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Georgism Thread


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2022 Aug 5, 4:00pm   2,377 views  90 comments

by Patrick   ➕follow (48)   💰tip ($0.87 in tips)  

Having read an abridged version of Henry George's Progress and Poverty, I'm trying to clarify in my own mind exactly how it could work, and what legitimate objections might be. Georgeism seems to explain property prices in the Bay Area very well, and how the higher salaries from increased productivity around here get sucked up by non-productive landowners.

These links look pretty good. I just read the first one. They all pretty long, but seem worth the read:

https://astralcodexten.substack.com/p/your-book-review-progress-and-poverty
https://astralcodexten.substack.com/p/does-georgism-work-is-land-really
https://astralcodexten.substack.com/p/does-georgism-work-part-2-can-landlords
https://astralcodexten.substack.com/p/does-georgism-work-part-3-can-unimproved
https://www.theirishstory.com/2016/10/18/the-great-irish-famine-1845-1851-a-brief-overview/

The main impediment, politically, would be the reduction in land prices. But perhaps some tech billionaires would throw their weight behind Georgism purely out of self-interest. They would come out ahead if income tax is reduced as much as the land value tax is raised.



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62   cisTits   2022 Aug 12, 9:47am  

Patrick says

A central point of Georgism is that income tax and sales tax are wrong, because they are unjust and they discourage work and commerce.

They are to be replaced by a tax on land values.


But not in CA. Instead it would be as @Misc sez.
63   Patrick   2022 Aug 17, 11:01am  

From a different group that wants a flat income tax, which is a horrible idea. Yet they have a good strategy which could be applied to Georgism:


1. We issue Key Vote Alerts to all Congressional offices so that Senators and Representatives know exactly how they should vote on proposed legislation.

2. We publish yearly Congressional Scorecards so that constituents know whether or not their legislators are voting in favor of tax cuts, reduced spending, and pro-growth policy.

3. We run hard-hitting independent issue ads on television and radio that expose to constituents the truth about where politicians stand on harmful bills that could raise taxes, increase regulations, and expand the role of the government. NO politician wants to be the feature of one of our ads.
64   Patrick   2022 Aug 20, 11:45pm  

A video recently posted by @richwicks called "All wars are banker's wars" claims that the 16th Amendment creating the federal income tax was never actually approved by the requisite number of states.

Seems easy to prove one way or another.
65   richwicks   2022 Aug 21, 12:06am  

Patrick says


A video recently posted by @richwicks called "All wars are banker's wars" claims that the 16th Amendment creating the federal income tax was never actually approved by the requisite number of states.

Seems easy to prove one way or another.


It has been proven:

https://duckduckgo.com/?t=ffab&q=16th+amendment+never+ratified&ia=web

https://michaelruark.blog/2020/09/12/states-did-not-legally-ratify-the-16th-amendment/

There's a ton of people that talk about it, that's not going to change it. What? Did you think we just abandoned the rule of law recently?

What states ratified it? Who signed it? 3/4 of the states had to approve it, in their legislatures, find the signatures. I thought everybody knew by now.

It doesn't matter. Law doesn't matter. There's no constitutional right to have an FBI or CIA either. Alcohol prohibition had to have an amendment, where's the one for pot, heroin, and LSD? What gives the federal government the right to record internet communication? Why can't I own a nuclear bomb? They just skip over all this shit. It's been this way our entire lives.
66   cisTits   2022 Aug 27, 4:03pm  

For those of you who still don't understand why CA needs an LTV:

As Pinto points out, the cost of actual construction, comprising building materials, labor, and financing, is higher in California than other states. But the biggest difference by far is the gulf in land prices. He cites the case of Santa Clara County. “The average price of a newly built home there is $2.1 million, and the average size is 3,200 square feet. The construction cost is probably $1 million, so the land value is over half the total at $1.1 million.” How about existing homes? They average a meager 1,700 square feet, and go for a norm of $1.3 million. “The fully depreciated value of the house itself might be $200,000,” says Pinto. “As in the case of the new house, the land’s worth $1.1 million.” But for the old-time residence, the land value is multiple that of four walls of aluminum siding and Sheetrock.


https://fortune.com/2022/08/26/california-housing-market-supply-scarcity/
67   Patrick   2022 Aug 27, 4:10pm  

Yes, the price of a "house" in California is almost entirely the price of the land.

This leads to the endless repetition of the same non-sensical story titled some variation on "Look what this crappy 2BR sold for!"

The story always ignores the price of the land. The house itself often has negative value because someone bought that 2BR for the quarter acre of land it sits on and is just going to scrape it and build something else.

The essence of Georgism is to distinguish between non-productive land ownership (which should be taxed heavily) and the productive activity of building or maintaining a house on the land (which should not be taxed at all).
68   cisTits   2022 Aug 27, 4:15pm  

Yup. And land under an ADU would not be taxed, which would spur more ADU development if we had an LTV.
69   Patrick   2022 Aug 27, 4:24pm  

What's an ADU?
70   cisTits   2022 Aug 27, 4:30pm  

Quarter acre lot is about 10,900 sqr feet.

You have a 2,000 square foot house on it, that leaves 8,900 square feet left to tax via LTV.

Therefore, in an LTV system putting in a 1,200 sqr foot ADU that can be rented would be a very profitable addition to that lot. So would subdividing part of it into a second lot (say 5,000 sqr feet) and putting two 2,100 sqr feet homes on it.

In order to make it politically palpable to sell to voters who own their own homes, a grandfather clause would probably have to be in effect where nobody pays more in LTV than they were paying under Prop 13 before the LTV.

But, it will still impact sales prices going forward so that ppl with smaller homes on quarter or more acre lots will probably get a better sale price by doing the subdivision thing as per above or at least installing an ADU as opposed to selling the lot just as is with existing house.

Either way, a lot of land will be unlocked for development and NIMBYism would become very expensive to maintain.
71   Patrick   2022 Aug 27, 4:33pm  

Patrick says

What's an ADU?


I think you should spell it out, because perhaps the majority of people won't know what it is, even on this site.
72   Patrick   2022 Aug 27, 4:53pm  

ZipperTits says


a lot of land will be unlocked for development and NIMBYism would become very expensive to maintain


Yes, this is a primary goal of Georgism. Incentivize efficient use of land, as well as incentivizing labor and commerce by eliminating income tax and sales tax.

And then there would be enormous savings in not having to file or audit income tax returns. And similar savings for eliminating the sales tax bureaucracy.
73   cisTits   2022 Aug 28, 5:54pm  

@Patrick

Check these guys out. I just bought their book from Amazon. Don't know when I will get to it, tho.

https://newphysiocrats.org/platform/
74   cisTits   2022 Aug 28, 5:56pm  

Patrick says

Patrick says


What's an ADU?


I think you should spell it out, because perhaps the majority of people won't know what it is, even on this site.


The definition is in the article I was talking about. https://fortune.com/2022/08/26/california-housing-market-supply-scarcity/
76   Patrick   2022 Sep 10, 5:48pm  

Thanks @ZipperTits

Nice to see Henry George finally getting some coverage.

The elite hate him because he threatens their outright criminal land rents.
77   Patrick   2022 Sep 11, 4:58pm  

ZipperTits says

https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2017/09/the-obscure-economist-henry-george-ayn-rand



When you work for an hour, you increase society’s wealth (and your own) by an hour’s worth of wages. When you save a dollar rather than spending it, you increase society’s (and your own) wealth by a dollar. But when you buy a piece of land for $10,000 and sell it for $20,000, you haven’t increased the total wealth of society by a nickel. Yet the price of land keeps going up, up, up, as the population increases and society grows richer. Where does that money come from? It comes from the pockets of the other two factors of production, labor and capital. ...

Henry George believed that the landlord’s share of wealth that all of us have helped to accumulate is inherently illegitimate and should be confiscated. He wouldn’t send in the National Guard to seize people’s property. He would instead confiscate the value of unimproved land—that is, land that had not been improved by, say, building on it—by taxing its annual value at a rate of 100 percent.

“But,” you’re thinking, “that would make the property itself worthless.” (“That’s not what I’m thinking,” says Arianna, mysteriously.) Well, you’re right. Making the property worthless is the whole idea. Society gets the value of the property. Taxes on the other factors of production—labor and capital—can be reduced, or even eliminated. This is why people who are dedicated to promoting George’s ideas are known as “single-taxers.”

The landlord will have little choice but to put the property to its “highest and best use.” ...

But George got the main things right. Free markets are best (provided they are really free). A lot of markets that masquerade as free really aren’t. And we often tax the wrong things—ignoring wealth that accomplishes nothing while taxing labor and capital that are actually productive.
78   HeadSet   2022 Sep 12, 9:59am  

Patrick says

When you save a dollar rather than spending it, you increase society’s (and your own) wealth by a dollar.

Not so. Wealth is produced by labor. Saving that dollar is just storing the value of previous labor.
80   Misc   2023 Jan 23, 9:18pm  

Quick question, who would want to own land under this tax regime?????

The quick answer is nobody.

Sounds like something the WEF would promote...you will own nothing and be happy.
81   cisTits   2023 Jan 23, 10:01pm  

Misc says

Quick question, who would want to own land under this tax regime?????

The quick answer is nobody.

Sounds like something the WEF would promote...you will own nothing and be happy.


UNDEVELOPED land.

Developed land would not be taxed. Or just the land part.

Current property tax valuations already make distinctions between land and improvements on it.
82   Patrick   2023 Jan 23, 10:05pm  

Thanks @cisTits

Yes, the tax is just on the land, not the improvements or buildings.

@Misc If you read more about Georgism, you'll see that it's much much better than having an income tax and sales tax.
83   Misc   2023 Jan 26, 1:21am  

Again... who would own the land???

It would make zero sense for individuals to own the land as they would be paying taxes for nothing.

So... individuals would not own the land. but instead rent and/or lease it from an altruistic, benevolent entity such as the State, an LGBTQP- NGO, and/or a WEF front organization.

I am certain that these types of organizations would be given special tax treatment that an ordinary citizen could not obtain.

People would end up owning nothing. I doubt that overflowing bliss would occur, however.
84   cisTits   2023 Jan 26, 6:31am  

Misc says

Again... who would own the land???

It would make zero sense for individuals to own the land as they would be paying taxes for nothing.


How is that any different than paying property taxes on undeveloped land today?

Misc says

So... individuals would not own the land. but instead rent and/or lease it from an altruistic, benevolent entity such as the State, an LGBTQP- NGO, and/or a WEF front organization.


Who said that?

Ppl don't own land today either. Not allodially as you seem to describing it.
85   richwicks   2023 Jan 26, 6:41am  

cisTits says

Ppl don't own land today either. Not allodially as you seem to describing it.


I do not believe there is any allodial land in the United States. People who say you can do this, I think are lying. I tried to find an example of it once.
86   Misc   2023 Jan 27, 1:14am  

People would not take title to land where the taxes could shoot up greatly.

Example" Let's say some schmuck under this proposed Georgianism tax scheme bought a piece of property for $ 1 million when the interest rate was 5%. Let's say interest rates went down to roughly 2%. That would increase the value of the property by about $1 million so resulting in the tax of about $1 million. The schmuck would loose everything he ever owned due to this crap tax system.

This system would lead to ownership by the benevolent State, under the best of circumstances. People would own nothing.
87   stereotomy   2023 Jan 27, 1:43am  

Misc says

People would not take title to land where the taxes could shoot up greatly.

Example" Let's say some schmuck under this proposed Georgianism tax scheme bought a piece of property for $ 1 million when the interest rate was 5%. Let's say interest rates went down to roughly 2%. That would increase the value of the property by about $1 million so resulting in the tax of about $1 million. The schmuck would loose everything he ever owned due to this crap tax system.

This system would lead to ownership by the benevolent State, under the best of circumstances. People would own nothing.

Why don't you check out how they do things in Pittsburgh, PA? They have a land value tax (tax on the land only, not improvements). IIRC, property value swings have been far lower in this city - a land value tax stabilizes real estate prices.
88   Misc   2023 Jan 27, 2:43am  

Hey, Howzabout we put in this Georgism tax thingy in now?

You know when property prices are gonna sink because interest rates went up. That way instead of property owners having to pay a tax, the government would send the owners money because their properties went down in value. What was the rate???? --- Oh, it was 100% of the gain so to be fair it should be 100% of the loss...

... and here I was thinking that the Georgism proponents were against "free" money.
89   pudil   2023 Jan 27, 5:24am  

How do you separate the value of improvements from the value of the land?

Let’s say I buy a lot for $100K and build a house on it for $100K. Then I sell the whole thing to another person for $180K.

What’s the value of the land? Is it $80K because the house cost $100K to build? Is it still $100K because I had 30 cats and my house smells like pee and that was the reason for the depreciation?
90   cisTits   2023 Jan 27, 11:47am  

pudil says


What’s the value of the land? Is it $80K because the house cost $100K to build? Is it still $100K because I had 30 cats and my house smells like pee and that was the reason for the depreciation?
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Property taxes are assessed for land and improvements currently. This is nothing new. Look up how they do that.

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