« prev   random   next »

1
0

Georgism Thread


425 views  57 comments             share      

by Patrick   $0.28 total tips   💰tip   follow   2022 Aug 5, 4:00pm  

Having read an abridged version of Henry George's Progress and Poverty, I'm trying to clarify in my own mind exactly how it could work, and what legitimate objections might be. Georgeism seems to explain property prices in the Bay Area very well, and how the higher salaries from increased productivity around here get sucked up by non-productive landowners.

These links look pretty good. I just read the first one. They all pretty long, but seem worth the read:

https://astralcodexten.substack.com/p/your-book-review-progress-and-poverty
https://astralcodexten.substack.com/p/does-georgism-work-is-land-really
https://astralcodexten.substack.com/p/does-georgism-work-part-2-can-landlords
https://astralcodexten.substack.com/p/does-georgism-work-part-3-can-unimproved
https://www.theirishstory.com/2016/10/18/the-great-irish-famine-1845-1851-a-brief-overview/

The main impediment, politically, would be the reduction in land prices. But perhaps some tech billionaires would throw their weight behind Georgism purely out of self-interest. They would come out ahead if income tax is reduced as much as the land value tax is raised.



Comments 1 - 40 of 57   Next »    Last »

1   HunterTits   2022 Aug 5, 4:09pm  

Patrick says

The main impediment, politically, would be the reduction in land prices


And in the US, it can't be implemented at the federal level w/o either via apportionment (which is a political non-starter) or a Constitutional amendment like was done for the income tax.

But it can be done at the state and local level. In fact, that is where it would be best achieved if it were to wipe out other forms of taxation, including state income taxes.
2   Patrick   2022 Aug 5, 4:10pm  

OK, I accept the elimination of state income tax and sales tax in return for implementing a land value tax!

Seems like a good place to start.
3   HunterTits   2022 Aug 5, 5:41pm  

Patrick says


OK, I accept the elimination of state income tax and sales tax in return for implementing a land value tax!

Seems like a good place to start.


About 6 or so years ago.there was a group pushing a proposition for an LVT to replace both taxes. I think the rate was 3-4% or so.
6   Patrick   2022 Aug 5, 5:53pm  

Let's say we start with just the CA sales tax.

Eliminating that and increasing the land value tax to raise the same amount of revenue would actually result in more than that revenue collected by the government.

Why?

Because the entire state apparatus for collecting and monitoring sales tax would be gone!

Not only that, businesses would earn more because they would not have to spend time or money collecting sales tax.

Win-win, except for non-productive parasitical landowners.

And remember that the sales tax is regressive because it penalizes low income people much more as a percentage of their income. So all the progressives would be impelled to support the elimination of sales tax in favor of an increased land value tax.
7   richwicks   2022 Aug 5, 5:58pm  

Patrick says

Because the entire state apparatus for collecting and monitoring sales tax would be gone!


It would throw a ton of government employees out of work.

Same reason we can't ever implement single payer health care, it would put a ton of insurance agents out of work.
8   Patrick   2022 Aug 5, 5:59pm  

We can though, if elections become fair.

The first order of business has to be to eliminate fraudulent elections in the US.
9   HunterTits   2022 Aug 5, 6:21pm  

Patrick says


The first order of business has to be to eliminate fraudulent elections in the US.


if that happens @Patrick, can we lift the ban on open posting of titty pics all over PatNet in celebration?

( ● Y ● )
10   Onvacation   2022 Aug 5, 6:40pm  

HunterTits says

if that happens @Patrick, can we lift the ban on open posting of titty pics all over PatNet in celebration?

( ● Y ● )

Let's keep Patnet serious.

Though I, personally, appreciate your finely curated pictures, porn is ubiquitous on the Internet. Free speech is not.
11   just_passing_through   2022 Aug 5, 6:51pm  

Patrick says


OK, I accept the elimination of state income tax and sales tax in return for implementing a land value tax!


If they do that in a state my properties are in I will surely just pass it along to the renters! If it's less than property tax though I'd drop rent.
12   HunterTits   2022 Aug 5, 6:53pm  

just_passing_through says

If they do that in a state my properties are in I will surely just pass it along to the renters! If it's less than property tax though I'd drop rent.


That is what the attack ads against this will say. But in reality, landlords won't be able to do so as much as they like.
13   just_passing_through   2022 Aug 5, 6:58pm  

We'll see, I thought that might be the case raising rents this year to cover the huge tax increases in Texas but the whole market raised rates and made it easy for me.

The state raises taxes more on landlords than they do 'home owners'. Tenants get fucked.
14   Patrick   2022 Aug 5, 8:03pm  

just_passing_through says

If it's less than property tax though I'd drop rent.


Georgism is interesting that way. He would not tax your building at all. Just the land value.

So if your building is worth more than the land, you'd win under Georgism because your total property tax would go down.
15   Patrick   2022 Aug 5, 8:09pm  

HunterTits says

if that happens @Patrick, can we lift the ban on open posting of titty pics all over PatNet in celebration?


Well, it would still cause problems for people at work.
16   REpro   2022 Aug 5, 8:22pm  

Patrick says

OK, I accept the elimination of state income tax and sales tax in return for implementing a land value tax!

Seems like a good place to start.


We already pay Land Value Tax, regardless of it has some improvement or not.
17   clambo   2022 Aug 5, 9:30pm  

Off the subject, herewith an anecdote from a country with not enough land; Japan.

I had a Japanese GF and visited her in Japan once.
Her family lived outside Tokyo in a nice 2 storey house in a nice neighborhood. It was a recent development.

I asked about it and she told me her parents first entered a lottery, and they won the privilege to buy it.

Many scientists and business people I met were renters in Japan since houses were so expensive as was land.

Recall the riots of farmers trying to stop the new airport at Narita since they lost land because of it.
18   Patrick   2022 Aug 6, 11:06am  

REpro says


We already pay Land Value Tax, regardless of it has some improvement or not.


Yes, but not nearly enough. The portion of rent which from land value alone should be taxed at 100%.

And we should not tax the improvements at all, like the buildings. Those things should be taxed at 0%, that is, not taxed at all.

Another way to put it: you should keep 100% of the result of your own labor, but 0% of what you take from other people's labor.
19   just_passing_through   2022 Aug 6, 11:22am  

Patrick says

Another way to put it: you should keep 100% of the result of your own labor, but 0% of what you take from other people's labor.


That's a recipe for disaster and the entire reason we have capital gains taxes with low rates. People would invest less and be willing to risk less.
20   AmericanKulak   2022 Aug 6, 11:59am  

Patrick says


And we should not tax the improvements at all, like the buildings. Those things should be taxed at 0%, that is, not taxed at all.

Exactly. If somebody builds a 20-car garage for their Jay Leno style collection, it should not impact any of their property taxes. Only the underlying asset, the land would be taxes regardless of what's on it. It encourages the best and most developed use.

If we did away with earned income taxes on labor - on the surgeon's salary or the contractors' bill - to reward work. We should not tax improvements to buildings to encourage development and infrastructure.

We should tax Money making Money, but unlike the current system, for people who produce value, like the Surgeon and the Roofer, it only gets taxed once, not twice. That is, we don't tax the income from labor and then again when some of it is saved and used as capital.

We should also tax options given to employees. So the CEO's $1M salary is untaxed, but the 300,000 shares he gets are taxed, either on issue or sale or both.

Finally, we need an AMT for corporations and the Tobin Tax, which is a sales tax on equities. Why is it you pay sales tax on a car or TV, but not when you churn stocks and bonds? It would also tamper down the Quant Trading and other "Liquidity" scams that are frontrunning bullshit.
21   just_passing_through   2022 Aug 6, 12:17pm  

How about we just get rid of most taxes?

Tariffs anyone?
22   just_passing_through   2022 Aug 6, 12:19pm  

On that note it looks like we'll be doubling the size of the IRS this year after all. My dad told me that each new IRS agent will need to collect an additional $1M in tax revenue just to break even on the money they are spending in the Schumer-Manchin bill.
23   Patrick   2022 Aug 6, 1:15pm  

just_passing_through says


Patrick says


Another way to put it: you should keep 100% of the result of your own labor, but 0% of what you take from other people's labor.


That's a recipe for disaster and the entire reason we have capital gains taxes with low rates. People would invest less and be willing to risk less.



@just_passing_through

No, under Georgism capital gains would also be taxed at 0%. It would be zero because the gain on capital results from the trading of things people actually did work to create.

All capital was created by labor, and the laborer has the right to trade it for whatever he wants, and whoever buys it has the right to trade it again for whatever he wants.

Henry George was a capitalist, and claimed that capital and labor are not inherently opposed, but that both are unfairly exploited/taxed by non-productive land owners, people who create and contribute absolutely nothing, but are pure parasites in their role as landowners.
24   Patrick   2022 Aug 6, 1:22pm  

just_passing_through says


How about we just get rid of most taxes?

Tariffs anyone?


Sure, the US ran on tariffs for quite a bit of its early history, proving it is possible.

The absolute open-border free trader types object to tariffs because they say that we would all be better off on average taking advantage of lower wages in other countries, but that ignores the devastation that competition with Chinese labor caused to most of the US between the coasts. So I'm not certain about whether tariffs are good or bad.

The bigger impediment to running the government on tariffs is the 3 million or so people that work for the federal government and would probably lose their jobs if we got rid of most taxes. They have their hands on the real levers of power and are not about to play fair. They will do whatever saves their jobs, including subverting elections.
25   REpro   2022 Aug 6, 3:36pm  

Patrick says

REpro says



We already pay Land Value Tax, regardless of it has some improvement or not.


Yes, but not nearly enough. The portion of rent which from land value alone should be taxed at 100%.

And we should not tax the improvements at all, like the buildings. Those things should be taxed at 0%, that is, not taxed at all.

Another way to put it: you should keep 100% of the result of your own labor, but 0% of what you take from other people's labor.


Many states have real estate to be taxed on 100% Market Value: Including improvement portion and Land portion.
That is including California.
For instance: Someone is buying residential property in Palo Alto. He is paying $3M. The next day he demolished old improvement for purpose to build a new house. The next year will receive a property Tax bill based on his Purchase Price, the Market Value of $3M, which in fact represent Only Land Value.
26   REpro   2022 Aug 6, 3:54pm  

just_passing_through says

On that note it looks like we'll be doubling the size of the IRS this year after all. My dad told me that each new IRS agent will need to collect an additional $1M in tax revenue just to break even on the money they are spending in the Schumer-Manchin bill.


This is how Democrats "Invest" taxpayers' money, to receive more tax money to Save Democracy.
27   Patrick   2022 Aug 6, 4:08pm  

Note that under Georgism most of the infrastructure of the IRS would be eliminated.

All it would need is land records. There would never be any audits, because who owns what land and how much they paid in tax on that land is public record.

But like HunterTits points out, it couldn't be done Constitutionally at the federal level unless the tax was apportioned correctly among the states (by population?) which makes it more complicated.

At the state level though, we could immediately eliminate all state income taxes, sales taxes, and taxes on buildings and simply increase the land value tax instead.

Well, maybe Prop13 is in the way of that in California, which might be one of the reasons Prop13 exists. Land owners want to protect their unjust and unearned land rents. (Not the rent on buildings, just the portion derived from land value.)
28   Patrick   2022 Aug 6, 4:12pm  

REpro says

Many states have real estate to be taxed on 100% Market Value: Including improvement portion and Land portion.
That is including California.
For instance: Someone is buying residential property in Palo Alto. He is paying $3M. The next day he demolished old improvement for purpose to build a new house. The next year will receive a property Tax bill based on his Purchase Price, the Market Value of $3M, which in fact represent Only Land Value.


True that in California coastal areas, most of the price of a house is the value of the land.

The problem is that that land value is not taxed nearly enough. It should be taxed to the point that no one will speculate on land values.
29   Patrick   2022 Aug 6, 4:25pm  

I saw an interesting comment at https://astralcodexten.substack.com/p/your-book-review-progress-and-poverty suggesting that the land value tax could be partly implemented as a capital gains tax on the sale of land.

So if you're living in a house, you wouldn't pay the land value tax, but you would pay a large capital gains tax when the land changes ownership, say at the death of the owner. That capital gains tax would take all of the increase in land value during your time of ownership.

But if you're not personally living in a house, you'd pay the land value tax annually instead.

OTOH, what if the land decreases in value during the time you own it? Does your estate get a tax rebate on that?
30   Patrick   2022 Aug 6, 4:41pm  

From the same link:


Assume for a second we move 50 years into the future. Now ~all owners of the land just inherited it. Should society's wealth really flow to them? What are the incentives? Why tax income, just to preserve their - ultimately based solely on status quo - property rights.


Good point. Income tax is really just a way to pay for the non-productive wealth extraction done by landowners.

That tax revenue should be coming from the landed aristocracy, but instead is extracted from people who work, exactly so that the aristocracy can avoid being taxed.

You pay income tax so that others can avoid being taxed on land value which they did nothing to create.
31   Patrick   2022 Aug 6, 4:45pm  

You know, calculation of land value could be done pretty easily like this:

1. What is the current market price for this property? Call that P.
2. What would be the cost to re-create the current building (or other improvements) on that land? Call that B.

The value of the land is P - B.
32   REpro   2022 Aug 6, 5:30pm  

Patrick says


The problem is that that land value is not taxed nearly enough. It should be taxed to the point that no one will speculate on land values.


How much would you tax Farmlands? Not always are cultivated to the fulness.
Besides, government have "search and hit" hunters to find anything what is not taxed yet.
33   REpro   2022 Aug 6, 5:37pm  

Patrick says

You know, calculation of land value could be done pretty easily like this:

1. What is the current market price for this property? Call that P.
2. What would be the cost to re-create the current building (or other improvements) on that land? Call that B.

The value of the land is P - B.


That partially works only when house burned, and insurance is paying for rebuilding. The new house will get a new assessment anyway.
34   Patrick   2022 Aug 6, 5:47pm  

REpro says

How much would you tax Farmlands? Not always are cultivated to the fulness.


You'd tax it for exactly as much as you could otherwise rent it to a farmer for.

REpro says

That partially works only when house burned, and insurance is paying for rebuilding. The new house will get a new assessment anyway.


I don't see why you say it would not work in general.

Under Georgism, the assessment on the house would be zero.
35   richwicks   2022 Aug 6, 5:50pm  

Onvacation says


Though I, personally, appreciate your finely curated pictures, porn is ubiquitous on the Internet. Free speech is not.


@HunterTits - I want to be serious with you for a second. The WHOLE PURPOSE of the Internet was to democratize information, and it wasn't democratic at all. Still, it's hard to find real actual information today, but it's possible. Maybe Ronald Reagan's son was a total crackwhore like Hunter Biden is, but you'd never know in 1980. Maybe the establishment lied is into Vietnam and lied about the war for years to keep us in there for decades (and we were) but you'd never know it without the Internet.

This device is essentially to expose corruption. The great experiment is, will people ever do anything about it?

Naked ladies? That's fucking EVERYWHERE. Here - quick demo:

https://yandex.com/images/search?from=tabbar&text=nude+beautiful+women

On one hand, I fully recognize that the ability to access pornography is what bought about widespread acceptance of the Internet, but on the other hand, I realize that our "betters" LITERALLY look upon as as animals. Not that we're merely over-sexed or overly lustful, that we are LITERALLY are animals.

Now if the population never gets get rid of this cancer and refuses to actively take it on, I guess they are right. Most of us are animals and they aren't going to treat us like a beloved pet - maybe a FEW of us, but most of us, will just be cattle.

Bill Gates is the largest farmer in the United States. I know what drives that sociopath. He'll let the land be fallow. I think a food crisis is being engineered, but if people don't realize it, they will do nothing about it. Your "news" isn't going to report it.

You need to realize what a revolutionary machine you have in front of you, and I mean revolutionary.

If you're like "well, I'm too old" - no you're not. You've finally reached maturity and can start thinking about something beyond your immediate needs and goals. I'm in Generation X, we're the first generation to have access to EVERYTHING. Wikileaks, look at that shit. That's not going to end with Julian Assange, but it might end with censorship.
36   Patrick   2022 Aug 6, 5:55pm  

Patrick says


You know, calculation of land value could be done pretty easily like this:

1. What is the current market price for this property? Call that P.
2. What would be the cost to re-create the current building (or other improvements) on that land? Call that B.

The value of the land is P - B.


This led me to another thought. Once you have the value of the land separated from that of buildings and other improvements, what should the tax on that land be?

Answer: the prevailing interest rate.

If the land were earning less than the prevailing interest rate through land rent and appreciation, the owner would presumably sell it and buy a different asset which does pay that rate.

Conversely, if land is increasing in value faster than the prevailing interest rate, you'd think that the price would get bid up to the point where the return on land is back in line with the return on other things.
37   Patrick   2022 Aug 6, 5:58pm  

richwicks says

Bill Gates is the largest farmer in the United States.


This is also a good reason for the land value tax. Bill does not farm, he rents out the land. That rent should be taxed 100%.
38   Patrick   2022 Aug 6, 5:59pm  

richwicks says

https://yandex.com/images/search?from=tabbar&text=nude+beautiful+women


Yandex consistently has the best image results of all search engines, imho.
39   Patrick   2022 Aug 6, 6:06pm  

Also interesting about Georgism:

you should always have enough money to pay the tax, since what's being taxed is the money you get in rent above and beyond your wages and the return from your capital.


And if you're not getting rent, well you could get it because you own the land. Part of the point is to disincentivize people who buy land and do nothing with it but wait for the price to rise, hoping to leech off of the increased land value created by the community around the land over time.
40   Reality   2022 Aug 6, 7:23pm  

The real issue, IMHO, should be anti-monopoly / anti-concentration. Contrast the opening of Oklahoma Territory in the mid-19th century vs. the auctioning of Wireless spectrum nearly a century and half later: the low $5 registration fee giving land to American settlers essentially for free enabled cheap food to ship to the East Coast population centers as the farmers would naturally compete and drive price down due to the diverse ownership of the newly available free land. Whereas the high price paid by the bidders at the wireless spectrum auction ensured high price to consumers for many years to come (and the bankruptcy of some of the "winning" bidders).

What is Georgist "land" vs. what is improvement is not clear-cut: as most land anywhere accessible by roads are most likely already heavily improved in the past 500 years even in the US (2000+ years in most of Eurasia); most lots have to be leveled and/or drained before buildable, plus tree removals. If the ideal tax rate on land is the land value multiplied by the prevailing interest rate, then arguably the owner is already paying that by holding onto the land (or borrowing money to buy the land). Keeping trespassers off whatever land has its value (just look at the homeless settlement on "public land" in cities like Seattle). Owning farm land and renting it out to farmers in and of itself (in a competitive market place) is not necessarily "rent-seeking" in the Georgist sense: the owner has simply bought the capitalized value of all the historical improvements done to the farm land, such as cutting all the trees, removing all the stumps, building the irrigation network and the hundred of years preventing tree seedlings from growing into trees and preserving the fertility of the plot of land (e.g. risking Dust-bowl phenomenon). The problem with Gates type becoming the biggest farm land owner is in concentration: they should be prevented from exceeding certain market percentage so as to be able to influence price or stop farming as a way of starving people . . . just like managing houses and providing housing service to people who don't want to own/maintain their own houses is a legit business and has social value (and discrete/competitive ownership among competing small-scale efficient owners/managers is the way to provide the lowest housing cost possible under existing local building codes, contrasting with the tried and failed scheme of using tax money to build public housing) but landlords should be prevented from owning more than 1 (or 2) houses on the same street block (e.g. no more than 10% on any block unless the block has less than 10 houses in total). If someone wants to own many houses, he/the organization has to spread out to many street blocks so that they have to compete against other operators on each street block. That, IMHO, would provide a more efficient way of delivering lower cost housing service than a monopolistic government tax-farming big concentrated landlords (what a high land tax without anti-concentration would result; since we already know bureaucrats serve money and power, it would be dangerous to make bureaucrats' salaries and pensions entirely dependent on a few big landlords).

The real issue is not private ownership vs. public ownership, but competitive ownership vs. concentrated ownership. Market competition brings efficiency, choices therefore "fairness"; whereas concentrated power (regardless whether it's nominal "public" or "private") brings coercion.

Comments 1 - 40 of 57   Next »    Last »

Please register to comment:

about   best comments   contact   latest images   one year ago   suggestions