1
0

So if Gold was the new money standard then how would you buy more gold, with GOLD?


 invite response                
2023 Mar 26, 10:59am   13,894 views  189 comments

by Tenpoundbass   ➕follow (7)   💰tip   ignore  

Also with digital currency, if there wasn't any fiat money how would you acquire tokens?

« First        Comments 83 - 122 of 189       Last »     Search these comments

83   Reality   2023 Mar 29, 12:09pm  

Misc says


I would prefer a situation of inflation rather than deflation. Especially when financing something like a house over 30 years. With inflation the rising wages would cause the payment as a percent of income to be lower and lower each year. Whereas, with deflation the payment becomes steadily more unbearable.


The real issue is not inflation vs. deflation, but inflation-expectation at the time of purchase (loan rate set) vs. subsequent reality. If you buy at the time of high inflation due to FOMO, then deflation hits, you the buyer is completely screwed. That's precisely what happened in 1928 to the speculators of Florida swamp land real estate, to the 2005-2007 subprime buyers, and most likely to the FOMO buyers between 2019-2022. The real problem with Fiat Central Banking is that "subsequent reality" is a loaded dice manipulated by bureaucrats who are usually bought and paid for by the banks. That's why we saw government officials encouraging people to buy houses between 2005-2007, and stocks between 1997-1999, near the peaks, so that insiders could unload as the FED extended those bubbles, while roping in the masses, exacerbating wealth polarity.
84   Reality   2023 Mar 29, 12:12pm  

RWSGFY says


Wasn't the Great Depression basically a bout of severe deflation? I don't remember accounts of people being very happy about it.


The Great Depression was the result of FED forcing inflation between 1926-1928 trying to extend the bubble of the "go-go 20's," so that insiders could unload onto the masses.
85   Reality   2023 Mar 29, 12:17pm  

Misc says


The people with assets would be those with inherited wealth. .


False. The overwhelming majority of American billionaires are still self-made. We are not in a purely socialist economy yet, where the wealthy and privileged indeed get their power from inheritance, like the Clintons kids, Gates III, Buffets, Bidens, etc..


As many are finding out today, it is difficult to save when rent is 50% of your pay.


Most people don't pay 50% of their income into renting a house/apartment. Those who do are usually facing results of Section-8 subsidies driving up demand city combined with regulations capping supply. Ironically, a lot of middle class and upper middle class living on the two coasts do have to pay 50% or more of their income into "rent": income taxes at federal, state and local levels combined, i.e. a rent for being alive collected by the now largely hereditory political class.
86   RWSGFY   2023 Mar 29, 12:20pm  

Reality says

RWSGFY says



Wasn't the Great Depression basically a bout of severe deflation? I don't remember accounts of people being very happy about it.


The Great Depression was the result of FED forcing inflation between 1926-1928 trying to extend the bubble of the "go-go 20's," so that insiders could unload onto the masses.


But then deflation kicked in, didn't it? Deflation is good, right? Why nobody was happy about it?
87   Reality   2023 Mar 29, 12:26pm  

HeadSet says


Not for Joe Howmuchamonth. Joe stretches to buy a home on a 30 year mortgage. Then Joe stretches again to buy a car on a 7 year loan. Inflation kicks in. Now Joe sees his nominal wages rise along with the price of his house. The house and car are on fixed rate loans. In 10 years, Joe has a "cheap" monthly mortgage and a paid for car he can trade in to offset the inflation on new cars. I myself am a saver and have not had a residence mortgage since I paid off my first house early, but I recognize the situation of inflation helping the high debt folks.


Depending on whether the debt is fixed-rate over a very long time period, and whether the subsequent inflation reality exceeds the inflation expectations at the time of purchase/loan-interest-setting. People who chase inflation in asset prices often find themselves to be bag-holders. Also, to the extent that people consistently find borrowing to buy anything is advantageous, that in the long run results in society-wide capital-destruction: many companies would run ponzi scams based on hoarding instead of developing real technological advance or business method improvement. To some degree, that's precisely what's been wrong with the single-family residential housing market and even more so the condo market over the past 30+ years. Think what the "iBuyers" were in reality: FOMO inflation chasers trying to flip to even more gullible FOMO buyers, and their own buying drives the bubble to even higher heights than otherwise would be, essentially ponzi scams selling to home buyers and stock buyers.
88   Reality   2023 Mar 29, 12:28pm  

RWSGFY says

Reality says


RWSGFY says




Wasn't the Great Depression basically a bout of severe deflation? I don't remember accounts of people being very happy about it.


The Great Depression was the result of FED forcing inflation between 1926-1928 trying to extend the bubble of the "go-go 20's," so that insiders could unload onto the masses.



But then deflation kicked in, didn't it? Deflation is good, right? Why nobody was happy about it?


LOL! Do you blame the hang-over in the morning on stop-drinking? or is it because the alcohol drinking before it causing the hang-over?
89   Misc   2023 Mar 29, 12:29pm  

Reality says


Misc says


Property transactions today are at a generational low. By your logic this would be an ideal time to buy as this would signal a trough in prices. I would not recommend this course of action


You are confusing volume vs. price. Volume peaks often coincide with turns in price direction, whereas volume troughs usually doesn't signal much of anything. Basic charting / technical analysis. Please do not put words in my mouth; thank you. It usually takes time for people to go through the 5 to 7 phases denial through acceptance. The first period of low volume is usually result of denial on the part of people who recently bought.



I am not putting words in your mouth. You stated:

" There are always more people buying at the peaks than at the bottoms (that's how peaks and bottoms are formed). "

I am pointing out the fallacy of this statement.
90   richwicks   2023 Mar 29, 12:30pm  

RWSGFY says

Reality says


RWSGFY says




Wasn't the Great Depression basically a bout of severe deflation? I don't remember accounts of people being very happy about it.


The Great Depression was the result of FED forcing inflation between 1926-1928 trying to extend the bubble of the "go-go 20's," so that insiders could unload onto the masses.



But then deflation kicked in, didn't it? Deflation is good, right? Why nobody was happy about it?


Inflation was artificially induced by the Federal Reserve extending out credit, this forced people (mostly the poor) who didn't want to use credit, to use credit, when nearly everybody was in debt, they withdrew that credit. The poor lost their assets, the wealthy kept theirs, because they were alerted to the artificial withdrawal of credit.

It's a completely artificial system. It's not a free market at all.

What bankers that engaged in mortgage fraud went to jail, or lost their money in 2007? ICELAND put their bankers in jail, seized their assets, and they did JUST fine.

The Fed is just an organized crime syndicate. The control money creation and destruction, they could drive down housing prices to $10,000 for a mansion if they wanted.
91   Reality   2023 Mar 29, 12:32pm  

Misc says


Reality says


Misc says


Property transactions today are at a generational low. By your logic this would be an ideal time to buy as this would signal a trough in prices. I would not recommend this course of action


You are confusing volume vs. price. Volume peaks often coincide with turns in price direction, whereas volume troughs usually doesn't signal much of anything. Basic charting / technical analysis. Please do not put words in my mouth; thank you. It usually takes time for people to go through the 5 to 7 phases denial through acceptance. The first period of low volume is usually result of denial on the part of people who recently bought.



I am not putting words in your mouth. You stated:

There are always more people buying at the peaks than at the bottoms (...



There are always more people buying at the top than at the bottoms (for both price and volume; volume is self-evident / definitional/totalogical, so the statement is only meaningful for price and that is also observable). That statement doesn't mean every volume trough is a good buying opportunity. Price peaks are usually formed by all the fools rushing in creating massive volume spike; price bottoms usually involve a bottom-building process by experienced investors ("stronger hands") who are willing to take the risk catching (what previously had been) falling knives and can still generate profit from operations even if the asset price keeps dropping, so it is not a volume trough per se, but usually a volume increase (accumulation pattern) compared to the recent way down but not quite as high volume as at the price top.
92   Misc   2023 Mar 29, 12:52pm  

Hate to break this to you, but the peasants just pulled off the heist of the century against the bankers and their "controlled" apparatchiks at the Fed.

Low interest rates drove a massive increase in homeowners seeking refinances, doubling from 7.1 million applications in 2018 to 15 million in 2020.

... and about 25% of homeowners refinanced in 2021.

They locked in rates of about 3% for 30 years. Short term rates from the Fed are about 4.5% now.

About $2.6 trillion of these low rate mortgages are on the Fed's balance sheet. The rest are held by other "criminal" banks paying their customers more than they are getting in interest from this.

For people out to rule the world, they are going about it in a peculiar way.

Looks like that "fear of missing out" went the other way.
93   Reality   2023 Mar 29, 12:59pm  

The artificially low interest rate drove up the prices (loan size) for buyers and refinances that had a cash-out component. The banks were not losing money by offering a lower interest rate so long as they are allowed to extend-and-pretend "hold to maturity" or sell the loan off to others; on the contrary, they were making money from refinance fees before selling off the loans to other ponzi scams that suck in retirement and pension funds. The heist was against retirement fund account holders and pension fund account holders.

Now the borrowers on low interest rates are locked in, unable to sell and relocate.
94   Eric Holder   2023 Mar 29, 12:59pm  

richwicks says

The poor lost their assets


But earlier in the thread somebody said that deflation is GOOD for working people w/o assets. Why these types weren't happy during high deflation either?
95   Reality   2023 Mar 29, 1:04pm  

Eric Holder says


But earlier in the thread somebody said that deflation is GOOD for working people w/o assets. Why these types weren't happy during high deflation either?


Were you not happy when PC price dropped from $10,000 in 1980 to $500 in 2000? or not happy when functional cellphone with a big touch screen dropped from $1000 in 2000 to $150 today? Mild deflation is what brings improvement in standards of living for the society at large. The deflation between 1929-1933 was not a mild deflation but a massive crash that had loans attached to the assets. The problem was the loans and the manipulation of loan interest rates and collateral values. If banks didn't exist to extend loans to buy real estate, and there was no margin loans for stock trading, the pain would not have been nearly as much.
96   richwicks   2023 Mar 29, 1:05pm  

Misc says

They locked in rates of about 3% for 30 years. Short term rates from the Fed are about 4.5% now.


All this is going to result in is that the next generation will never be able to buy a home.

Good job!

Bankers will own everything in time.
97   richwicks   2023 Mar 29, 1:07pm  

Eric Holder says

But earlier in the thread somebody said that deflation is GOOD for working people w/o assets.


It is, provided they don't lose their jobs.

Putting everybody into debt makes then subservient to the whims of the Federal Reserve.
98   Tenpoundbass   2023 Mar 29, 1:24pm  

Who are the morons that claims "Deflation" is bad?

Today that would simply mean the correction on the artificial inflation created from the Bush Gas and Oil manipulation, the RE manipulation, the Banking collapse of 2008, every Hurricane and disaster price pressures, the Food shortage inflation the intentional stoppage of manufacturing and hard goods. All of which is firmly now baked into our economy with no intention of ever being self corrected if the Fuckers that brought us these manipulated inflation(that they flat out ignore!) have anything to say about it.

There's a hard correction coming and is long over due, the elite know it, and is why they are fighting like hell, gaslighting every American non middle class entity in the Universe to fight against it. These cretins are convinced that they are entitled to these inflated gouged prices, and the POCs are under the understanding that as long as cost of living is beyond their means. Then they will get every 6 figure government job out there, and still get their section 8 stipends and other Entitlements.
These worthless fucks would gladly work for Company script.
99   Eric Holder   2023 Mar 29, 1:32pm  

richwicks says

Eric Holder says

But earlier in the thread somebody said that deflation is GOOD for working people w/o assets.

It is, provided they don't lose their jobs.


Wait, so deflation causes job losses and increase in unemployment? Because if it doesn't why would losing a job be a problem? Just get another one, amirite?
100   Misc   2023 Mar 29, 1:38pm  

Reality says

The artificially low interest rate drove up the prices (loan size) for buyers and refinances that had a cash-out component. The banks were not losing money by offering a lower interest rate so long as they are allowed to extend-and-pretend "hold to maturity" or sell the loan off to others; on the contrary, they were making money from refinance fees before selling off the loans to other ponzi scams that suck in retirement and pension funds. The heist was against retirement fund account holders and pension fund account holders.

Now the borrowers on low interest rates are locked in, unable to sell and relocate.


These were refinancings on properties that were already purchased. The banks are losing money on them because they are paying a higher interest rate than they are receiving on their "hold to maturity" assets. If they sell the loans off to others, they take their loss now all at once. Retirement and pension funds stayed away from these MBS (instead they are more into high yield ponzis). Nope, it's the financial institutions and the Fed itself who are the bag holders. The borrowers are not "locked" in they can sell and/or rent as they please unless prices drop below what they paid for the homes many years ago.
101   Misc   2023 Mar 29, 1:43pm  

richwicks says

Misc says


They locked in rates of about 3% for 30 years. Short term rates from the Fed are about 4.5% now.


All this is going to result in is that the next generation will never be able to buy a home.

Good job!

Bankers will own everything in time.


Not at all. Wages can increase until people can afford the new homes to be built.
102   Reality   2023 Mar 29, 1:51pm  

Misc says


These were refinancings on properties that were already purchased. The banks are losing money on them because they are paying a higher interest rate than they are receiving on their "hold to maturity" assets.


Losing what money? The home mortgage borrowers are paying on time. The money (principle of the loan) had been created out of thin air to lend to the borrowers; it's not as if the bank had to borrow every dollar to lend out.


If they sell the loans off to others, they take their loss now all at once.


They don't have to, as the FED is standing at the ready to pay/"swap" at face value and hold to maturity (i.e. 5% or higher interest rate for you the real productive member of society to borrow but 0% interest rate for the losers)


Retirement and pension funds stayed away from these MBS (instead they are more into high yield ponzis). Nope, it's the financial institutions and the Fed itself who are the bag holders. The borrowers are not "locked" in they can sell and/or rent as they please unless prices drop below what they paid for the homes many years ago.


Pension and retirement funds/portfolios usually have a broad mix of bonds due to their legal / fiduciary requirements

The borrowers are locked in due to the high prices that they paid for the collateral (due to the low interest rate inflating asset price) and/or the cash-out during refinancing (the latter is akin to teaser-rate predatory lending). You do realize "financial institutions" and "the Fed itself" are artificial concepts, right? For example, there is not a person named "SVB," but the people receiving massive bonuses out of "SVB" before it closed door were real people (being paid to cover up the fraud); people who withdrew enormous sums in violation of their covenant to bank exclusively with "SVB" in exchange for the massive amount of loans that they took out of "SVB" (likely where much of the hundreds of billion "deposit" came from, loans from the same "SVB", creating money out of thin air) were real people ). Likewise, people getting high pay from "the FED" and take "swap" money at face value from "the FED" for heavily discounted paper are real people (or real people hiding behind another layer of fictional entities for whom they pretend to work but in reality enriching themselves using those fictional entities). In other words, both "SVB" and "the Fed" are fictional entities in whose name some people are taking out massive amount of money for themselves, diluting the money that real workers and real entrepreneurs have in their pockets and accounts, essentially robbing real workers and real productive entrepreneurs.
103   Misc   2023 Mar 29, 2:13pm  

The banks are paying a higher rate to savers than they are receiving from the MBS on their books. That is how they are losing money. Yes, they do have to borrow every dollar they loan out except for the stockholder's equity.

The Fed is not "at the ready" to pay/swap at face value. You are mistaken on the Fed's lending program. They will loan at "face value", but will charge current interest rates. The banks still lose money...just slower than selling at a loss all at once.

They borrowers are not "locked in". These were REFINANCINGS of mortgages taken out for properties bought years before.

People at the Fed are not super highly paid. They are on the same pay scale as other government employees.

The real people are those that refinanced their mortgages at a record low interest rate for a record amount of trillions of dollars.

The banks and the Fed are sitting on record losses. If you mark to market.
104   richwicks   2023 Mar 29, 2:15pm  

Eric Holder says

Wait, so deflation causes job losses and increase in unemployment?


Dude, if you asked what 2+2 was, and I explained it to you, you'd pretend not to understand, so why should I bother?

You can't wake a person that pretends to sleep.
106   Reality   2023 Mar 29, 2:38pm  

Misc says


The banks are paying a higher rate to savers than they are receiving from the MBS on their books. That is how they are losing money. Yes, they do have to borrow every dollar they loan out except for the stockholder's equity.


Do you not understand what fractional-reserve banking is? Even if there were a 10% reserve requirement, the bank paying 4% interest on $1M deposits (and they are not paying that much except for on CD's and only starting the last few weeks) allows it to lend out $10M, even at the lowest 30yr fixed mortgage rate there ever was at about 2.75%, the annual interest income would be $275k, to pay an annual interest expense of $40k on the $1M. How is that losing money? Seems there is a 273k - 40k = $233k gross profit; i.e. 233 / 40 = 582.5% gross profit margin! The real reserve requirement is much lower than 10%; currently sub-5% or near 0%, so the gross profit margin is even higher. If instead of renting money and renting out money, renting office space and renting them out could get 582.5% gross profit margin, WeWorks would be the most valuable company in the world. Too bad, office space can not be ficticiously multiplied out of thin air.

As you can see, under fractional reserve banking, operating a bank is extremely profitable (if the risk of bank run is removed). It usually takes serious incompetence and/or massive fraud for a bank to fail. The massive amount of profit a bank makes under fractional reserve banking literally comes out of the backs of real workers and real entrepreneurs.

Misc says


The Fed is not "at the ready" to pay/swap at face value. You are mistaken on the Fed's lending program. They will loan at "face value", but will charge current interest rates. The banks still lose money...just slower than selling at a loss all at once.


LOL! See the math above. Why isn't everyone offered a sub-5% loan interest rate when there is a cash shortage?

Misc says

;
They borrowers are not "locked in". These were REFINANCINGS of mortgages taken out for properties bought years before.


A lot of borrowers were borrowing to buy over-priced homes due to the artificially low interest rate, and over 80% of refinances have cash-out component (i.e. fell for the teaser rate if they ever have to move).

Misc says


People at the Fed are not super highly paid. They are on the same pay scale as other government employees.


If they are not being paid more than they would be paid elsewhere, they wouldn't take the job . . . unless some form of bribery (consulting for the regulated corporations after working for the FED) is baked into the career compensation map.

Misc says


The real people are those that refinanced their mortgages at a record low interest rate for a record amount of trillions of dollars.


In exchange for not being able to transfer the same monthly payment to a comparable house elsewhere. i.e. the borrower is locked in, and subject to arbitrary raises in property taxes and insurances, as well as vagaries of job change.

Misc says


The banks and the Fed are sitting on record losses. If you mark to market.


Perhaps they should be forced to mark to market and be bankrupted.
107   stereotomy   2023 Mar 29, 2:56pm  

Reality says

Eric Holder says



But earlier in the thread somebody said that deflation is GOOD for working people w/o assets. Why these types weren't happy during high deflation either?


Were you not happy when PC price dropped from $10,000 in 1980 to $500 in 2000? or not happy when functional cellphone with a big touch screen dropped from $1000 in 2000 to $150 today? Mild deflation is what brings improvement in standards of living for the society at large. The deflation between 1929-1933 was not a mild deflation but a massive crash that had loans attached to the assets. The problem was the loans and the manipulation of loan interest rates and collateral values. If banks didn't exist to extend loans to buy real estate, and there was no margin loans for stock trading, the pain would not have been nearly as much.

The really nasty thing about the depression in the 30's was that all loans were callable. So the banks called in all the loans that were almost paid off, and the debtors, who were practically paid off, had their assets seized. The banks didn't even get around to the 100% LTV people before public outrage ended the mass evictions.
108   richwicks   2023 Mar 29, 3:04pm  

Patrick says







I heard this earlier and doubted and, I was about to say so, but I looked it up in:

https://www.wikileaks.org/clinton-emails/

This is the email they are probably talking about:

https://www.wikileaks.org/clinton-emails/emailid/6528


This gold was accumulated prior to the current rebellion and was intended to be used to establish a pan-African currency
based on the Libyan golden Dinar. This plan was designed to provide the Francophone African Countries with an
alternative to the French.franc (CFA).

(Source Comment: According to knowledgeable individuals this quantity of gold and silver is valued at more than $7
billion. French intelligence officers discovered this plan shortly after the current rebellion began, and this was one of the
factors that influenced President Nicolas Sarkozy's decision to commit France to the attack on Libya. According to these
individuals Sarkozy's plans are driven by the following issues:

a. A desire to gain a greater share of Libya oil production,

b.Increase French influence in North Africa,

UNCLASSIFIED U.S. Department of State Case No. F-2014-20439 Doc No. C05779612 Date: 12/31/2015

c. Improve his intemai political situation in France,

d. Provide the French military with an opportunity to reassert its position in the world,

e. Address the concern of his advisors over Qaddafi's long term plans to supplant France as the dominant power in


So it wasn't DIRECTLY about the gold dinar, it was the fact that Qaddafi could continue to pay for stuff even if he was cut off from all the world's banking system. The a-e bullet points tells you why the US attacked Libya, even if it was on France's behalf.
109   Misc   2023 Mar 29, 3:12pm  

Reality says

Misc says



The banks are paying a higher rate to savers than they are receiving from the MBS on their books. That is how they are losing money. Yes, they do have to borrow every dollar they loan out except for the stockholder's equity.


Do you not understand what fractional-reserve banking is? Even if there were a 10% reserve requirement, the bank paying 4% interest on $1M deposits (and they are not paying that much except for on CD's and only starting the last few weeks) allows it to lend out $10M, even at the lowest 30yr fixed mortgage rate there ever was at about 2.75%, the annual interest income would be $275k, to pay an annual interest expense of $40k on the $1M. How is that losing money? Seems there is a 273k - 40k = $233k gross profit; i.e. 233 / 40 = 582.5% gross profit margin! The real reserve requirement is much lower than 10%; currently sub-5% or near 0%, so th...


Fractional Reserve banking is for the system as a whole and creates CREDIT.

Do you understand accounting? Where assets equal liabilities+ owner's equity. This is a requirement for banks too ! ! ! (Hint: You can look at any bank's balance sheet at any financial website)That 4% payment on liabilities is on all the liabilities not 10% of the liabilities. Currently the reserve requirement is set at 0%. The amount that can be loaned is based on the bank's equity.

Running a bank is usually profitable, but not to the extent of the make believe thought that you only have to pay interest on a fraction of the total liabilities.

We are talking about Refinancings not purchases. The homes went up in value after they had purchased with the original mortgage.

It is that way with every government job.

The rest is self-explanatory.
110   Reality   2023 Mar 29, 3:12pm  

stereotomy says


The really nasty thing about the depression in the 30's was that all loans were callable. So the banks called in all the loans that were almost paid off, and the debtors, who were practically paid off, had their assets seized. The banks didn't even get around to the 100% LTV people before public outrage ended the mass evictions.


Very good point! This also reminds me why the banksters were paying WHO, Fauci, and etc. to run the scamdemic and toxxine to kill people: when people die, any home mortgage remaining effectively becomes callable! That explains why they want the working age people take the toxxine.
111   HeadSet   2023 Mar 29, 5:49pm  

Misc says

Wages can increase until people can afford the new homes to be built.

Maybe, but that does not appear to be the trend. It looks more like an old timer with a single-family home will sell to a buyer that can only afford it by living multi-generation. That is, grandparents and grown kids also live in the home and share the cost. Around here, the starting wage is about $15/hr, but 2-bedroom apartments are still out of reach for a combined earning of two making $15/hour each. Therefore, some landlords have specialized in renting rooms and pairing people up in multi-room apartments.
112   PeopleUnited   2023 Mar 29, 8:22pm  

Misc says

If you work for a living and are in debt, deflation would reduced your wages until you could not make payments and you would lose whatever you went into debt to obtain.

The people with the assets would sit back and collect it all.

Cool story bro. I suppose you believe the Covid lies too?
113   PeopleUnited   2023 Mar 29, 8:31pm  

HeadSet says


I recognize the situation of inflation helping the high debt folks.

If the high debt folks are not able to save for retirement in a way that massively beats inflation they still lose. Besides that we are talking about a small minority who can walk that tightrope. And they are still debt slaves even if they are lucky enough to time the inflation wave and surf it into shore. They probably won’t have much to leave their kids since their house will be their main asset, which will likely be sold for end of life care, if it is even paid off. Such is the life of the debt slave. Sorry kids, we inflated away your inheritance.
114   Misc   2023 Mar 29, 9:14pm  

Since 1913, the price of silver has gone up about 3.3% per year vs the dollar (yes that includes those crazy spending Covid years).

Do you realize the percentage of earnings that would need to be saved for retirement with a return like that?

I know ... I'm using that racist math again.
115   Zak   2023 Mar 29, 10:30pm  

Misc says

Since 1913, the price of silver has gone up about 3.3% per year vs the dollar


Well here is a simple chart for you that shows that relationship:
https://www.macrotrends.net/1470/historical-silver-prices-100-year-chart

Hint: take off log scale and inflation adjustment to see the effect of inflation!!!

Funny enough, there is no need to talk about "investing" in silver/gold up until the late 1960's! This is when the government started printing dollars not backed by the metal in the bank.

So if you take your 3.3% per year, and subtract out all the flat years between 1913 and 1971, to when nixon took us off the commodity standard, you will see that an ounce of silver (which has not changed at ALL and has been NON-productive) went from $1.50 to $23 (over 14x!!!). So it's not that silver went up. The dollar went DOWN!!

this is about 5.5 ~6 % annual, not 3.3%

Is that racist math too?
116   Misc   2023 Mar 29, 11:22pm  

Zak says

Misc says


Since 1913, the price of silver has gone up about 3.3% per year vs the dollar


Well here is a simple chart for you that shows that relationship:
https://www.macrotrends.net/1470/historical-silver-prices-100-year-chart

Hint: take off log scale and inflation adjustment to see the effect of inflation!!!

Funny enough, there is no need to talk about "investing" in silver/gold up until the late 1960's! This is when the government started printing dollars not backed by the metal in the bank.

So if you take your 3.3% per year, and subtract out all the flat years between 1913 and 1971, to when nixon took us off the commodity standard, you will see that an ounce of silver (which has not changed at ALL and has been NON-productive) went...


If you want to use the year we were taken off the gold standard instead of the year the Fed was created, you can and it ends up with the rate of about 5.5% vs the DOLLAR. If everyone was on the gold/silver standard the rate of return is ZERO.

The percentage of income that would need to be saved for retirement simply could not be achieved. Retirement is a fairly modern construct requiring fiat currency.
117   Zak   2023 Mar 29, 11:34pm  

Misc says

If everyone was on the gold/silver standard the rate of return is ZERO

Isn't this what we are saying!?! Yes. You get the point. No need for a return on cash in a savings account if your cash isn't devaluing at 5.5% per year on average!
118   Misc   2023 Mar 29, 11:44pm  

Zak says


Misc says


If everyone was on the gold/silver standard the rate of return is ZERO

Isn't this what we are saying!?! Yes. You get the point. No need for a return on cash in a savings account if your cash isn't devaluing at 5.5% per year on average!



There is also no way to get a return higher than ZERO because of system collapse and no way to save.
119   Reality   2023 Mar 30, 8:56am  

Misc says


Fractional Reserve banking is for the system as a whole and creates CREDIT.

Do you understand accounting? Where assets equal liabilities+ owner's equity. This is a requirement for banks too ! ! ! (Hint: You can look at any bank's balance sheet at any financial website)That 4% payment on liabilities is on all the liabilities not 10% of the liabilities. Currently the reserve requirement is set at 0%. The amount that can be loaned is based on the bank's equity.


The way SVB was operated, requring exclusive banking relationship in lending to banking clients that no other bank would lend to, essentially resulted in itself being "the system": both sides of a borrow-to-buy in the tech sector would be banking with SVB; the collateral "asset" was essentially measured in SVB plantation scripts pretending to be the Dollar. The SVB plantation script was not supposed to be cashed out for the federal reserve dollar to be parked at other banking institutions (per the exclusive banking agreement). When SVB lost money due to internal mismangement of funds, they allowed the clients to break the exclusive banking agreement to cash out the SVB plantation script for dollars, letting the "run on the bank" (which it wasn't as the script was only valued under the exclusive banking agreement, and was never supposed to be cashed out en masse for the federal reserve dollars at other banking institutions). Therefore allowing the mass transfer to take place was the heist! and having the FDIC stepping in to equate SVB plantation script to federal reserve notes was the second heist!

Misc says


The percentage of income that would need to be saved for retirement simply could not be achieved. Retirement is a fairly modern construct requiring fiat currency.

There is also no way to get a return higher than ZERO because of system collapse and no way to save.


Ironic you should make the argument that fiat central banking helps savings and retirement. You don't seem to realize that 15+% of a worker's income are forcibly taken away through payroll tax and/or self-employment tax and wasted right away (Social Security tax revenue is put into a special type of non-marketable treasury notes; i.e. a script that has no market value). i.e. government savings for retirement is entirely a Ponzi scam relying on current workers to pay for retirees, with nothing saved up. That's why the "Vaxx" toxxination was invented to kill people. That's also why wars are being fanned to kill (East) Europeans because their demographics are turning around, soon to have declining working population, therefore there public retirement "safetynet" will have negative cash flow. In reality, almost all wealth management funds are also ponzi scams after accounting for full economic cycles, as is the entire banking and financing industry. That's why banksters have been promoting wars and "pandemics" to kill people, for hundreds of years if not thousands of years. Please do not show us the stock indices, as almost all funds under-perform the indices. If someone who can consistently out-perform the indices, they'd be trading for themselves instead of allowing millions of strangers to share the pleasure of exploitng specific market inefficiencies of limited size (market profit comes from exploiting market inefficiencies; a perfectly efficient market would have no profit for anyone, and would not even continue to exist as there wouldn't be money to pay for transaction cost). The average performance of the financial industry is negative-return over the full economic cycles if we use real inflation adjustors (without hedonic adjustment, which reflects technological improvement that in a sound money system would show gradual increasing purchasing power of the sound money).

What the fiat money central banking system creates is the illusion of profit via understating inflation and/or setting specific time windows that doesn't capture the entire economic cycle (bubble and bust). As you admitted/agreed, people working for the FED wouldn't be working there if they could make more money in private sector unless the career compensation map includes bribery/corruption pay-back such as fat consulting pay from the regulated industries after retiring from the regulator positions. I'd add, likewise for large banking institutions too: people who have real business acumen would trade for themselves instead of working for large banking institutions or funds unless there is coercive element available through working in large institutions. So how exactly do those market manipulating regulations/coercions and corrupt payback/bribery enhance return for savings and retirement of the general public? They don't. Fiat Central Banking only create a scam robbing the masses to enrich a tiny group of Narcissistic few.

The classic intellectual defense for Fiat Central Banking actually is the opposite argument: it enables the robbing of "excessive savings" to put the resources towards new inventions and financing for wars. Well, we now know what the "new inventions" are, like Theranos, Moderna and many other "unicorns" funded by frauds like SVB and Gates fundation; because large financial institutions attract "woke" followers who misallocate resources, not independent thinkers capable of discovering real market opportunities. We also know wars are designed to kill savings/retirement/pension account holders (so as to eliminate liabilities to banks), while impoverishing the living domestic workers via tax-subsidized imports (i.e. subsidizing foreign slavers).

Under a sound money system, workers would be able to keep that 15+% for themselves as savings. Savings don't have to grow in numerical face amount if purchasing power is gradually increasing thank to technological improvement (think computers, cellphones that declined in price over decades) in a mildly price-deflationary market; total money supply will be increasing at pace with other mineral use (silver is a byproduct of the industrial mining of zinc, lead, tin and etc.) which should be slightly slower than products and services available because new technology enable better and more profitable use of mineral resources (i.e. a "sustainable society" would be built-in side benefit of a sound money system, instead of the current fiat FOMO scams promoting waste). Domestic workers would also have more stable jobs working real productive jobs instead of being enticed into zero-sum or negative-sum financial machinations and how to profit from foreign slave-labors/slavers (what the military-industrial-banking complex is, and is rapidly becoming slavers and slaves themselves).
120   Tenpoundbass   2023 Mar 30, 11:13am  

Folks going on about Gold and Silver going up over time, while not mentioning the intentional precious metals manipulation on a massive scale during the RE and bank collapse under Bush and Obama are not being honest with themselves. We saw Gold go from $300 an Oz to over $1600 in the blink of an eye. And the same happened to silver, only it eventually came back down some.

Gold manipulation is a sound argument for paper currency. At least fiat money supply is more fungible than Gold. Everyone is trading the same dollars. I promise you all that under Gold, you're issued tokens or script in exchange for your labor. You can't save up those financial means to improve your situation.
You have to acquire gold. But those with the Gold will continue to make that impossible. By inflating its value. Which if you think about it, what good is placing a value on Gold if you can't buy it with fiat currency? Which is the point of this thread.
Gold made sense in a time when it was the only means. In that economy inflation through greed did not and could not exist. Only supply and demand could affect costs. To go on Gold now, we would have to roll back the economy across the board with deflation on a massive scale, just to get to where Gold could be used to operate even in the Company Store paying you script scenario I say it will create.

Value of anything is not intrinsic it's inert. So therefor the money supply must inflate and deflate to accommodate the exuberance when people can't tell the difference. Les you end up with Monopolies and Robber Barons.
121   Reality   2023 Mar 30, 11:43am  

10lbs says:


Gold manipulation is a sound argument for paper currency. At least fiat money supply is more fungible than Gold. Everyone is trading the same dollars. I promise you all that under Gold, you're issued tokens or script in exchange for your labor. You can't save up those financial means to improve your situation.


All the short-comings of a gold-only monetary standard are about a monopoly manipulating the prices/values of the warehouse receipts (Comex and London Gold Fix are about trading warehouse receipts, i.e. paper gold, not real gold). The Fiat Central Banking system is an even more thorough (i.e. unaccountable to public) monopoly supporting the Robber Barons unless you want to allow everyone to print their own paper money and journal entries and call it dollar like SVB was doing and FDIC would step in to back up every single privately printed "dollar" the printer's friends have deposited back into the printer's journals. It would be as if FDIC stepped in to back "Tether" or all other crypto "dollar-equivalent"; that's more or less what FDIC did when it stepped in to back up all the SVB-dollars that SVB had lent out to its banking clients (that no other bank would lend) on condition that they bank exclusively with the bank (i.e. requiring the seller to deposit all proceeds into the same bank that the buyer had borrowed from, essentially removing check-and-balance in lending standards and grossly inflating value of collateral "assets" being purchased; it's a Ponzi Scheme relying on participants not cashing out at par value into outside dollars).

If you are worried about gold-only monetary standards being manipulated by banksters hoarding gold and giving the people only warehouse receipts and fake warehouse receipts to manipulate the ups and downs of inflation/deflation, then advocate the return of the original Bimetalism of this republic.
122   Zak   2023 Mar 30, 3:11pm  

Misc says


There is also no way to get a return higher than ZERO because of system collapse and no way to save.


This is laughable. You really have zero concept of what generating a return means.

First, lets look at increase in the (metal) commodity supply. Miners. Miners will be bringing new metal into the market. The US mint would directly exchange raw input material for coined currency. Thus new money is created. Lets say the miner gets 20 coins.

Second, some entities will be buying metals and converting them into finished products or portions of finished products. the consumers of those products
will be paying a higher amount of metal for the output product than goes in as input to the product. Thus here is 1 provable method of "generating a return" on a loan of physical metal. MORE concretely: if you give a jeweler a 1 oz gold coin, they might give you a 1/3 oz gold ring!

Therefore, the jeweler could borrow 10oz of gold from the miner to create 30 rings, sell them, pay his lender 11 gold coins, and still have 19 oz of gold remaining. Thus generating a 19x return on his 1 oz interest fee.

A miner, after mining his new gold, now has 10 1oz coins from his work, and a 10oz loan to the local jeweler. He goes to the merchant and buys some digging equipment. Now the equipment dealer has some of the newly minted gold, and from there it circulates further into the economy. Probably to some of the people buying those gold rings.

You act like this system didn't work for millenia. It's really weird.

« First        Comments 83 - 122 of 189       Last »     Search these comments

Please register to comment:

api   best comments   contact   latest images   memes   one year ago   random   suggestions