patrick.net

I think landing on the moon and Mars are not really compairable because of distance and gravity.

I think almost as remarkable as manned moon landing was the Russians landing a remote control rover on the moon with video feed in 1970.

RC2006 says

I think landing on the moon and Mars are not really compairable because of distance and gravity.

Well why not, look at Earth, so there we have three extremes. The Lunar landing was tested on Earth first, but for some strange reason. Elon Musk has to reinvent the wheel and start over from scratch, when he invented his reusable launcher. IIRC, there never was a successful lunar landing tested on Earth, it critically failed in every test.
Yet we sent Astronauts up anyway to nail a landing that never ever succeeded once in Earth's atmosphere.

Tenpoundbass says

the defense that too many people would squeal and reveal the hoax, has been debunked.

Covid is still a current event, so it doesn't make sense to compare that to the space program where the participants long since retired out and aged up, organically losing every "hook" that conspirators could potentially hold over them to maintain silence. To claim "Covid debunked the notion that all conspirators in every possible conspiracy would ever squeal" on this basis is a weak and completely verbal "proof."

Tenpoundbass says

Why didn't we send a bigger buggy, it could have gone places that the tiny Mars rover couldn't have?

The cost to fly each milligram to mars is much higher, and a small rover needs far less power to operate. That mission didn't NEED to go places the small rover went. IIRC the thing failed because the wheels physically broke, the outcome of numerous tradeoffs and optimizing of of size/strength/weight.

Tenpoundbass says

I have always maintained the 50/50 stance on if the moon landing was a hoax or not.

I've always been pinned in the 99% yes we went to the moon position. The claims and methods of "debunkers" tend to be easily refuted using the most basic fundamentals of fields such as physics and photography. Like all nutter conspiracy believers, they tend not to discriminate among evidence as weaker or stronger. Literally everything is equally considered 100% proof of their version of the conspiracy, and defended with the same zeal and vigor as every other element of their case. People get polarized by them as well, either, to the point where everyone is a 100% ally on board with literally everything they believe, or they're a sheeple/agent/co-conspirator who 100% believes "everything the MSM feeds them" and they invent out of whole cloth a model of their persona as a dupe/shill/conformist, 100% compliant and complicit with EVERY government deception, scam, and evil plot for total control in their catalog of conspiracy theories. Their estimation of the entirety of a stranger's being can get 100% flipped on a dime, as in, "I liked and admired X but they said Y one time so they're part of the conspiracy after all, with 100% planning and forethought. The same processes are visible in people who believed in the WMD/Saddam/BinLaden suite of bullshit, and that the last presidential election was stolen.

Automan Empire says

Tenpoundbass says

I have always maintained the 50/50 stance on if the moon landing was a hoax or not.

I've always been pinned in the 99% yes we went to the moon position. The claims and methods of "debunkers" tend to be easily refuted using the most basic fundamentals of fields such as physics and photography.

I want to pipe in on this.

If the US really didn't land on the moon, that there's a FAR big conspiracy than that. It's that all the nations in the world conspired for some reason to perpetrate that hoax.

richwicks says

, that there's a FAR big conspiracy than that. It's that all the nations in the world conspired for some reason to perpetrate that hoax.

You mean like the 15 days to slow the spread. And Island nations that haven't had a visitor or a single person leave in months or years suddenly all had a raging covid pandemic at the exact same time all of the land locked countries did. The same thing happened to small towns in the center of the US, how was it possible that they had a pandemic that spiked the same curve as coastal cities. For this to have been real, we would have expected New York, LA and Miami to have raging cases, months and months before Toadsuck Arkansas ever saw their first case. But as we all recalled from the National Panic Covid map, the US looked like it had the measles all at the same time. It's just not possible. Past flues in the US, we saw populated cities have cases, and it took months and months before the first case would be reported in Wyoming or rural Kansas.

Automan Empire says

Covid is still a current event, so it doesn't make sense to compare that to the space program

Here's what's different, the entire space program/Cold War was under the aegis of the military. All information flow was between the individuals in charge and the various subcontractors didn't communicate with each other. This was akin to Oak Ridge Tennessee, during the Manhattan Project, where much of the new town didn't know the purpose of what the town was for.

In contrast, anyone with any knowledge of biology & chemistry, could figure out that the Covid was treatable and preventable including yours truly. And thus, the more horseshit one hears in the news and from the talking heads, the more incredulous the entire situation becomes.



Tenpoundbass says

there never was a successful lunar landing tested on Earth, it critically failed in every test.

I believe the primary on-earth footage was Armstrong having to eject from it, during testing. If he was expected to land with that thing then he's either braver than I thought or suicidal.



Automan Empire says

The cost to fly each milligram to mars is much higher, and a small rover needs far less power to operate

Also, NASA had an unlimited budget to work with, costing some $280B in today's inflated adjusted dollars. No one's going to pony up that much cash for a 'Bridge to Nowhere' expedition today.

https://www.planetary.org/space-policy/cost-of-apollo

Rin says

Automan Empire says

The cost to fly each milligram to mars is much higher, and a small rover needs far less power to operate

Also, NASA had an unlimited budget to work with, costing some $280B in today's inflated adjusted dollars. No one's going to pony up that much cash for a 'Bridge to Nowhere' expedition today.

https://www.planetary.org/space-policy/cost-of-apollo

With the above said, here's my conspiracy theory ...

By the time of the Apollo I debacle on the platform which killed Grissom, White, & Chafee, it was probably clear to the guys in charge that at best, they could drop some payload on the surface of the moon but an actual lander, without getting the crew killed, was probably highly unlikely within a year and a half.

So as in the movie, Capricorn One, they made up a narrative.

And that's what they did, they sent equipment over to the moon, using the most expensive tech of the time to get the coordinates and alignments right. The journey of the astronauts may have happened in terms of the distance traveled but w/o the concluding segment.

And then, the rest happened on a movie set using cameras, props, etc.

Since the information flow was tightly controlled and directed, it appeared to be happening real-time to the viewers on TV.

Rin says

By the time of the Apollo I debacle on the platform which killed Grissom, White, & Chafee, it was probably clear to the guys in charge that at best, they could drop some payload on the surface of the moon but an actual lander, without getting the crew killed, was probably highly unlikely within a year and a half.

That was due to using almost pure oxygen in the Capsule, which they had activated before launch.

The takeaway was to use a mix rather than almost pure Oxygen, as others had recommended but was ignored because it added some complexity, until the simplicity caused a disaster.

If you speed up the film to account for the 'fake low gravity', they end up looking like Cartoon Characters on Speed.

Tenpoundbass says

richwicks says

, that there's a FAR big conspiracy than that. It's that all the nations in the world conspired for some reason to perpetrate that hoax.

You mean like the 15 days to slow the spread. And Island nations that haven't had a visitor or a single person leave in months or years suddenly all had a raging covid pandemic at the exact same time all of the land locked countries did.

This is a little bit different in that there are MANY nations that think this "pandemic" is bullshit. I've said over a year ago, this is an economic reset:

https://www.patrick.net/post/1335674/2020-10-20-we-will-never-go-back-to-normal

This is just cover for it. Nations under the US dollar as a reserve currency, THEY are going through this shit. China and Russia - they're done with it.

Considering the shit I've see around Challenger, if the only source to verify moon-landing is government, fucking fake!

RC2006 says

I think landing on the moon and Mars are not really compairable because of distance and gravity.

I think almost as remarkable as manned moon landing was the Russians landing a remote control rover on the moon with video feed in 1970.

I'd agree - distance and gravity make Mars much more challenging.

MisdemeanorRebellionNoCoupForYou says

The takeaway was to use a mix rather than almost pure Oxygen, as others had recommended but was ignored because it added some complexity, until the simplicity caused a disaster.

Yes, this was the case, however, the societal issue of Apollo I was that it was a public relations disaster. And then, ppl talking about the notion that Gus Grissom was murdered, which even his son, Scott Grissom, still believes to this day as Gus was too 'loose' on his opinions on the Apollo program itself.

All and all, between that and then, 1.5 years in the future, where you have a flawless landing w/o the lander crashing, killing both Armstrong & Aldrin, makes for great conspiracy theory fodder.

If Moon landing would have been fake, Soviets would have been all over it to humiliate their adversaries Americans.

Bd6r says

If Moon landing would have been fake, Soviets would have been all over it to humiliate their adversaries Americans.

---

Agree, they had the means, motive, and opportunity to deliver up proof it was being faked in real time. AFAIK no iteration of Russian government officially considers the American moon landings fake.

The moon landing happened.
There are satellite pictures of stuff left there, e.g. cars and the portion of the landing modules.
Rocks were retrieved which are different from anything found on earth; they can’t fake those.

Another point, is the parallels between how Lefties today get violent to defend the narrative when it is questioned, is like how Aldrin, Armstrong and other Apollo Astronauts would coldcock someone that suggested the Moon landings weren't real. Rather than just laughing at them, shrugging your shoulder and say... "Well believe what you want to believe".

Which is how, most rational achievement reachers react to their doubters.

Automan Empire says

AFAIK no iteration of Russian government officially considers the American moon landings fake.

A glowing report about Americans on Moon in a Soviet newspaper in 1969

Tenpoundbass says

Another point, is the parallels between how Lefties today get violent to defend the narrative when it is questioned, is like how Aldrin, Armstrong and other Apollo Astronauts would coldcock someone that suggested the Moon landings weren't real. Rather than just laughing at them, shrugging your shoulder and say... "Well believe what you want to believe".

Which is how, most rational achievement reachers react to their doubters.

Not really, nowadays, I would like to clock ppl who say that 'vitamins & supplements don't work because Tony told me so'.

Automan Empire says

AFAIK no iteration of Russian government officially considers the American moon landings fake.

Read my revised conspiracy theory where ships made it there, dropped off the cargo, but no actual landing due to the notion that the gyroscopics of the lander were still faulty.

AstroNOT

The moon landing hoax is perhaps one of the biggest lynchpins holding this big lie together that we call modern society, and at $58 million per day funding requirements - its well past time for them to be exposed. Stanley Kubric sure cast one hell of a spell (except for that last shot showing the LEM takeoff - who was left behind to film it and pan the camera as shot up from the surface? that one always gets me!) Of course the lack of stars in the background was also peculiar.

Tenpoundbass says

Another point, is the parallels between how Lefties today get violent to defend the narrative when it is questioned, is like how Aldrin, Armstrong and other Apollo Astronauts would coldcock someone that suggested the Moon landings weren't real. Rather than just laughing at them, shrugging your shoulder and say... "Well believe what you want to believe".

Which is how, most rational achievement reachers react to their doubters.

That's because they're Old School Americans who would pop a crazy liar in the face and not be all "Everybody is entitled to their opinion, besides muh insurance rates..."

Rin says

Read my revised conspiracy theory where ships made it there, dropped off the cargo, but no actual landing due to the notion that the gyroscopics of the lander were still faulty.

Telemetry and manual guidance.

Moonhoaxers forget there were multiple landings and a fly-by.

Conspiracy theories about Moon landing give conspiracy theorists a really bad name. I can not exclude that this has been planted by three-letter agencies to distract from most of other so-called "conspiracy theories" which actually are true, such as covid, 9/11 inconsistencies, etc....

MisdemeanorRebellionNoCoupForYou says

That's because they're Old School Americans who would pop a crazy liar in the face and not be all "Everybody is entitled to their opinion, besides muh insurance rates..."

+1000000

MisdemeanorRebellionNoCoupForYou says

Moonhoaxers forget there were multiple landings and a fly-by.

6 and I knew that because I'm not a Moon hoaxer.

MisdemeanorRebellionNoCoupForYou says

Telemetry and manual guidance.

Sure, by Apollo 14, which gives 'em nearly 3 years, Feb 1971, past all the failed lander tests, to get it right.

Bd6r says

Conspiracy theories about Moon landing give conspiracy theorists a really bad name. I can not exclude that this has been planted by three-letter agencies to distract from most of other so-called "conspiracy theories" which actually are true, such as covid, 9/11 inconsistencies, etc....

Its socially engineered to be percieved that way - just look into the creation of the phrase 'conspiracy theorist' (now coined as 'conspiRACIST'). These are very strong spells they cast. Samuel Clemmens said it best: "Its easier to fool someone than to convince them they've been fooled" - and anybody that gets triggered & upset looking into these things prove this statement correct.

Rin says

Read my revised conspiracy theory where ships made it there, dropped off the cargo, but no actual landing due to the notion that the gyroscopics of the lander were still faulty.

15 years ago I'd be calling you crazy and shouting at you. Today I don't care, and appreciate people's utter distrust in government.

It's doubtful that the US didn't make it to the moon. For one thing, the rocks recovered are extremely unique, and unless everybody that has studied them (and a lot of people have) are lying about them, these are from the moon. They are filled with micrometeorite punctures.

I don't see why gryoscopes should be a problem, we've been using them I think since at least the 1930's for navigation in planes. Getting to the moon is relatively easy compared to getting to literally any other planet. The problem with the moon is the cargo, which are people.

The problem with going to the moon was that it was POINTLESS to go to the moon. It was a PR thing, not a scientific endeavor. We stopped going there because there was never any really good reason to go there. I doubt the technology has actually been lost, but it's largely obsolete. Ever see the computers for the Apollo missions? They were just glorified calculators.

I'm doubtful the video records could have been faked. This would normally done today by showing movement in slow motion, that should be pretty easy to see and detect given modern technology.

As far as I will go in conspiracy here is that some of the footage was falsified or was made to be deceptive.

clambo says

The moon landing happened.
There are satellite pictures of stuff left there, e.g. cars and the portion of the landing modules.
Rocks were retrieved which are different from anything found on earth; they can’t fake those.

Tha so-called 'moon rocks' were analyzed & proven to be petrified wood. As for satellites - I think you mean satelloons (NASA is the biggest consumer of helium).

richwicks says

We stopped going there because there was never any really good reason to go there. I doubt the technology has actually been lost, but it's largely obsolete. Ever see the computers for the Apollo missions?

The problem there is, you can't say there was never a good reason to go. When in the early 2000's they were talking about Water and minerals on the Lunar polar caps.
There's so much we would have used the moon for, to further our technology to even begin to ponder about going to Mars. The calls to go to Mars, when we haven't given the Moon a proper Human Technology update since our fastest computers were 0086.

Our lack of interest to go back, even it it is just to advance technologies for much larger goals. Is about as credible as Osama Bin Laden was shot in the face and dumped in the Ocean by Obama. When he died about 9 years earlier in a JDam bunker buster strike in the side of a mountain in Fallujah.

Bd6r says

If Moon landing would have been fake, Soviets would have been all over it to humiliate their adversaries Americans.

You assume they're really adversaries. You are aware almost all Soviet HW came from US companies, and US banks funded the fascist takeover and murder of the Tzar. Relying on any government for honesty is always a bad bet...

clambo says

The moon landing happened.
There are satellite pictures of stuff left there, e.g. cars and the portion of the landing modules.
Rocks were retrieved which are different from anything found on earth; they can’t fake those.

Whose satellites? Who verified the rocks origin?

richwicks says

The problem with going to the moon was that it was POINTLESS to go to the moon. It was a PR thing, not a scientific endeavor. We stopped going there because there was never any really good reason to go there. I doubt the technology has actually been lost, but it's largely obsolete. Ever see the computers for the Apollo missions? They were just glorified calculators.

I think I read they had 5K of RAM, VIC-20 equivalent. Most of it was done by pre-programmed telemetry.

Another waste, the International Space Station.

You need several people just to keep up on maintenance. Any less, and they're spending the vast majority of their time on routine tasks with almost no time for any research.

If we were serious, the top things to get going would be centrifuges to create gravity and testing out months of using a single robust life support, along with craft-to-craft refueling.

I think by the 4th or 5th STS, NASA was beginning 8th graders to send in science experiments; the Shuttle was another waste of time. Just a super expensive way of getting into space for a few days.

NuttBoxer says

You assume they're really adversaries. You are aware almost all Soviet HW came from US companies, and US banks funded the fascist takeover and murder of the Tzar. Relying on any government for honesty is always a bad bet...

There was no gain for US in going to Moon, other than to rub it in on Soviets who won the space race. There was no gain for US to fake Moon landings, other than to rub it in to Soviets. If that is true, then Soviets would rub back if landings were faked. There has to be rational reason to fake/lie about something. I can easily see this about covid, 9/11, etc, I don't see it about Moon landings. Soviet archives were almost open for a year or 2 in 1991-2, nothing of this type came out.

The fact that international banks funded RSDSP in 1917 has little if any bearing on events in 1960's. Also, it was probably mostly Germans who brought Soviets to power - their funding of Lenin and getting him to Russia in 1917 is well-documented. About other banks/companies - Lenin once said that we will hang capitalists with the rope they will sell us (aka they will do anything for profit, even if it means that they suffer from it later).

Bd6r says

The fact that international banks funded RSDSP in 1917 has little if any bearing on events in 1960's. Also, it was probably mostly Germans who brought Soviets to power - their funding of Lenin and getting him to Russia in 1917 is well-documented. About other banks/companies - Lenin once said that we will hang capitalists with the rope they will sell us (aka they will do anything for profit, even if it means that they suffer from it later).

But butthurt Reactionaries don't like the fact that their Beloved Monarch Kaiser literally scooped up Lenin, popped him on a Train, and gave him Jewgold Krautmarks to finance the Soviet Revolution.

(This isn't aimed at you, Nuttboxer. It's just that the demoralized-cum-Reactionaries-in-despair swing out at everything, and ironically the one best sourced and clearly successful attempt at financing Marxists came from a Militarist German State rather than Jews or Freemasons)

MisdemeanorRebellionNoCoupForYou says

Lenin once said that we will hang capitalists with the rope they will sell us (aka they will do anything for profit, even if it means that they suffer from it later).

China is excelling on this score.

MisdemeanorRebellionNoCoupForYou says

But butthurt Reactionaries don't like the fact that their Beloved Monarch Kaiser literally scooped up Lenin, popped him on a Train, and gave him Jewgold Krautmarks to finance the Soviet Revolution.

Same on other side - Communists don't like this fact either.

Bd6r says

There was no gain for US in going to Moon,

Responding to this and a similar comment upthread. There was much gain from going to the moon. The Apollo missions took us past a point of diminishing returns from RETURNING to the moon over and over. The moon is a harsh environment to maintain a life support system upon, on top of the expense of getting people and things there in the first place.

We haven't gone back to the moon because there's nothing for us to DO there.

Automan Empire says

Responding to this and a similar comment upthread. There was much gain from going to the moon. The Apollo missions took us past a point of diminishing returns from RETURNING to the moon over and over. The moon is a harsh environment to maintain a life support system upon, on top of the expense of getting people and things there in the first place.

Moon landings surely advanced SCIENCE! and engineering but that part falls by the wayside in case of faked landings.

In principle though, all of the SCIENCE! and a lot of engineering could have been done without even leaving orbit of the Earth, but the funding would not have been there (it was available because Soviets needed to be beaten).

Competition, folks.

Nothing with stagnate things faster than the end of the nation state and one world government.

Bd6r says

Moon landings surely advanced SCIENCE! and engineering but that part falls by the wayside in case of faked landings.

Even if faked, the actual work done did advance science and engineering. I was alive then, and yes, I drank the Tang.

LOL! Some of the far outs say that aliens use the Van Allen belts to sterilize the human race from space travel because we are too primitive and murderous. NASA may have sent something or somebody up there, but most certainly what we saw and heard was theater. The modules are apparently tin can crates when you see them in real life, barely suitable for earth purposes much less outer space.
The propaganda, as usual, was too important to be left to the coldness, uncertainty and terror of outer space. NASA's purpose was to advance rocket and weapons technology under cover of exploration, and to keep the American taxpayer on board paying for the enterprise. Since NASA hierarchy were ratlined Nazis, you really think they had any regard for the truth?

One of the first things that the Chinese rover did was analyze surface and rocks, and none of the spectrometer readings agreed with stuff from the US expeditions. Also, moon rocks and martian rocks can be obtained from snows and ice from Antarctica. That was one of the reasons that Werner Von Braun was so hot and bothered about Antarctica. Pick up preserved fragments that landed here, and claim you went there?

Particle accelerators can pepper earth rocks and make them appear to be micro meteorite impacted moon rocks.