buy in. I've got a group of guys where we'll play darts, pingpong, pool, etc. We'll obviously have drinks. Ladies welcome as well. We have neighbors that would buy in. There's a full kitchen at the place I want to get. Only a couple of other families are willing to buy in at this point. We'd need at least 20-30 families or singles to get it done.

I'm trying, but the wife isn't 100% on board and she's the sales gal. I suck at sales to be honest. Better at managing the situation is my skill. Accounting, cleaners, landscape, etc. Keeping the place updated and looking good.

Not a lost cause yet, but still trying. It's the perfect spot and the building was originally a bar/restaurant. We have too many in town, so it won't reopen or have someone buy it for that purpose. So we'd have leverage on our side price wise for purchase. Just need more people. I think some people don't understand the idea of it. It's a hard sell to drop $5k for a hang out space.

Starting to realize some of my friends brag about money they don't have. We could have the building in three months. I think it would be cool, but not getting the reaction I was hoping for from people.
25   Automan Empire   ignore (1)   2021 Oct 15, 8:53am     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

WookieMan says
Just need more people. I think some people don't understand the idea of it. It's a hard sell to drop $5k for a hang out space.

Starting to realize some of my friends brag about money they don't have.


I have some experience in this space. "Build it, and they will come... and continuously take more than they ever gave." Also, better have a firmly written leadership and command structure, behavior standards, and ejection causes and procedures. You find some of the people are kind of casual assholes at the maybe-buy-in stage, wait till you have people who think their $5000 makes them King Shit of the place with more authority and power than YOU. Wait till a Karen spouse decides to appoint herself Queen Bitch of the social scene on the strength of her Husband's one-share buyin.

mell says
Just to clarify, a private club that is members only with dues that has a bar and restaurant does not operate on a business license?


Not sure in your state, but in CA, ANY kitchen serving food is subject to inspection and incredibly detailed regulation, down to the color and texture of the paint on the walls. There are procedures to follow for labeling, multi-use utensils, multi-compartment sink and hot potable water available at all times, sanitation procedures, then the Fire Department will be in to check for conforming fire suppression system (ongoing maintenance cost there), vent hood condition and grease trap maintenance, as well as required extinguishers (ongoing maintenance cost), lighted exit signs, exit maps posted, and the hardware and locking status of doors on all egress routes.

I was involved with an all volunteer organization that raised money with pancake breakfasts. One sunny Sunday morning a health inspector happened upon us, and issued what amounted to a criminal summons to the person most in charge that day. He had to go to an administrative hearing downtown, and the person took mercy upon him seeing it was a broke-ass entity whose main purpose and activities was NOT serving food. If it was ANY kind of ongoing kitchen operation, he wouldn't have walked out of there without thousands of dollars in fines. As it was he lectured him on how regulated any "commercial" kitchen is and the commitment needed to set up and maintain a legal and compliant one.
26   Patrick   ignore (1)   2021 Oct 15, 8:55am     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Automan Empire says
in CA, ANY kitchen serving food is subject to inspection and incredibly detailed regulation


Are you absolutely sure this applies to PMAs?

What if you have a dinner for other people in your house? How is that different from a PMA?
27   HunterTits   ignore (4)   2021 Oct 15, 9:20am     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Barter exchange groups probably are PMAs. you have to sign up as a member. Yet, 25% of the trades have to be in cash as per IRS regs.

And I am sure that liquor laws apply to the clubs that serve alcohol.
28   Automan Empire   ignore (1)   2021 Oct 15, 10:04am     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Patrick says
What if you have a dinner for other people in your house? How is that different from a PMA?


Private organization in a commercial building is absolutely categorically different from guests in a private domicile. This will absolutely NOT fly as an exemption for operating a kitchen in a zoned commercial space, no matter how you charter or self-classify your organization.
29   richwicks   ignore (3)   2021 Oct 15, 10:07am     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

HunterTits says
And I am sure that liquor laws apply to the clubs that serve alcohol.


Well, back on the East coast, I heard they have "clubs" just for drinking. Some guys run "clubs" in their garage, it's basically a bar. Seems to be a thing in New Hampshire according to my brother in law.
30   Automan Empire   ignore (1)   2021 Oct 15, 10:19am     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

richwicks says
Seems to be a thing in New Hampshire according to my brother in law.


It's all fun until someone you served gets a DUI afterward. At best they'll throw you under the bus to try to deflect heat for a heavy citation. At worst you are held criminally and financially responsible for damage, injury, and death if there's an accident. If your organization was required by law to have a liquor license and you didn't that's a whole new suite of problems you'll then have to deal with.
31   Patrick   ignore (1)   2021 Oct 15, 10:52am     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Automan Empire says
Private organization in a commercial building is absolutely categorically different from guests in a private domicile. This will absolutely NOT fly as an exemption for operating a kitchen in a zoned commercial space, no matter how you charter or self-classify your organization.



I'm saying that it should not be in a commercial building. Not in a zoned commercial space.
32   GreaterNYCDude   ignore (0)   2021 Oct 15, 10:56am     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Directors insurance is a must for whomever is in charge.

If it's technically a BYOB policy eveyone should be liable for their own consumption.

As I understand it from the OP, the point of this is to have a commal space where members can gather free from mask / vaccine mandates and government overreach and not simply looking for a place to booze it up.
33   richwicks   ignore (3)   2021 Oct 15, 11:10am     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Automan Empire says
It's all fun until someone you served gets a DUI afterward. At best they'll throw you under the bus to try to deflect heat for a heavy citation. At worst you are held criminally and financially responsible for damage, injury, and death if there's an accident. If your organization was required by law to have a liquor license and you didn't that's a whole new suite of problems you'll then have to deal with.


This is New Hampshire and Maine. I think technically they are called "hunting lodges" or something. It's mostly for the sticks. Rural areas are different than metropolitan ones, some in good ways, worse in others.
34   Automan Empire   ignore (1)   2021 Oct 15, 2:05pm     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Patrick says
I'm saying that it should not be in a commercial building.


OP's talking about a former bar building, so the zoning and use is already baked in. Ed: By OP I meant Wookieeman.

Ed 2 to add. Some areas, the utilities will not connect service until the city provides you a "certificate of occupancy" which means your intended use getting pre-vetted by the city.
35   WookieMan   ignore (6)   2021 Oct 15, 8:01pm     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Automan Empire says
Ed 2 to add. Some areas, the utilities will not connect service until the city provides you a "certificate of occupancy" which means your intended use getting pre-vetted by the city.

This is true. I know half the village board so that’s a breeze. Might not be for others though in other states.

Guests are the biggest issue. I want it to be zero gain financially and BYOB everything. Set up a board. Buy the place outright cash in an LLC and pay taxes, insurance and utilities. Accounting would be a breeze on my end. Then it’s just keeping the place clean and maintained. I could mow the lawn. Inside we just keep it clean as a club. Toss up a few cameras in case we get a lazy member that’s not respecting the space.

Daytime people could work from the place. We’ll have fun for sure, but we’d only invite people that are responsible party people. Almost everyone would be able to walk home as well. It’s kind of a perfect setup. Would help downtown businesses as well as we’d likely grab food and bring it back. It won’t open as a bar/restaurant unless we find 1k people to move into town.

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